Metro R.I.P.
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Is th metro not to be funded primarily through private finance? Seriously folks if we want to secure our economic future we need this sort of infrastructure which is considered basic in most countries outside of sub saharan Africa.
@darkman wrote:
Is th metro not to be funded primarily through private finance? Seriously folks if we want to secure our economic future we need this sort of infrastructure which is considered basic in most countries outside of sub saharan Africa.
the EU might help out if we behave:D… alot of the money ends up as bank fees insurance ect…
As far as I’m aware the reason for the high €6bn figure is because there’s private finance involved i.e. they’re not paying to build it in a straight forward way, they’re using a PPP, they’re getting someone else to build it with their own money (borrowed or financed at market rates – higher than gov rates) and then paying them back over 30 years!
therefore the cost is massive so it will be a lot more expensive than if the government just put the money up itself or borrowed the money itself.
:confused:
What do you mean pay them back? the private consortium contributes capital investment for construction costs in exchange for a contract to run the metro for a set amount of years after which it will be transfered to public ownership. Same story as the toll roads and the luas which are operated by NTR and Veloa respectively
Sure we all knew that the Metro was Pie in the Sky just like everything else here. It’s a wonder the port tunnel was built at all.
@shweeney wrote:
its the money!
its the money!!
its the money!!!metro north looks great on paper and I’d love to see something like that in the city, but I don’t think we can possibly justify spending €6 billion on it. If you were to spend just €1billion on a proper bus service for the city you could something much more wide-reaching and effective in a fraction of the time.
And I’m not talking about giving the money to Dublin Bus, – we could create a new network from scratch with properly though-out routes, priority measures and passenger information systems, possibly augmenting an expanded Luas network, again with proper priority which the existing network does not have.
If we could build the Metro for a billion (how much did Madrid’s cost??) then fine, but 6 billion is outrageous and not justifiable for a project that only serves a small area of the city.
The cost is high, but building a whole new bus service or expanding the luas presents it’s own problems. For example anything other than a high speed metro link would run out of capacity very quickly.
Secondly we all know that air heads park on the so called QBC on Dorset street so more QBC’s would have similar issues. They have to wait at traffic junctions. The shortage of road space in the city center is an issue.
The luas is also subject to traffic lights and air head drivers that try to play chicken with the luas at junctions by parking in yellow boxesI’m curious if the EPA has tested the air quality on the corner of ulster bank college green and that pub facing the tourist office at around 5:35 on a hot still afternoon… The fact is people are so close to those fumes that i’m surprised the HSE has not intervened…. everywhere I look in dublin the buildings are black and the footpaths are black.
The metro said traffic is slower than a horse and cart in dubiln…
I think everyone here would be happy to spend 20 times as much money on a dublin metro rather than NDP roads for the next 20 years????
I’m still curious as to why transport prices are high in Dublin?????? are they???
the metro in rome is still 1 euro after 3 years???? I think the ticket price should be set by the board..
and what ever happened to a ticket that is valid for 90 minutes does such thing exist…why not extend the malahide dart line on over around the estury and to the airport – rather than a whole new line out from the city. with some lateral thinking that could also serve swords and ballymun
the northern Dart line is allredy over capacity. With DART Commuter and intercity services running on it. Also Connolly and the Loopline cannot accomidate anymore train movements. Therefor a spur off the DART line to the airport is not feasable
As much as the metro costs a lot and that it would be cheaper to just have more buses that has a lot of problems. There are a large amount of buses in Dublin already and if there is to be a marked increase then it would just add to traffic. Also buses are subject to traffic lights.
I don’t know if anyone has noticed this or maybe it is just on my normal bus route of the 39 but why are there bus stops BEFORE major traffic lights. It annoys me that you wait ages in the queue to go through the traffic lights to halt right beside them for people to get on and off and by that stage you’re stuck again at the sam traffic lights that if they had it AFTER the traffic lights,a hundred metres or more you could pull out and away and not into traffic lights. That’s my rant.
I live very close to Castleknock train station. Kind of in between the station and Blanchardstown village where the evil 39 is. I would gladly take the train than the bus as you don’t have to factor in the what-if-theres-bad-traffic time. I can be either late or early with buses due to traffic. Trains are generally better, especially metro etc. You have a time table, you know when the train is going to be there. It is not a question of waiting forever, not knowing when a bus comes and then 3 come-one packed and two empty.
Planners seem to neglect the fact that although the initial costs are high once it is built it is there, forever possibly. London Underground is using the same tubes as 150 years ago. Increased capacity over time is better invested in extra trains with higher occupancy rates than roads with single commuters (something that irks me in the mornings seeing people in traffic one person to each car almost). It is better for the environment and better for later planning.
As much as the M50 upgrade is needed the 1bn or so is a capital investment after the possible 1bn or so taking into inflation that the m50 took to build and finish only a few years ago. And talking about the M50 we can see the massive inconveniences to people and public pocket by cutting corners by building woefully inadequate interchanges with laughable roundabouts with traffic lights. A monkey could plan things better. It is better to build now, build big and build metro.
I am all for metro. Although with the public finances as they are it may not be possible. We should be allowed to break the Stability and Growth Pact for a year or so, especially in this period of global slowdown. The pact was designed as a means to cut day to day spending and not major infrastructural programmes which this country seriously needs. I hope it isn’t scuppered or a victim of major cost cuts (a metro equivalent of the M50 interchanges?) but 6bn is a joke.
That is my ramble for this morning
I think a few of you need to realise that Metro North ain’t going to be cancelled on money grounds as no payment will required to be made until it’s up and running. It’s a PPP where the private sector raises the finance and then gets paid back over 30 years.
From
http://www.rpa.ie/?id=327Q. How much will Metro North cost?
A. Metro North will be procured as a Public Private Partnership (PPP), funded through annual availability payments, over a period of approximately 30 years. The first availability payment is not made until the Metro North opens for passenger service. In order to comply with the Department of Finance PPP Guidelines, the capital cost included in the Metro North business case and the values of annual availability payments remain commercially sensitive in advance of the public procurement process.
Section 2.7.9 of the PPP Guidelines specifically state that the final Public Sector Benchmark (the capital cost of the project if funded by the Exchequer), or any elements thereof, is not made public on the basis that revealing the amount that the State is willing to pay for a service may give tenderers an opportunity to increase their asking price above what they might otherwise seek.
In other words it’ll be actually more expensive overall as government can borrow / raise money at much cheaper interest rates than the private sector. Comprende!
It’s a pity they couldn’t have planned Luas lanes into a slightly wider Dublin Port Tunnel.
It’d have been possible to run Luas trams from the docklands to the Airport and Swords via the tunnelI wonder, if it would be possible to do something to get public transport into the tunnel at this stage?
Even a rapid dedicated bus fleet that fed the airport + Swords could operate via the tunnel and dedicated lanes on the M1 hard shoulders. Drumcondra and the inner northern suburbs have a pretty decent bus network as it is.
If Dublin port is ultimately moved, it’s possible that the tunnel could be re-configured internally to take a luas line.
E.g. you could have a Luas tram running on what is now the fast lane, leaving a single lane + hardshoulder for traffic.
Obviously, strict speed limits for traffic would have to be applied and there’d be no overtaking, but it would be a small price to pay if it meant high capacity trams were running through it.Even in its current state, I think this could be done. The tunnel’s not exactly over-run with traffic other than heavy goods, which could move in an orderly fashion along a single lane, with the safety of the hard shoulder in the event of emergencies.
With good design and proper traffic management, i’m sure it could be achieved.
Although, on second thoughts, Irish Local Authorities and traffic management are an oxymoron.
@MrX wrote:
It’s a pity they couldn’t have planned Luas lanes into a slightly wider Dublin Port Tunnel.
It’d have been possible to run Luas trams from the docklands to the Airport and Swords via the tunnelDo you have any Idea how long it would take to get to the city centre from Swords? The journey would turn most people off public transport for good.
“Do you have any Idea how long it would take to get to the city centre from Swords? The journey would turn most people off public transport for good.”
Do you mean like the 142, 41X, Swords Express or some of the 748’s and 747’s. they all take 4 minutes to get from one end of the tunnel to the other what do you mean the journey would turn people off public transport?
I had to go to good old Swords last weekend from Terenure with Public transport. I practically needed the afternoon off to do it! 16A to the Airport and then a 41 bus to Swords…and back. Yourney time…4 hours. There were some Germans on the bus who got on in George’s street and were quite content until we started approaching Beaumont house and i could tell they were getting flustered. They mentioned something on O’Connell street that they would love to come back (i can eavesdrop German :P) but by the time we reached the airport they were thinking ‘get me the f**k out of here!!!’
My point is, people already need to traverse the city by Public transport, my french flatmate needs to go from Terenure to Ballsbridge every day, via the city centre in rush hour traffic. Public transport is ubiqitious and necessary in most cities…is that hard to believe? People depend on it. Just make sure that when the metro is built to the airport that it is marketed to the last in tourist spots, travel offices and hotels so that travellers do not need to go sightseeing in Saturday afternoon traffic on the top deck of the 16A!
Public transport is here to stay, and the LUAS passenger number increase year on year proves that.well you first mistake was getting the 16a to the airport, should have changed in town and saved yourself 20 minutes each way at least
One of the saddest aspects of this thread is the all too apparent reality gulf which currently exists at Departmental and Ministerial level about what exactly constitutes a Bus service.
The current Bus Atha Cliath ORDINARY services which serve the Airport are largely already overstretched BEFORE factoring in any Airport specific traffic.
Sending Swords corridor services through the Airport can only be a sticky tape answer to the greater problem as the core business of the 41 group is Swords and greater North County Dublin.
Similarly the 16A attempts to portray itself as an Airport service when it`s merely an extension of a SANTRY routeThere appears to be little recognition on the part of the Department and Minister of the difference between a service route and an express route a la Airlink or Aircoach.
Bus Atha Cliath have attempted to address this with the proposed 141 which would have linked Swords with Rathmines whilst bypassing the Airport.
This of itself would have freed up resources for those Airport bound customers who did not wish to travel (and pay for) Express.However,the Department in it`s infinite wisdom consider that such an ordinary stage-carriage service operating along the Swords Road QBC will in some exestential fashion “interefere” with the Swords EXPRESS service which incredibly enough is a limited stop EXPRESS service utilizing the Port Tunnel.
I hope that somebody somewhere can see how immediate approval for the 141 (Proposed 10 Min peak frequency,with full 7 day service) is in the Public Interest which is surely the remit of the Department and Minister for Transport.
Bit off topic here but was looking at Italian rail system on the web. High Speed rail (250km per hr) from Rome to Florence takes approx one and half hours. In an Irish context I am thinking that would be Dublin to Kerry in the same time. It has been said before that other countries have been building these kind of projects for years and we still cannot prodcue a very minor metro system.
@jdivision wrote:
well you first mistake was getting the 16a to the airport, should have changed in town and saved yourself 20 minutes each way at least
in all fairness, there’s little difference with changing in town and changing at the airport. It’s sad that the airport is only served by one bus rout for the entire southside. I normally get the Aircoach on Leeson street if i need to go to the airport, which is normally very very early if going to the UK and therefore requires a taxi direct to the airport. The last time that cost me €35 from Terenure. I really don’t want to be paying that…it’s an embarrassment to public transport. At least the taxis are cleaning up
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