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    • #710032
      JEM
      Participant

      Hi everyone,

      I´m new here but have been reading the discussion forum for some time and am particularly interested in the public transport plans for Dublin contained in Transport 21, as well as recent announcements by RPA and CIE.

      One thing which has been bothering me recently is the idea being advanced by RPA (and by many others, including posters on this site and groups such as Platform 11 if I´m not mistaken), to have an overground link up of the LUAS red and green lines. While I was as disgusted as many others at the procrastination in building the original LUAS lines, I tended to agree with Mary O´Rourke and Garret Fitzgerald at the time, that a LUAS line right through the city centre would cause even worse congestion. My opposition to a line through the city centre has been strengthened by a number of developments since:

      (a) the possible need to dig up O´Connell Street again, after the huge effort it took to get it looking like it is now;
      (b) the decision to build Metro North, which will, in effect, provide an underground connection between LUAS green line at St. Stephen´s Green and LUAS red line at O´Connell Street – Wynns Hotel;
      (c) the decision to build the badly-needed Interconnector, which will also provide an underground connection between LUAS green at St. Stephen´s Green and LUAS red at Spencer Dock.

      We will have two underground connections between the two existing luas lines. Why do we need a third overground connection?? I anticipate that some will argue that the distance between the proposed Metro North stop on O´Connell Street and Wynns Hotel is a bit far, but continental transport systems often have similar distances to walk between different modes.

      While I´m on the matter of the Interconnector, I was very concerned to see an Irish Times interview not to long ago with Padraic White of the RPA, in which he seemed to imply that the Interconnector was a hassle which the RPA didn´t want to deal with. He hinted that providing for a link to the Interconnector in the Metro North terminus at St. Stephen´s Green would add to the overall cost of Metro North, perhaps blowing the project. This interview proved the need for a speedy establishment of the Dublin Transport Authority to prevent stupid and potentially costly squabbles between the RPA and CIE. RPA and CIE both need to be brought under the control of the new authority to ensure proper integration. I believe that more pressure needs to be placed on the Government to prioritise constructon of the Interconnector. Only then will passengers be able to swich easily between different modes of transport (as well as obtain the other benefits of the Interconnector related to DART capacity)

      Interested to hear views of others who might know more about these issues.

      John

    • #801141
      admin
      Keymaster

      John

      I kind of agree on the value of the Luas link up not being a top priority and the rationale I would use on this is that the longer that the Luas linkup gets delayed the closer the Metro comes to completion and as they run on a virtually parallel alignment what is its real benefit given the duplication of function. In terms of construction time the metro we are told is scheduled for 2012 or 5 years from now whilst the Luas link up would take a year to clear the regulatory process and another 3 to complete so arrive only a year earlier.

      To this end my opinion has always been even as early as 2005 that the Luas should not be a mere linkup that should always have been provided in some shape or form but that it should form a key plank in a wider Luas network which itself would form part of a wider intergrated transport network that serves as many parts of the City without duplication. The Luas alignment should therefore be skewed either east to the south docklands via Baggot St and the Canal or west at an earlier point say Harcourt Road up towards Clanbrasil St before heading back towards the 4 Courts area through Newmarket and Meath St.

      One comment that I find very interesting is Padraig White’s comment on providing a link from de metro to the interconnector adding extra cost. Can we therefore assume that such a link hasn’t been provided for or even planned?

    • #801142
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      It has all been discussed and debated in this thread in another section of the site. Most of the issues have been covered in that thread but one point which isn’t raised is that the “link up” is only part of a plan to extend the green Luas line to Liffey Junction (Phibsboro).

    • #801143
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      and possibly from Liffey Junction to Finglas, Not on T21 but it opens up the possibility. Originally the DTO strategy had 2 northside radial LRTs, Metro North via Finglas to Swords, and a LUAS through Ballymun. Now T21 just has the Metro, and it will run through Ballymun. The cross city LUAS could be extended to Finglas from Liffey Junction. We will end up with a LUAS from Ranelagh to Finglas in that case, as the rest of the line south of Ranelagh will be Metro in theory.

    • #801144
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      http://www.rpa.ie/?id=381

      If the RPA build another luas line on the south side, I’ll scream.
      If one looks at the map, it’s largely identical to the existing green line except slightly further west.
      It also seems the RPA are going to make the same mistake that they did with the green line.
      It will terminate at Christchurch, not cross the liffey and not connect with the red line.
      It’s suburban terminus is Dundrum, like that place needs more public transport.
      While Cabra, Finglas, coolock and Glassnevin are starved of rail access.
      The city center luas link won’t begin construction in this decade, will probably not go ahead at all and the liffey jnction to city center line looks even more doubtful eventhough it would be considerabley shorter, cheeper to build and produce more revenue than luas line E.

    • #801145
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @cgcsb wrote:

      http://www.rpa.ie/?id=381

      If the RPA build another luas line on the south side, I’ll scream.
      If one looks at the map, it’s largely identical to the existing green line except slightly further west.
      It also seems the RPA are going to make the same mistake that they did with the green line.
      It will terminate at Christchurch, not cross the liffey and not connect with the red line.
      It’s suburban terminus is Dundrum, like that place needs more public transport.
      While Cabra, Finglas, coolock and Glassnevin are starved of rail access.
      The city center luas link won’t begin construction in this decade, will probably not go ahead at all and the liffey jnction to city center line looks even more doubtful eventhough it would be considerabley shorter, cheeper to build and produce more revenue than luas line E.

      Ah now, we cant link it from Christchurch to future Luas link at Trinity College down Dame St; that would be too sensible.

      Re Dundrum – it actually does need more rail provision! Why? because gobshites built Luas with tram capacity only on an already set-aside rail corridor. :rolleyes:

    • #801146
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I think it only goes as far as Christchurch because it will link there with the proposed ‘Line F’ coming in from Lucan which will travel down High Street, past Christchurch to the city centre.

      One of the main issues with this proposed route is the width of the road on certain sections, particularly close to the canal. The plan calls for a huge number of demolitions of houses and CPOs of peoples gardens. Will probably face a lot of opposition so it will certainly not be something we can expect to see built soon.

      The rather sad irony is that the one place that the width of the road won’t be an issue is the section down the dual carriageway of Clanbrassil Street, taking back the car space that the road engineers fought for during the ’70s and ’80s thus devastating this part of the inner city…

    • #801147
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Press reports at the time of the release of the feasibility study basically said the study found no case for the line. It’s not in Transport 21 and so has no chance of getting funding or starting before 2015.

    • #801148
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Just a thought on tram lines and the amount of roadway required – has no-one ever been to Amsterdam? Trams rarely have reserved road space and in some cases thravel along very narrow streets indeed, over canal bridges and even, in Leidsestraat I think, go into single shared track mode in a pedestrianised street. So, all this nonsense about needing dedicated and segregated road space and demolishing lots of houses is just that. If there was a will to build a tramway, the means would be found. The last people who should be allowed to design a tramway in a city are road engineers! Some pics which partly illustrate the A’dam scenario:

    • #801149
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @johnglas wrote:

      The last people who should be allowed to design a tramway in a city are road engineers!

      I have a confession to make…Ive just found another secret smiley: + 1,000,000

      😀

    • #801150
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I severely boubt Dundrum needs more rail access considering Finglas, Glassnevin, Santry, Artane, Coolock and Beaumount have nothing and will gain nothing from Metro North. Also Cabra has the Pretty crappy Broombridge commuter station with a service every half hour at peak times. Blanchadstown also has no rail link and a population of 90,000. But sure lets build another line to serve Dundrum shopping center and serve the most affluant areas of the City. It’s baisically the Green line only slightly further west

    • #801151
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Metro_o-connell.jpg

      http://www.transport21.ie/Projects/Metro_-_Luas/Luas_Line_BX_-__Line_D_-_St_Stephens_Green_to_Liffey_Junction.html

      It looks like the City Center link up won’t be constructed at all. It’s not in any of the diagrams
      and once the metro is built it’ll probably be axed for being not needed

    • #801152
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      i would like to see how it connects with something like this…

    • #801153
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @cgcsb wrote:

      It’s suburban terminus is Dundrum, like that place needs more public transport.

      The northside takes the public transport. The southside owns the public transport.

    • #801154
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      fergaler, whatever do you mean?

    • #801155
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @johnglas wrote:

      Just a thought on tram lines and the amount of roadway required – has no-one ever been to Amsterdam? Trams rarely have reserved road space and in some cases thravel along very narrow streets indeed, over canal bridges and even, in Leidsestraat I think, go into single shared track mode in a pedestrianised street. So, all this nonsense about needing dedicated and segregated road space and demolishing lots of houses is just that. If there was a will to build a tramway, the means would be found. The last people who should be allowed to design a tramway in a city are road engineers! Some pics which partly illustrate the A’dam scenario:

      Having been to Amsterdam, I disagree that it works perfectly. You’re constantly watching out at all times, that there’s no trams about to run you over. It’s a terrible system. And when it’s not trams, it’s bicycles. Pedestrianised streets should be for pedestria
      ns.

    • #801156
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I agree, most of the Amsterdam tram network was built a very long time ago when demand was much lower. It also shares trackspace on it’s lines with buses in some parts, perhaps not a bad idea but single tracking would definitely cause alot of problems for modern commuters.

    • #801157
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      well if the luas link up isn’t built, to travel from Heuston to Sandyford, one will have to change onto the metro at abbey st and then change onto the luas at Stephen’s Green. This will break the government’s promise of a journey from anywhere to anywhere on the network with only one change.
      Also the northside suburbs have been largely ignored by transport21 Excet metro north. the link up will facilitate an extention to Finglass

    • #801158
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      To all the knockers of the A’dam tram system: yes. it was built a long time ago, but it’s still there and running, the drivers are very good at ringing their little bell in case you’re so pished you don’t hear it coming and, yes, bikes are much more threatening to pedestrians. The ‘problem’ for ‘modern’ commuters is urban sprawl, plus maws and weans in SUVs, plus ‘dedicated’ motorways that actually encourage congestion at peak times, plus a view that public transport is for ‘little’ people (be honest).
      Traffic segregation is fine for a new-start system (although it destroys any sense of urban enclosure), but in a historic city like Dublin, the street pattern you have is what you work within; as Colin Buchanan observed many years ago, you either have transport for towns or towns for transport. The A’dam system is not ‘terrible’, but it does require a certain amount of street-awareness, which is what we should all have anyway.

    • #801159
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      It looks like the City Centre link up won’t be constructed at all. It’s not in any of the diagrams
      and once the metro is built it’ll probably be axed for being not needed

      Why exactly will it not be needed?
      Because for a short bit, it follows close to the metro north tram route is enough reason that its shouldn’t be built? You see the metro north tram has nothing to do with line BX/D. The Luas line goes somewhere else.

      The problem is that current plan just shows Line BX/D heading to Broadstone and terminate at Liffey Jtn where it meets the Maynooth (soon to be a DART) line. However this line is envisaged to eventually be extended to Finglas, which was strangely left out altogether of the T21 plan. Cut out the Centre Luas link up and Finglas will be left out altogether,

      And this brings me to a problem I have with T21. The T21 programme seems to have little regard for any other potential project after 2016. What about

      • The DART to Drogheda and to Kildare.
      • The Metro South from Stephens Grn to Tallaght via Harolds X and Kimmage,
      • The Luas from Howth Jtn to meet the Metro North through Dublin North Central,
      • The Quad tracking of the existing DART line from Clontarf to Howth Jtn
      • Trams for Cork, Limerick, Galway
      • High-speed lines to Belfast and Cork

      I would have included the “possible” Luas from Broadstone to Dundrum via Harold’s Cross, but this surprisingly pop up recently as Line E.

      There will be a need for more transports lines after T21 yet this is totally ignored.

    • #801160
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      has the RPA never considered the option that the CIty Center link may be built on an elevated structure such as the Sydney Monorail. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SydneyMonorail1_gobeirne.jpg
      The green line already runs on an elevated structure on the former harcourt railway and it would eliminate the squabeling over road space with buses and private car users

    • #801161
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Now that’s a sharp looking piece of equipment!

    • #801162
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      You’ve hit the nail on the head, the city centre Luas link up only makes sense if extended to Broadstone and Finglas, otherwise it’s just a duplication of the metro line that’ll run underneath it. Garret Fitzgerland queried the cost-benefit analysis of this weekend and his suspicions are probably right.

      as for after 2015, that’ll be Transport 22 or whatever they decide to call it. they’re currently putting together a long-term plan (http://www.2030vision.ie), presumably out of that a T22 will come about some time after 2010. it’s all about priorities especially given that the less productive parts of the NDP now look like they’ll be delayed, surely the city centre link must be one of them.

    • #801163
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @cgcsb wrote:

      well if the luas link up isn’t built, to travel from Heuston to Sandyford, one will have to change onto the metro at abbey st and then change onto the luas at Stephen’s Green. This will break the government’s promise of a journey from anywhere to anywhere on the network with only one change.

      DART from Heuston to Stephens Green and Luas from there to Sandyford. One change only.

    • #801164
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      well that was just an example say if you wanted to go from Connolly or smithfield or Drimnagh to Sandyford

    • #801165
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @cgcsb wrote:

      well that was just an example say if you wanted to go from Connolly or smithfield or Drimnagh to Sandyford

      You walk to Stephen’s Green and get the Luas, no changes at all needed.

    • #801166
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      “Order will not become enforceable until 11 August 2008 to allow for any applications to the High Court for leave to apply for judicial review of the Order. In agreement with the RPA”

      seems the RPA plan to get going on the Saggart extension in August. That’ll mean 3 luas projects under construction at the same time two of wich are on the same line. I don’t see how the luas plans to handle the extra patronige but I suppose we’ll see:)

    • #801167
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @cgcsb wrote:

      “Order will not become enforceable until 11 August 2008 to allow for any applications to the High Court for leave to apply for judicial review of the Order. In agreement with the RPA”

      seems the RPA plan to get going on the Saggart extension in August. That’ll mean 3 luas projects under construction at the same time two of wich are on the same line. I don’t see how the luas plans to handle the extra patronige but I suppose we’ll see:)

      And what about the Northside?!
      It drives me insane that Dublin 15 and its population which is middle class and less well off than most of the Southside that has a Luas and Dart does not get anything. If anything if a Luas line from Blanchardstown to the city centre was built it would be very successful. It is a crime that areas like Lucan and Blanchardstown are bereft of Luas lines.

      Another rant over.

    • #801168
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      There is a train station about 400 yards from Blanchardstown Village at Castleknock – for those not familiar with the area, the station is more Blanch than Castleknock. There is a second one at Coolmine and a third in Clonsilla. The only problem with them is that none have sufficient parking facilities.
      A spur is also to be built from Clonsilla through Ongar, Clonee etc so I think it’s a bit strange to pick out Blanchardstown as the one completely unserved by public transport. There are plenty of other places: Lucan, Swords etc, which are far worse off.

    • #801169
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      http://www.rpa.ie/?id=381

      Agreed alot more needs to be done for the Northside. Talk of a third luas line for more affluent areas is in the link above. Yet another luas line to stop at Dundrum while Blanchardstown, Finglass, Coolock, Beaumount, Santry will get nothing in transport 21. Note how this proposed line largely mirrors the existing Green line, just slightly further west. It doesn’t cross the liffey and connect to the Red line. The small amount of track on the northside never diverges more than 30 meters from the liffey. At least Swords will get the metro though

    • #801170
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      At the risk of repeating what has already been said, Luas Line E is a complete non-runner. It’s not going to be built and never was. A feasibility study was carried out by the RPA to placate local TDs and they themselves came back saying it was not practical and would lose E2 million a year.
      The report is here: http://www.rpa.ie/upload/documents/Feasibility%20Study%20Possible%20Luas%20Line%20Rathfarnham%20to%20City%20Centre%20(Line%20E).pdf
      Transport 21 – for better or worse – did have a strong Northside bias, featuring Metro North, Metro West and an extension of Luas to Broadstone & Grangegorman etc.
      As it stands, some of those things may go by the wayside and the Northside will continue to be the poor relation.
      Unfortunately, one of the simple facts is that the majority of Dublin’s population live on the Southside and prior to Luas were served by a single DART line and an ARROW service that barely served Ballyfermot, Cherry Orchard etc.
      The Northside had a DART line with a spur to Howth and an ARROW service to Maynooth. It also had its portion of the M50 completed long before the Southside.
      I am a Northsider by the way but the facts are the facts.

    • #801171
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      What’s a ‘Delta junction’ does anyone know?

    • #801172
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Delta junction is the rail equivalent of a t junction – triangular in shape which facilitates tram movements in all directions – sorry couldn’t find an image of it

    • #801173
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @gunter wrote:

      What’s a ‘Delta junction’ does anyone know?

      I reckon they mean a triangular junction, whereby any train can proceed forwards along either of two routes ahead. Such arrangements did exist previously in Ireland – at Rosslare there was the short-lived link, from Felthouse Jcn to Killinick Jcn; lasting from 1906 to 1912 – this allowed for a thru service for tarffic coming from Wexford to go on towards Waterford, without having to reverse at Rosslare. Similarly at Bleach Green in Co. Antrim, the Northhern Counties Committee erected a link with viaduct in 1934, which meant that Antrim-bound traffic using that line no longer had to reverse at Greenisland.

      Hope this is of help Gunter 🙂

    • #801174
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Looks like the greek letter delta, roughly triangular

    • #801175
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @alonso wrote:

      Delta junction is the rail equivalent of a t junction – triangular in shape which facilitates tram movements in all directions – sorry couldn’t find an image of it

      Ah Alonso beat me to it – but ye didn’t have the bit of railway history, A 😉

    • #801176
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      All is clear.

      Many thanks, trying to read a Luas report, will have more questions later on.

    • #801177
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      As you say Kefu there are other areas more worse off than Blanchardstown but I was just taking it as an example of one area which is part of the Northside, an area which has a large public transport deficit. Plus the grographical position of D15 being on the edge of the city with large open land for further large scale development it is a joke that it is being underfunded.

      Taking from the last point I made. The Southside maybe more populated and in some places more densely populated than the Northside but the opportunity for future population growth is greater on the Northside that it is time to reorientate emphasis from the established Northside and use this as an opportunity to facilitate future large scale developments in green belts with adequate public transport.

    • #801178
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Regarding the City Center link up, was it never considered that the luas could turn left from Stephen’s Green to South King Street along Stephen Street, Golden Lane and Bull Alley, turn right onto Patrick Street and left onto High Street and Cross over to Church Street and use the old Broadstone Railway to Finglas

    • #801179
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      .
      Unfortunately, one of the simple facts is that the majority of Dublin’s population live on the Southside .

      According to the population indicators for each constituency within Dublin city for the last election the south side only has a greater population of 8,350. Which on the scale of things isn’t a lot…… just saying

      http://www.rte.ie/news/elections2007/constituencies.html

    • #801180
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      i’ve done the maths using the figures you provided. the liffey splits the city in two but also the way the constituencies are set means the population of the northside of the city also includes most the county.

      northside
      central:104,674 north:120,309 north central:72,518 north east:69,717 north west:73,327 west:92,900 total northside=533445
      southside
      mid west:100,399 south:118,704 south central:122,168 south east:100,305 south west:97,989 dun laoghaire:114,166 total southside=653731
      653,731 – 533,445 = 120,286
      so despite the northsides advantage of stretching as far as balbriggan it still has 120,286 less people

    • #801181
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      regarding the luas line F to Lucan, are people happy with it terminating at Trinity? personally I would like to see it extended down Pearse Street to connect with both Dart lines there and continue to serve the Grand Canal Dock, Ringsend and Irishtown areas

    • #801182
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      You might be on to something there as you can’t really interchange to go in that direction from Trinity, maybe it should finish at O Connell bridge?

    • #801183
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @SunnyDub wrote:

      You might be on to something there as you can’t really interchange to go in that direction from Trinity, maybe it should finish at O Connell bridge?

      But if it finished at O’Connell Bridge, how woul it connect better with the Dart? and a service to the South Docks will be important as the population of the area and number of offices there increases

    • #801184
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @cgcsb wrote:

      regarding the luas line F to Lucan, are people happy with it terminating at Trinity? personally I would like to see it extended down Pearse Street to connect with both Dart lines there and continue to serve the Grand Canal Dock, Ringsend and Irishtown areas

      I’m pretty sure eastward extension, possibly to Poolbeg, is in their minds.

      On the route options for the F Line, DCC seem to be strongly recommending the start and finish of route option 1, that’s Lucan to Ballyfermot roundabout and James Street to College Green, but with a daft detour down Kylemore Road to the Canal and then piggy back on the Red Line to get to James Street.

      The more logical option of going through centres of population, such as Inchicore and Kilmainham, that would be in direct line, seem to be proving too challenging. But then why rise to a challenge when you can bypass it.

    • #801185
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @gunter wrote:

      The more logical option of going through centres of population, such as Inchicore and Kilmainham, that would be in direct line, seem to be proving too challenging. But then why rise to a challenge when you can bypass it.

      I assume they are still sore at Inchicore for being so obstructive last time.

    • #801186
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @notjim wrote:

      I assume they are still sore at Inchicore for being so obstructive last time.

      The line we’re hearing from part of Inchicore this time is ‘we already have a Luas service’ (the Red Line skirts the area by going down the canal), so feck off if you live in the other part of Inchicore, or Kilmainham.

      In any normal city, the new tram service would just go down the main arterial route, where commercial activity is concentrated, the residential hinterland can best be served and where urban regeneration and precinct improvement can get the boost it desperately needs, there wouldn’t be any debate about it.

      You wouldn’t have a route selection process dominated by narrow interest groups or powerful property holders. You wouldn’t have the likes of Dublin Providers veto the route because waiting for the tram to go past would make it more difficult for them to get their supply trucks to move between their three builder’s supply yards that are spread out all over the centre of Old Kilmainham.

      For the record, there was a prebiscite taken towards the end of the Red Line route selection debacle, and it’s results were never published. There are however unconfirmed reports that the vote went 2:1 in favour of the Inchicore/Kilmainham route, but political deals had been done by this time and this was swept under the carpet.

    • #801187
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      One of the route options i think it’s number two starts outside Lucan and doesn’t actually serve Lucan Village. I would be very dissapointed to see that route option become a reality as it would propr up urban sprawl instead of serving the major centers of population

    • #801188
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I don’t see what’s wrong with running both tracks down O’connell st. That way, there would be no more private traffic on the Street. Everyone’s a winner. Haven’t heard boo out of the RPA on this project in ages.

    • #801189
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      http://www.transport21.ie/Projects/Metro_-_Luas/Luas_Line_F_-_Lucan_to_City_Centre.html

      you know when they start mentioning the current economic climate that prospects of the project reaching construction stage are slim. there is also a map on T21’s website that doesn’t include the Lucan line

      http://www.transport21.ie/Maps/upload/Image/DrulinRailMapBG.jpg

      personally I’m not a fan of the prefered route mainly because it shares track with the red line, and it won’t be long until capacity becomes an issue. Especially when it’s intended to have a 5 minute frequency at peek time on both lines.

    • #801190
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Just wondering if anyone knows if the extension to Saggart (C1) will be a spur off the red line or a branch line.Also if the F line will actually be sharing track with the red line.
      A branch line would be preferable, not causing any frequency damage whatsover on the red line and as cgcsb said above the Fline sharing track with the red line wuold cause terrible frequensy problems at peak times…..In an ideal Dublin there would be a central station where all the luas lines, metro lines and possibly bus lines would terminate.

    • #801191
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @EIA340600 wrote:

      In an ideal Dublin there would be a central station where all the luas lines, metro lines and possibly bus lines would terminate.

      That is precisely what Dublin (or any city) does not need.

      And I am hard-pressed to think of any city where such an arrangement has been a satisfactory solution.

    • #801192
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Why is that?:confused:It would at least fulfill the government promise of any where to anywhere with no more than one connection.There would be a huge number of passengers in one place, sure,but its possible to cater for that.

    • #801193
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @EIA340600 wrote:

      Just wondering if anyone knows if the extension to Saggart (C1) will be a spur off the red line or a branch line.Also if the F line will actually be sharing track with the red line.
      A branch line would be preferable, not causing any frequency damage whatsover on the red line and as cgcsb said above the Fline sharing track with the red line wuold cause terrible frequensy problems at peak times…..In an ideal Dublin there would be a central station where all the luas lines, metro lines and possibly bus lines would terminate.

      to answer your question, yes the lucan line will share track with the red line. And line A1(Saggart) will be a spur line. The good thing about sharing track(despite the frequency problems) is that services would be more flexible, i.e there could be services between Connolly and Lucan, Tallaght and Trinity, Lucan and Trinity, Tallaght and Connolly. Also it will be possible in the future to quadruple track in that area allowing for seperation of services if the frequency problem persists.

      Personaly I believe that what needs to be done is further seperation of the red line from road trafffic. Peraps with barriers and more of a level crossing system so that it doesn’t stop for traffic between Heuston and the Jervis

    • #801194
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @EIA340600 wrote:

      Why is that?:confused:It would at least fulfill the government promise of any where to anywhere with no more than one connection.There would be a huge number of passengers in one place, sure,but its possible to cater for that.

      There is, as far as I know, no city on the planet which has achieved a one-change public transport system for its citizens.

      Some cities – Munich, for example – have achieved this for passengers who require only underground connections to get between their home and their desired destination.

      For residents of Munich, however, whose starting point (from the view of public transport) is nearest to a tram line or bus route, the journey from start to finish can involve two to three changes. (I don’t think that there is any situation where it could involve four changes, though I may be wrong).

      Nevertheless, the city has overall a pretty efficient arrangement, as have several others.

      Other cities, who (for a variety of reasons) have been forced to opt for entirely overground public transport systems, have also not been able to achieve a one-change arrangement, to the best of my knowledge.

      (Gdansk would be my personal favourite, as it has an overground tram network which has a very high degree of segregation – but the city is still a long way away from having a one-change transport system).

      The one thing which most developed cities – from a public transport point of view – of Dublin’s size have, is lines which travel through the city centre. Not through just one location in the city centre, but through a number of locations located very close to the city centre.

      In other words, instead of ten or twelve lines meeting and terminating at some point in the city centre, there are five or six lines which pass through the city centre, with appropriate intechange points.

      It’s very efficient.

      It suits those who want to go to the city centre, it suits those who wish to continue on the same train to their destination on the far side of the city, and it enables people to change rapidly and effectively if they need to.

      Focussing everything on one location, with several terminating lines, in the city centre, would involve not only bringing everybody to one particular part of the city centre (when they might wish to go to some other part) but would also involve everybody who did not wish to go to the city centre having to change.

      A very inefficient arrangement.

    • #801195
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Oddly enough we N E A R L Y managed to achieve one of these rare “Integrated Moments” quite recently…

      Dublin Bus managed to secure a Route Licence for the new frequent Route 47 linking Belarmine on the fringes of Sandyford/Stepaside with……wait for it…..steady….Donnybrook Church !!

      Now it seems that consideration for permitting the 47 to operate a Teeney bit further down the road as far as Wilton Terrace/Leeson St Bridge was not forthcoming as it may have impinged upon a private licenced pre-existing peak time service.

      Had the frock coated,top hatted Senior Departmental Licencing Official taken a ramble down as far as Leeson St he would Immediately have spotted the opportunities for Integration with the Dublin Bus 140 route heading for Finglas ! 😮 and worse still the Bus Eireann 100X service to…hold on to your hats…NEWRY !!! …..Crikey,theres an integrated opportunity missed eh ???

      When I hear the likes of Mr Cuffe rambling on about Management innefficiencies and the need for reform of the “System” etc I really do despair…The “System” is fine…those Parliamentary Draughtsmen of 1932 did a very good job on their Road Transport Act which is a model of clarity in many respects….what is seriously deficient is the ability of the current Department of Transport`s Officials to interpret it in a manner beneficial to the Public Transport USER rather than worrying intently as to the competitive effects upon a small coterie of private companies ..????

    • #801196
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Tuesday, 10 February 2009
      Irish Times

      THE LUAS extension from Tallaght to Citywest will act as a catalyst for further development in west and southwest Dublin, the Taoiseach Brian Cowen has said.

      He was speaking at an event to mark the contract award for the €150 million spur off the Red Line at Belgard running to Saggart in west Co Dublin. Passenger services on the 4.2km light rail link are expected to start in early 2011.

      The Taoiseach said a €300 million cut in capital investment announced last week would be achieved through lower project costs. Referring to other Luas extensions, Mr Cowen added: “At the other end of the Red Line, the 1.5km extension to the Docklands is well advanced and will be completed by year-end. And the extension of the Green Line to Cherrywood remains on schedule for completion by end 2010.”

    • #801197
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Seamus O’G wrote:

      And I am hard-pressed to think of any city where such an arrangement has been a satisfactory solution.

      In Zürich, nearly every S-Bahn (equivalent to DART except there must be about 20 lines) and ALL intercity and international trains go through or terminate at the main station (Hauptbahnhoff) which is situation right in the centre of the city. In addition the majority of on street tram lines pass just outside the station. I’ve been here for a few weeks I can assure you that it’s more than satisfactory. In fact, it’s widely considered a model public transport system.

      I’m also quite confident that the Swiss – who run what is in my experience the most advanced and integrated public transport system in the world (and I’m not just talking about rail – the system integrates trains, trams, trolly buses, buses, boats, cog railways, cable cars and gondelas) – knew what they were doing when they started building their interconnector in the late 80s which contributed to this arrangement.

    • #801198
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @jimg wrote:

      I’m also quite confident that the Swiss – who run what is in my experience the most advanced and integrated public transport system in the world (and I’m not just talking about rail – the system integrates trains, trams, trolly buses, buses, boats, cog railways, cable cars and gondelas) – knew what they were doing when they started building their interconnector in the late 80s which contributed to this arrangement.

      but why build an interconnector if you are not going to connect to or move the con?

    • #801199
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Funnily enough, I’d a feeling you might have issues missarchi. Influenced by your posts here, I took the liberty of designing a far better system – as you can see in the following diagram. I’ve sent it on to the Swiss transport engineers for consideration. Naturally I’ve credited you for the inspiration.

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