LUAS in Harcourt Street (Update No.8)
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I agree with Diaspora, the sooner people realise that the metro isn’t a ‘nice to have’ but essential to the future of Dublin the better.
More Buses or more Luas lines may help but they won’t solve the problem. Dublin needs a well thought metro system. One line isn’t the solution but one line as a part of well thought out system is. The London underground wasn’t built in one go.
Dublin has a footprint three times the size of Amsterdam and growing. Huge swathes of Dublin need to be serviced properly and the only way is by investing in a metro system now.
i still don’t get the arguement, reopening the phoenix park tunnel links heuston, and the new heuston development to connolly by a shuttle train and the through running of the kildare train, this provides the sort of capacity needed, a branch off the luas connects heuston to thomas street/digital hub and stephens green, all much cheaper than the interconnector and leaving money for other projects: a luas for crumlin, extend the dart along the maynooth line, a luas for the airport and a dart extension to the airport and a heavy rail connection to the airport, heavy rail to navan: lets finish the three networks we have first, then think about metro, I amn’t advocating spending less, just spending it more effectivelly.
Quote “a luas for crumlin”
They didn’t want it thats why it goes down the centre of the Naas Rd.
Quote “heavy rail to navan”
Who wants rail when you are gettin a motorway to Cavan?
Quote “a luas for the airport and a dart extension to the airport and a heavy rail connection to the airport,”
The metro to the airport is about the only thing they got right on this. The Stephens green metro station was modeled on the Hauptwache station in Frankfurt. Two metro lines intersecting giving connectivity to four different directions.
Quote “a branch off the luas connects heuston to thomas street/digital hub and stephens green”
I can see the first section working as far as Christchurch, but there is no easy route for a tram system from Christchurch to St Green.
Quote “the new heuston development to connolly by a shuttle train and the through running of the kildare train, this provides the sort of capacity needed”
You still have to change at connolly even if trains bypassed Hueston, admitedly a lot better than trying to get on full buses or 2800 passengers per hour LUAS.
If the Kildare trains terminused in Spencer Dock they would have hit
James St, Christchurch, Stephens Green, Pearse st, before hitting the docklands.
This metro line is only 4kms in length about half the length of the Stephens green to DCU section.
I dont get how people dont see how the interconnector is a bad idea. It would mean a Dart line running from Maynooth to the city Spencer Dock area, then to Stephens Green and continuing down the Kildare line. Look at what the coastal Dart line has achieved. This second Dart line would be twice as successful as it would serve a MUCH greater part of the city.
I am a regular user of the Kildare line. I do not think the park tunnel would be good. If I knew my train was going to go all the way to Connolly I would still get of in Heuston and get the Luas to the city centre. Connolly is a long way from Grafton st, Stephens green etc etc. I’d still have a bit of a walk even to o’connell street after my longer train journey. It wont solve anything in my view. I agree with some of what Platform11 say but they’re view that everything can be solved with the park tunnel and trying to cram everything into the existing overcrowded Dart network is bullshit.
Look at the RER in Paris. This is comparable to the Dart except they dont try to put everything on the one line. Lines came into the mainline stations(the likes of Heuston and Connolly in Dublin), Then they put these suburban trains into tunnels(interconnector type situation in Dublin) and routed these to places people actually WANT TO GO TO(Stephens Green, Grafton Street, Thomas Street, Christchurch, Docklands etc in Dublin)
The interconnector is about servicing these areas with a Dart system and not about trying to get people from Kildare to Connolly station.
It drives me mad the way people always look at the endpoints of it. Its the same with Luas. Its not just end to end journeys but being able to negotiate your way around a city quickly and easily, even if this means changing from one line to another. People are afraid of large capital investment. It can be afforded and will benefit so much in the long term.
Hear hear
Looking at the broader picture I totally agree with utilising the existing heavy rail network (without swamping it) and the sooner the better but its just not enough and I don’t think running Luas lines everywhere is the solution either.
The biggest problem with the Luas line is its capacity as mentioned earlier. Trams on the Red line are going to be full when they reach Heuston. We know this before the line even opens. It’s the whole M50 over again as soon as it opens its reached capacity.
The Luas has to compete for road space so it’s slower and more disruptive to build. We need to invest in a metro to serve the commuter capacity of the future the Luas just can’t compete.
Its already late but if we don’t act now and start building a metro the city will suffer. Invest in the future. It will be money well spent if it’s done properly.
Quote “We need to invest in a metro to serve the commuter capacity of the future the Luas just can’t compete.”
Only significant additional capacity can service high density developments.
Quote “Its already late but if we don’t act now and start building a metro the city will suffer. Invest in the future. It will be money well spent if it’s done properly.”
The city is already suffering and with another 300,000 housing units to be built over the next decade in the GDA, no amount of Luas lines will service them.
Interest rates are currently at 45 year lows although the cycle is turning with the Bank Of England having raised rates twice since November. It is time to issue a few €bn in 20 year treasurys. The longer they dither the higher the cost of that money.
…. and if it doesn’t get the go ahead this year it’ll become an election issue and we’ll see a re-run of the political football that besieged the Luas.
Disapora, you aren’t comparing like with like, using the Phoenix park tunnel and providing a luas link with stephen’s green wouldn’t cost more that 1/2 a billion, the interconnector would cost over a billion; a metro to stephens green from the airport would cost 2.7 billion, a spur of the dart line, a heavy rail connection and a luas line all to the airport wouldn’t add up to more than a billion and would connect the airport to the dart belt and to the rest of the country. this is real money, there is lots of things that could be done with the 2.2 billion in the difference, i would like to see more spent on scientific research and education, you persumably would like to more spent on conservation and the environment, it could even be spent on other transport projects, like extending the luas, dart and heavy rail networks. don’t just compare the interconnector and metro line to stephens green with the alternatives, compare them with the alternatives plus 2.2 billion euro.
As other contributors have pointed out, line A is a disaster, chaos waiting to happen. The capacity is woefully inadequate. Even at five minute intervals, the trams will be stuffed as a Christmas turkey.
Just imagine the morning rush-hour. At heuston station you’ve got two hundred people, all carrying backpacks and suitcases, trying to get onto an already-packed tram.
Packed because by the time a tram reaches heuston it will have made FIFTEEN stops. That means each tram can collect only 13 passegers at each stop. This is bound to be inadequate, given that the LUAS passes through polulated Tallaght, Drimnagh and Inchicore – never mind the giant Park ‘n’ Ride at the Red Cow.
The promised 38 minute journey time from Tallaght to Abbey is a joke. They may as well have plucked a figure from the sky. When I asked Eamon Brady, PRO of the RPA, how long would the journey take from Suir Road to Abbey, he paused and said: “Well it’s about half way along so I guess 19 minutes”
He didn’t know. There has been no analysis done, no approximate timings for each stop, so how can anyone believe the RPA’s propaganda?
Quote “a metro to stephens green from the airport would cost 2.7 billion”
This route is 15kms or 8kms Underground and 7kms standard broad gauge line. Included in this is presumably the rolling stock, signalling and station costs which would probably constitute about E$500m of the total.
That leaves about E$2100m for the actual construction of the line. which would probably be in the order of E$75m per kilometre giving a cost of E$1125 leaving a residual cost of E$975m for the underground section. Or a E$1575 in total for the underground section at E$199 per kilometre.
Quote “a heavy rail connection and a luas line all to the airport wouldn’t add up to more than a billion and would connect the airport to the dart belt and to the rest of the country”
Even if a land corridor exists it would cost a fortune not to mention bridges over a motorway for heavy rail.
The cost of lands in North Co Dublin is likely to exceed a 1m an acre . Then welcome the NIMBY lobby who are guaranteed to hold it up for years.
Besides the fact that the existing Howth Junction to Connolly Section is already at capacity. Additional capacity is what is required.
Quote “don’t just compare the interconnector and metro line to stephens green with the alternatives, compare them with the alternatives plus 2.2 billion euro.”
The E$2bn is really E$975m to link Stephens green via Connolly to the Airport.
The cost of E$796m to link all systems is quite a small one considering just how many transport options it will provide.
It is also the only way to provide substantial additional capacity on an East-West axis in the City.
Quote “you persumably would like to more spent on conservation and the environment”
No. I as an An Taisce supporter simply wish European and National Laws to be enforced. The building of a European standard public transport system in conjunction with urban renewal programmes would deliver more on sustainability than a few trophy restorations. The environment is not discretionary spending in Europe it is a fundamental obligation of EU mebership at governmental level.
I said: “…There’s two tram stops about 50 metres apart on Luas Line A! One immediately to each side of Church Street.”
JJ replied: “Ahem, Thats one platform in each direction :rolleyes: The Jervis stop is split for this reason…”
Ahem, you’re wrong JJ :rolleyes: :rolleyes:. The stops I was talking about are at Chancery Street, just east of Church Street, and Hammond Lane (which is the Smithfield stop), just west of Church Street. The platforms at both stops are directly opposite one another.
I was exaggerating when I said 50 metres, but these two stops are VERY close.
Who put Church St there, did they not know it would get in the way at some stage?
Got a letter from the RPA this morning …
“We are pleased to announce that testing of the Tallaght to Heuston section of Luas Line A will commence on Sunday, 7th March 2004 ….
… Everything remains on schedule for the commencement of passenger services in June & August of this year”
found a bit more ..
” from Thursday, 11th March 2004, testing will commence along the full extent of the Sandyford to St. Stephen’s Green Luas Line …
… once made live overhead lines and underground cables will remain live “
One stop is for Smithfield, and the other is for the Four Courts. They’re close but so is the Jervis Street stop close to the O’Connell Street stop. They need to be near each other when they get that close to town.
there’s only six stops between heuston & connolly, its not that many really …
Just to alert you – the first full run end to end on Line B is this Thursday 11th March – it’s a walking pace “guage trial” – arrival at Stephens Green 3pm to be greeted by Bertie.
Harcourt Street will be closed for the duration.
On Line A a run was made as far as Hueston yesterday – I was away, so no pictures, but I’l be in situ on Thursday.
Gabriel
from where will it be walking pace? Surely not the whole way? Is testing regular around Ranelagh? What kind of speeds are we talking about in testing?
They did the “guage testing” as far as Beechwood on Feb 12th, so it will be normal speed to there, and walking pace from then on.
Now I’m not technical, or a railway expert, but my (probably flawed) understanding is that these tests involve very slow speed testing to check that the rails are laid correctly, and that all clearences at every point are correct to the original design and computer simulations.
To givean example, the tests from Red Cow to Hueston yesterday took 4 hours for the trip – but they ran back in 50 minutes (still slower than schedule as they stopped for Gardai at every junction, as lights not tied into system yet.
I don’t think there have been many tests beyond Dundrum yet, but these will soon commence.
I think regular test running down Harcourt Street will wait until the roadway has been fully reconstructed, as currently traffic is running down the track while the other side of the street is being relaid.
Gabriel
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