LUAS in Harcourt Street (Update No.8)
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Good point JJ. Maybe instead of looking at how much the final bill has risen since the beginning, we should see if it is value for money? I think it is unfair to compare it to the new Australian transcontinental railway, which cost the same but isn’t comparing like with like, but we should compare it with other European cities projects and apparently it is roughly the same price per km although I haven’t seen any proof of this.
Even if it is roughly the same price as a European versions are we getting value for money? Is the Luas really going to have the impact need to help reduce congestion in Dublin? Is it going to get people out of their cars? Could we be investing the same cash more wisely? Would we have been better to invest more in commuter services from more outlining areas that don’t have bus services? Should we have taken a longer view and started a metro system with a greater capacity? The Luas lines will be busy from day one and will be hailed as a success, some commuters who use the bus now might have a faster alternative but I really don’t think we got value for money.
I think things are moving in the right direction, Iarnród Éireann has come up with the most forward thinking proposals put forward since the inception of the DART and the port tunnel will hopefully remove the HGV traffic from the city centre. These measures plus taxing company car parking as a benefit in kind in the city centre, if the government ever grows the balls to confront its civil servants on this, will do more to relieve traffic congestion than Luas ever will.
All that said I can’t wait to use it. It looks the business!
Stop planning and start building.
If the government stopped planning and started building infrastructure would not take half as long to build. Why consultants are employed over and over and over again to come up with minor alterations to each others plabns is beyond me. We have people in the departments capable of drawing up plans -if these plans are of no use they should be sacked, likewise once a plan has been drawn up (I’m thinking DTI plan here) why is it necessary to fuck about with it at a cost of millions with the consultants (thus continually delaying everything leading to cost inflation )rather than build it to the plans.
Useless shagging government – go build things now not keep reselling the same pig in a poke.
Originally posted by notjim
which businesses closed diaspora?Freeny opticians in the Harcourt centre was one that I know of.
But besides Mr Freeny who was in business there since the Harcourt Centre opened every other business suffered severe ‘Injurious affection’ as a direct result of the non-existence of statutory controls that were the remit of the CARPO.
JJ I don’t accept the cost over runs were justified, I fully accept the findings of the NITL Audit as they are the eminent authority in such matters.
O’Rourke was bad but Breannan is a complete joke or the ultimate machiavellian
The comparison with the Australian cross continent railway has always been an absolute joke.
Their line is built through an unoccupied desert as opposed to smack bang through the centre of a capital city.
Per kilometre, Luas is however more expensive than similar systems built in Nottingham and in France, which are the only valid comparisons.
Nottingham’s newly-opened NET system was built at the cost of €18.5 million per kilometre.
Luas is costing around €33 million per kilometre.
The cost of acquiring land has been a big factor in Dublin. Also, Nottingham’s system doesn’t include any suspension bridges.Originally posted by kefu
The cost of acquiring land has been a big factor in DublinIt would be very interesting to see an audit of the land prices paid. As very little of the route that wasn’t previously on the rail linecould be considered prime development land.
Originally posted by kefu
Also, Nottingham’s system doesn’t include any suspension bridges.Yet a sod hasn’t been turned on the Macken St bridge, strange that a Calatrava bridge in centre of Breanans electoral base and none for the strategically important docklands.
The end cost coming in at almost twice that of Nottingham per kilmometre is the real truth.
From every angle the delivery of the LUAS stinks. 😡
one business? there must be more than that, one business is less than you’d expect through natural turnover! i can think of another: the china showrooms, but even then, you’d wonder if that was because the site is worth too much now for that sort of useage and the character of the street is changing.
Originally posted by notjim
one business? there must be more than that, one business is less than you’d expect through natural turnover! .Opticians businesses are extremly saleable upon retirement or turnover as you put it. However valuations are based upon turnover and having your businesses marooned for an un-necessary period of time destroys value. Rates levied for services not provided don’t help either
Originally posted by notjim i can think of another: the china showrooms, but even then, you’d wonder if that was because the site is worth too much now for that sort of useage and the character of the street is changing [/B]
The use of the China Showrooms as an example is ill conceived as any observer of interior fashion would know that Luara Ashley type products went out with status Quo’s brown flared pants.
Base line is still that LUAS has been the greatest waste of public funds in Irish History and its execution was actually worse if thats possible. I don’t pay tax for this type of fiasco, or should I say any tax I paid in other countries was spent more professionally.
:rolleyes:Diaspora, I have information about that Opticians that I wouldnt post here but would clearly suggest Luas wasn’t its problem
I accept that Paul and I wouldn’t wish anyone dragged into it where they couldn’t defend themselves.
I am merely trying to address the assertion that occupiers of rental property will be ok as the LUAS gain will over time exceed the construction phase nightmare.
For owner occupiers it probably will but for tenants the LUAS will be as dirty an expression as the ‘Celtic Tiger’ was at one time. Rents will be priced up by at least 20% and no compensation will have been given, for a construction disturbance that went for twice if not three times what the original consultation phase would have discussed.
There was always going to be a certain amount of disturbance but it was not limited by pro-active management. A bit like 2000 when at least 15 broadband networks had the city’s streets like a Cavan boreen.
LUAS will be welcome when it arrives, but how can anyone have any confidence in the Dept of Trainspotting’s ability to deliver major projects.
LUAS is how many years late?
LUAS is almost 200% over Budget (NITL)
LUAS disturbance was not contained.
Diaspora, there is no such thing as the tram fairy; it is just not possible to install tracks on city streets without causing substantial disruption.
Actual construction of Luas has not taken that long, it was all the proceeding political shite that caused the delay.
How exactly should they have tackled Harcourt Street ?
It took months to untangle & identify a rake of underground services, laid over years, while the public service & telco companies themselves are not even aware of their exact location … and then shift the entire lot across the street …
Harcourt Street never had a thriving passing trade; those businesses that suffered most will benefit most.
Dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t.
Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
Diaspora, there is no such thing as the tram fairy; it is just not possible to install tracks on city streets without causing substantial disruption.So the traffic arrangement at the junction of Charlotte Way and Harcourt St in 2002 where pedestrians had to walk 20 yards into oncoming traffic was normal disruption.
Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
Actual construction of Luas has not taken that long, it was all the proceeding political shite that caused the delay.On that you are correct but it wasn’t only government incompetence
Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
How exactly should they have tackled Harcourt Street ?In accordance with the plans as agreed with the Harcourt St businesses. Which were fundamentally breached or ignored
Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
It took months to untangle & identify a rake of underground services, laid over years, while the public service & telco companies themselves are not even aware of their exact location … and then shift the entire lot across the street …That makes the Corpo look like even bigger gobshites considering a utility company needs a corpo licence to dig up a public stret/road. That is some statement Peter
Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
Harcourt Street never had a thriving passing trade; those businesses that suffered most will benefit most.Harcourt has a great passing trade as the direct pedestrian and vehicular route from most of Dublin 6 and 14 to the central shopping district. Those very people that will use the LUAS travel this exact route anyway.
Your second assertion that traders will get a magic bonanza unfettered by substantial rent increases is uninformed. Why are office rents 35e per square metre in Blackrock and 20e less incentives in Tallaght? It’s called the DART line factor. Any benifits will be fully taken by the freeholders and not the tenants who paid full market rent despite seriously diminished trading opportunities. Its a lose and equal situation at best
Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
Dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t.The only dams in this case were the obstructions to customers and not the customary water. This LUAS fiasco is a damning indictment of Breanann and O’Rourke before him as well as the local rate collector the Carpo 😡
do we really need to be discussing this, the property in harcourt street is now worth more so there are higher rents, the rent increase is proportionate to but not equal to the estimate extra retail income, that’s how rent work. in this way, the luas has created value, it has given value to the property owners because there property is worth more, and it has increased the potential gross income of store owners, although their rents have increased. some types of retail suit a low rent environment; discount stores, bathroom shops, china storerooms, etc, people with businesses like this will sell there leases, for a profit, since the leases are now worth more, and move to a low rent area.
either way, its just luck, sometimes the breaks go your way, sometimes they don’t. if we start compensating in situations like this, we’re screwed, nothing will get build.
the luas took three years to build begining to end, tallaght will be much closer to town when it running, so will sandyford, it will be easier to get to smithfield. its done now, lets stop this giving out. let build another one to the airport connecting dcu and ballymun. you can’t give out about the political delays to luas and at the same time repeat all the sorts of arguements that lead to those delays.
the street is jammed with vehicular traffic, not pedestrian traffic, if it was such a pivotal pedestrian route it would be lined with retail outlets.
Yes the city council are to blame for allowing the services mess, so why slam those that are left with the job of sorting it out.
Working on Harcourt street in 50m sections would delay the project further.
Originally posted by notjim
do we really need to be discussing this, the property in harcourt street is now worth more so there are higher rents, the rent increase is proportionate to but not equal to the estimate extra retail income, that’s how rent work. /B]Depending on the type and location of the business there would be a little lift but hardly a proportionate lift.
Originally posted by notjim
in this way, the luas has created value, it has given value to the property owners because there property is worth more, and it has increased the potential gross income of store owners, although their rents have increased. /B]Don’t confuse citywide benifits with specific locational benifits, it will do very little for most occupiers besides drive up rents.
Originally posted by notjim
some types of retail suit a low rent environment; discount stores, bathroom shops, china storerooms, etc, people with businesses like this will sell there leases, for a profit, since the leases are now worth more, and move to a low rent area. /B]You’re not trying to suggest that tilestyle were going to open a new shoproom on Harcourt St in the absence of LUAS are you?
Originally posted by notjim
either way, its just luck, sometimes the breaks go your way, sometimes they don’t. if we start compensating in situations like this, we’re screwed, nothing will get build. /B]So we allow contractors to walk all over rate payers, it is not the government that should be compensating the victims it is the contractors. Who behaved terribly knowing that punters like you would sacrifice the rights of occupiers once the compo word was used.
Originally posted by notjim
the luas took three years to build begining to end, tallaght will be much closer to town when it running, so will sandyford, it will be easier to get to smithfield. its done now, lets stop this giving out. /B]LUAS still isn’t finished and it started well before August 2001. Are you completely asleep or has the 800m euro passed you by? 800m should have delivered a lot more than 25kms of tramway. I would like to see an audit of the LUAS CPO’s something tells me there may be a few skeletons somewhere.
Originally posted by notjim
let build another one to the airport connecting dcu and ballymun. you can’t give out about the political delays to luas and at the same time repeat all the sorts of arguements that lead to those delays.No lets get the RPA out of business and let Irish Rail do the job they have a bad record historically but have improved dramitically in recent years. In case you forgot Dublin flew 18m passengers last year and is growing by 1m+ per year hardly LUAS compatible. It needs real trains
Originally posted by notjim
do we really need to be discussing this, the property in harcourt street is now worth more so there are higher rents, the rent increase is proportionate to but not equal to the estimate extra retail income, that’s how rent work. in this way, the luas has created value, it has given value to the property owners because there property is worth more, and it has increased the potential gross income of store owners, although their rents have increasedSorry missed this first time and I hate editing posts.
Not the way the valuation system works at all.
‘What price a willing tenant would pay a willing lessor in an arms length transaction after a reasonable period of marketing’
Turnover has no bearing on rental values whatsever it only applies to businesses being sold as a going concern. Which are based on the previous five years certified accounts.
I would love to see the last five years certified accounts of LUAS inc.
😉ok ok, i give in.
as for the airport, as you say, ir have got their act together, so lets follow there plan and connect it to the dart which leaves the problem of dcu and ballymun which seems a clear case for a luas line and, if it has gone that far, lets carry on to the airport, leaving the airport connected to the city in two different ways.
Diapora, I am amazed how you are knocking LUAS constantly and for no reason other than I think you are completly ignorant of urban light rail systems. They work and they cost money to build – END OF STORY.
If you want to know the real value and proof that the Harcourt Street traders crying poverty is utter hyperbole look at this article:
http://www.platform11.org/rail_bashing.html
Now go find me one residential or commerical property developer who is using easy access to buses as a selling point. LUAS will be a major sucess story in the history of Irish public transport (alongisde the sucess of the DART which people like you claimed was a waste as well).
You are just talking in the most begruding and little Irelander terms. It was no more expensive to build that compareble systems anywhere else and since was is Nothingham a major European capital city!
I think you need to do a bit travelling to places such as Vienna, Amsterdam and you’ll quickly realise how much of an asset to Dublin LUAS is going to be.
No disrecpect man, but you are just wrong and you need to start thinking about the big picture. LUAS in the long run will be a looked upon as a bargin considering the benefits it will being to the city of Dublin.
To clarify a slightly annoying point – Nottingham’s tram line is single track, so should have cost about half that of the Luas per kilometer. Luas is also finished to an exceptionally high (possibly excessively high) standard apart from the ugly lampposts.
Originally posted by notjim
ok ok, i give in.as for the airport, as you say, ir have got their act together, so lets follow there plan and connect it to the dart which leaves the problem of dcu and ballymun which seems a clear case for a luas line and, if it has gone that far, lets carry on to the airport, leaving the airport connected to the city in two different ways.
I can’t disagree with that
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