Luas Central – Which Route?
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We’re allowed to dream….
Anyhow, the fuss over Harcourt St. was the work of one woman seeking publicity for her not wildly successful business. If the RPA need a publicist for possible (but not probable) work on Grafton St., they should hire her.
I don’t have much faith in your average Grafton Street Pedestrian to not get knocked down. Hard enough to walk down the street without idiots not watching where they’re going – there would be a fatality every week.
I was half joking. Of course it would never happen because of the people, even though it would be right in every other way.
@adhoc wrote:
the fuss over Harcourt St. was the work of one woman seeking publicity for her not wildly successful business.
She was so full of crap!!! At one point she said people were going to come out of the nightclubs and fall in front of the trams! :rolleyes: The things we have to go through to get a decent city!!
Surely nothing more than a case of her trying to maximise her compensation for loss of earnings?
While we’re dreaming about Grafton Street- on the poll thread it was suggested in response to my query about using Grafton St that the route could go under rather than along Grafton St, whixh set me thinking- couldn’t Route B go under Trinity and out at Hawkins St? Or even emerge on the north bank and travel up Marlborough St?
I won’t be at the meeting- could someone bring it up on my behalf?;)Pardon me ctesiphon – when I posted that, I hadn’t yet read the poll thread where you suggested Grafton Street (but for me going underground would defeat the purpose).
My view on routes is that the ‘consultation process’ is a charade and that there was only ever one route; the original 1995 route – now ‘Route A’ … Time will tell, I suppose.
@Graham Hickey wrote:
I voted for B as it avoids College Green, i.e. saves College Green from wires and poles, as it does with O’Connell Bridge and Street.
Even if the cables have ‘minimal’ impact on College Green as will be spouted, personally I couldn’t care less – cables are cables: wires that will clutter the views of our finest buildings.Would you feel this way if the poles & cables could be put underground through this area as has been done in Bordeaux and other places? (I ask this as a strong supporter of ‘Route A’)
@Devin wrote:
I think Luas should go down Grafton Street on its way to O’Connell Street ( 🙂 ) . Is this route up for consideration?! In Amsterdam, trams go down a busy shopping street, Leidsestraat, with no great problems (below). Would help to clear some people off Grafton Street too!! There are always too many people on it! And it’s the shortest, most direct route … no right turns!
While the Leidsestraat appears busy, it’s mainly people going to and from the centre. It is not Amsterdam’s ‘Grafton Street’ which is Kalverstraat and there is no trams going down that street.
To call for busy trams to go down, which is easily Ireland’s busiest pedestrians’ street is by someone who has never been there, either physically or mentally :rolleyes: .
Route A is the original design and was altered by Mary O’Rouke who pathetically caved in to so called experts who represent city centre business, and created the situation we have now. 😡
I am surprised that route B seems to be the favourite. Again it must be by people who have never driven down Pearse Street, using the busiest east southside to east northside route. If the Luas goes down here, where does the traffic go? The East Link? :confused:
Check these out during peak times
@Devin wrote:
Pardon me ctesiphon – when I posted that, I hadn’t yet read the poll thread where you suggested Grafton Street (but for me going underground would defeat the purpose).
No bother.:)
I agree about going underground- and to be honest I wasn’t entirely joking about Grafton Street on the Poll thread either. It’s something that bugs me about this- the most sensible route from a directness point of view is to go down Grafton St- the mess that happens at the top of Steeven’s Lane would be part of my grounds for this. It’s something I also feel about the buses that go past Molly Malone- it makes so little sense for them to go along Suffolk Street and Dame Street when they would be far better going along in front of the Provost’s House.
I understand Graham’s arguments about the visual side of College Green, and your counter-arguments about putting the works underground, and weehamster’s arguments about Pearse Street (though those pictures hardly show it at its worst- not by a long shot!). I just think it’s a pity that there doesn’t seem to be any real debate or imagination from many quarters about real options- like adhoc says, we’re allowed to dream.But as you say, the route could well be a done deal.
The funny thing is that there aren’t actually that many options when you think about it. Ok, we could have the Green line veer away from the city centre completely (who’d want to travel there anyway :rolleyes: ?) but if you want to offer those on the Green line city centre destinations, then you’re constrained by a limited number of choices of how to cross the Liffey. I actually hate route B because of the new bridge – an extra rail bridge in such close proximity O’Connell bridge doesn’t appeal to me at all. I think that having too many bridges will ruin the linear/arterial feel of having a river running through the centre of town. The loop line is ugly enough; the combination of a new bridge, the loop line, Butt bridge will almost completely hide the river from O’Connell bridge. However, I’m not sure why they didn’t consider routes over Grattan bridge or Butt bridge. The former, in particular, had many supporters in previous discussions about the link up. The latter I guess is part of the most central and important South-to-North traffic artuary in the city. I’m still strongly in favour of the A route but would prefer a route over Grattan bridge than the B route which is longer, slower and more redundant (given that the east end of the city centre is already well served by rail).
I’d be interested in seeing how a poll restricted to actual Luas users would turn out.
Referring to aesthetics:
@Graham Hickey wrote:It’s an important consideration
So you’d be prepared to sacrifice whatever is left of the view of the river from O’Connell bridge? Do you not think that another rail bridge over the Liffey will (in combination with the bridges already there) in very close proximity to O’Connell bridge will completely destroy the arterial feel of the river. Also the bridge will have to be at a funny angle to join Hawkins st with Marleborough street. In terms of aesthetics, this will have a far more serious impact on the city centre than some overhead wires and poles. Seriously, how much do the crossing wires already on O’Connell St. hurt the aesthetics of the street? Hardly at all would be my opinion.
@weehamster wrote:
Route A is the original design and was altered by Mary O’Rouke who pathetically caved in to so called experts who represent city centre business, and created the situation we have now.
Yes indeed. It would be interesting to canvass her now, as a mere senator, over which of options A-E she favours. Or if she has any other bright ideas to throw into the mix.
@jimg wrote:
I’d be interested in seeing how a poll restricted to actual Luas users would turn out.
I think the opinions of those who don’t currently use it would be at least as important- which route would be the most likely to attract them, etc. But agreed- separation of opinion would be important (if that’s the point you’re making?:) )
I rarely use it, but its route still has an impact on how I navigate town and around, not least the problem of getting tyres stuck in the rails. (But there’s another thread for that debate. ;))I guess you’d have a lot of the Green Line users finding a direct link to Pearse quite an attractive proposal.
Red Line users might opt for the quickest direct link to locations on the Green Line (Line A).Perhaps the RPA should carry out a survey on Luas passengers.
A all the way. If we try to get the link-up to do too many things and serve too many places it will be a joke. We know a stretch of line is to go from the city centre to Broombride via Broadstone under T21, so let the green line run Sandyford (Cherrywood) – Broombridge (where interchange with Maynooth-Bray DART will be possible) via Route A and a continuation straight up O’Connell St. Under T21 the interconnector at Stephen’s Green will make many of the reasons for running this line via Pearse redundant, so we’ve got to view everyhing in context of T21 and beyond and not try to do to much with one mode.
Murphaph, can you explain how you run two tram lines into each other at right angles? Because for all the world this so-called connection between the two lines seems physically impossible to me, not least for reasons of capacity. Please someone explain this for me because I can not get my head around it?
jimg I could not agree more with you about the bridge, it’s a horrible idea. Indeed I ranted on about a proposed mere pedestrian bridge at this location on another thread; as you say yet another bridge squeezed in here would destroy how the Liffey interacts with the city, and the basic rhythm of bridges spaced every few hundred metres spanning the river. And especially coupled with the Loop line behind/overhead.
I think you’re perhaps skewing things a bit mentioning cables on O’Connell St 🙂 – it is College Green that is by far my main concern. Indeed just walking along it today I was plotting where the cables would go and it’s even worse than I previously thought, especially the notion of cables stretching by the House of Lords portico on College St – really terrible.
Likewise on the Green itself, the poles and cables will be plonked right in the middle of the view of the Bank of Ireland from Grafton St, and of course Trinity’s West Front when viewed from the Green, Dame St and the approach from Westmoreland St.
There’s no option here, the cables will have to be erected right out in the middle of the Green, and supported by poles. What makes the College Green cabling so much worse is the fact it’s on a bend – hence it doubles back on itself, intensifying and densifying the clutter suspended in the air.And they’ll crudely pass right by Gandon’s & Johnston’s magnificent screen wall, completely clashing with the graceful curve that it is, and no doubt attach themselves to it too, then around to College St cutting right across the whole Lords facade and portico, and onwards to Westmoreland St. Here they’ll neatly invade on one of the most impressive views in the entire city – the approach to O’Connell St. Then they’ll reach out into the middle of the bridge suspended on naff silver posts as per St. Stephen’s Green, then they’ll split and encircle O’Connell Monument! And again, as for the cable junction at Abbey St, goodness knows what it may end up like.
I’m not one bit opposed to the route, it is logical: the shortest, the quickest, the neatest – on a map.
The potential impact on the historic core of the city is quite another matter. By all accounts it may not be as invasive as I imagine, but some renderings wouldn’t go amiss in light of the highly sensitive locations this route is passing through.If the cables could be ditched, and the platform placed on O’Connell Bridge rather than the street, I’d be all for it. But neither of these will happen, especially the former which would appear to be a technical impossibility given the location of the rolling stock’s electrical infrastructure, which seems to be on top.
I agree about the potential of more western routes like Butt Bidge – just it doesn’t seem to be central enough for the RPA.
I saw what seemed to be them measuring up O’Connell Bridge just before the routes were announced 🙁@kefu wrote:
Murphaph, can you explain how you run two tram lines into each other at right angles? Because for all the world this so-called connection between the two lines seems physically impossible to me, not least for reasons of capacity. Please someone explain this for me because I can not get my head around it?
The groove at the intersecting point is very small so there’s no risk of derailment.
Route A just won’t work unless all the buses are pushed east and west. The problem is that the tram does not have the capacity to service this route by itself. Anyone coming into town on the 46A and hoping to change to the tram would be sorely disapointed. Also it duplicates any future underground metro.
Although there is much critisism of route B i don’t think it is fair. Consider. whichever route is picked westland row is going to be reserved for buses or trams. Cars will be diverted completely away from dawson street kildare street nassau and westland row. Route B has the least impact on buses because all the bus routes will CROSS the tram line , not run alongside it.
Pearse street is set for a radical change anyway and having the tram run along it would allow it to be a new shopping street which dublin really needs.
It connects with the Dart.The new bridge is a bad bad idea. but running the tram line along D’Olier street is a good idea, since the Irish Times is relocating. D’Olier street could also see a new lease of life.
Keeping O’Connell street uncluttered is a point well made but the tram could turn left or right onto Abbey Street.
Route B finally ends the Trinity Effect where everything to the east of the College is dead by comparison with College Green.
The tram can’t service route A properly so why not do something different ? Route B really is very very good , EXCEPT that ugly extra bridge.
Thanks Morlan, that explains it.
I still think there are serious question marks as regards capacity.
I don’t believe the Tallaght line can currently handle a single extra tram considering they are often left queueing for up to ten minutes at Busarus and Abbey Street but I’m sure the RPA have this all in hand.
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