Look at de state of Cork, like!
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Diaspora,
the ‘Luas’ proposal was the result of a UCC study as far as I know and i think referred to a link between rail station and city centre, and im unsure of what benefit this short link would have.
i do think that a dedicated tram system may be viable from CIT-Curraheen- Bishopstown-University Hos.-Wilton-UCC-Washington St-Bus Station-South Docks-Blackrock-Mahon.
no need to physically cross the river just to hit the train station, kenneddy quay on the south docks would be sufficient if the 2 pedestrian bridges across custom hse qy were in place.
you are right, this has been ignored, probably because it was an Echo Story and sometimes the Echo should be read with spoons of salt
That same echo story had a quote from the city manager in which he stated that a tram system was not on the current list of priorities, but may be consideredin the distant future. The City Council is currently investing alot of money on quality bus corridors which cost significantly less and carry just as many people. The other priority has been the park&ride scheme which is to be extended to all major approach routes. The park&ride scheme in conjunction with quality bus corridors will provide an excellent service in several directions at a fraction of the cost of a tram system. The costs incurred, and the safety implications of the existing tram system in Dublin are enough to make other solutions seem far more reasonable.
Originally posted by Diaspora
It is not the function of the National Trust For Ireland (An Taisce) to object principally to any scheme on the basis of inadequate road access, it is relevant to cite it as ‘another reason’ in particular cases but it in isolation is not enough.The montage of the scheme you are ‘whinging’ about looks fine, but no montage takes account of more than one angle. But in from the angle it looks fine, there are no other structures in the montage, so I don’t see how anyone could complain relying on that image.
Lexington has often made the point that An Taisce ‘object to everything’, as soon as they don’t……..
This thread has entirely ignored the proposed Luas for Cork which would do more for Cork than every other project mentioned here as the solutions.
-> CG Images of development are designed to reflect a project in it’s best light – to make the development more attractive to both potential customers and planners in order to get the project up and running. The reason I rarely make comments on developments outside of Cork – other than the ones I may have some involvement in – is because I can’t comment on a project I know an insufficient amount on. I think to pass an ‘okay’ based on a montage that, anyone familiar with the development will tell you, is inaccurate with relation to its environment – is a little non-sensical. I thought An Taisce (and I think it must be remember I am referring to An Taisce Corcaigh here) are supposedly Champions for a Quality Life??? Then how come, they can find fault with a project they feel ‘overshadows a warehouse reflectant of Cork’s industrial heritage’, but not a project that detracts from Cork’s fading green areas and public space? And defaces a valuable and historical Cork structure (Tellengana Lodge?). Its completely contradictory! Now, I’m not advocating ‘overshadowing’ a valuable heritage reference – but then this is the inconsistency of the organisation in Cork. And I said, they ‘object to everything except where it matters’. (The Glen, Barrack Street, Tellengana, Dunkettle House, Brideview’s proposal for Rochestown etc) A link I posted a while back, showing how An Taisce brought OSB to appeal is a good example of their behaviour – but I can get some real beauties posted in addition to that one if requested also. (I don’t have them online as of yet – some are still in the Planning Process).
Furthermore, there is no ‘Luas-style’ proposal currently on the cards – this was an article by 2 UCC lecturers in the Evening Echo and then subsequently the Irish Times about the advantages of extending the new rail-link to Midelton into Patrick’s Quay utilising existing corridors (hence a very small additional cost). I agree with them on this – I also believe provisions of space should be made on future road developments to allow the possibility of a suburban rail network – hence no need for expensive CPOs and later provision. I’ve always advocated the use of rail links over more urban motorways. We should be encouraging and investing in efficient and substantial rail or guided bus corridors in Cork.A proposal back in 1996 suggested a guided-bus corridor from Curraheen -> Bishopstown (via CIT) -> Western Road (former Greyhound Track via Victoria Cross) -> UCC Main Campus -> Washington Street -> South Mall -> City Hall (Eglinton Street) -> Kennedy Quay -> Blackrock -> Mahon Point (along existing former rail corridors). The CATS (Cork Area Transport System) was to be link-up with suburban rail services to Blarney, Blackpool, Cobh and Midelton – the plan is even referenced in the Cork City Development Plan 2004 – but so far, no-one has got the move on. CCC, being quite frank, like the idea but have no real interest in fetting involved in such a system for the time-being. That’s a real shame. A number of private investors are continuing to assess the idea – but a number of cost complications and pathetic restrictions have been laid-down by CCC (they should be supporting it – its not costing them anything and its giving Cork a decent off-the-road transport system). Issues of cost and return are the predominant delay factors.
Originally posted by lexington
*UPDATES*🙁 O’Callaghan Properties (Riga Limited) have seen the decision date on their application for a huge development at the Jurys Hotel site on the Western Road in Cork pushed back until the 16th December 2004. Such a move was pretty much expected. The original decision date was due for the 10th of October (next week). The application is having a bumpy ride through planning – but it seems to have its champions at City Hall. With the number of objections lodged against the project, a grant may see the development brought before ABP. Its a shame really, but we’ll just have to wait and see.
Yeah, pretty much expected though a bit surprised that the decision was extended by 10 weeks – 2 weeks longer than the actual planning decision period itself. Have CCC imposed similar extensions on other major projects recently?
Agree Kino cinema looks great. Roll on tomorrow, keep us informed Lexington!!
:rolleyes: UCC have attained permission for their development of over 60,000 additional square footage to the existing Boole Library on the main campus. The extension is proposed to the east of the existing library and was initially refused by planners until Senior Planner Ronnie McDowell intervened following talks with UCC. A number of modifications have since been proposed to minimise visual and pedestrian disruption. Wilson Architecture are the design firm behind the huge development. I personally think extending to the southern sunk courtyard made more sense – but its good news for UCC and especially UCC Students.
🙁 The Kino Cinema has had its decision date pushed back until early December – the redevelopment will see the existing single-storey cinema demolished and rebuilt over 4 floors – the upper 3 catering for 3 new cinemas. Dennehy Design are responsible for the architecture – and they’ve done a superb job. I sincerely hope this application is granted.
lexington, is there a means of getting in touch with you through this site? your messaging and e-mail seem to be disabled.
Some breaking news on the School of Music,what will this mean to the start date for construction?
http://www.irishexaminer.com/breaking/2004/10/13/story170848.html
Does anyone know what is planned for the row of houses on the road opposite the old greyhound track?? heard it was supposed to be turned into student accommodation but for months there has been nothing about it as far as I know. Anyone shed some light?
more info on the CSM http://www.96fm.ie/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=51547&pt=n
Originally posted by lexington
-> CG Images of development are designed to reflect a project in it’s best light – to make the development more attractive to both potential customers and planners in order to get the project up and running. The reason I rarely make comments on developments outside of Cork – other than the ones I may have some involvement in – is because I can’t comment on a project I know an insufficient amount on. I think to pass an ‘okay’ based on a montage that, anyone familiar with the development will tell you, is inaccurate with relation to its environment – is a little non-sensical. I thought An Taisce (and I think it must be remember I am referring to An Taisce Corcaigh here) are supposedly Champions for a Quality Life??? Then how come, they can find fault with a project they feel ‘overshadows a warehouse reflectant of Cork’s industrial heritage’, but not a project that detracts from Cork’s fading green areas and public space? And defaces a valuable and historical Cork structure (Tellengana Lodge?). Its completely contradictory! Now, I’m not advocating ‘overshadowing’ a valuable heritage reference – but then this is the inconsistency of the organisation in Cork. And I said, they ‘object to everything except where it matters’. (The Glen, Barrack Street, Tellengana, Dunkettle House, Brideview’s proposal for Rochestown etc) A link I posted a while back, showing how An Taisce brought OSB to appeal is a good example of their behaviour – but I can get some real beauties posted in addition to that one if requested also. (I don’t have them online as of yet – some are still in the Planning Process).
Sitting where I’m sitting, I cannot see any other building (good or bad) in the montage you supplied, all I can see is the subject proposal and a number of mature trees that will screen the subject building.
I suspect that you either live across the road from this proposal or commute to work along this route and wanted An Taisce to do your Nimby work for you.
The major case in Cork that I was involved in (in a very minor way) was Flatley at Castlehyde House, which you have not heard the last of.
If AT Cork feel a heritage building will be overshadowed they should say so, it is ultimately the Local Authority and the Bord who actually decide whether the building is worthy of absolute protection or not.
As for your assertion as to the disappearance of green space in Cork, it is obvious that you are being entirely selective as to one site. With absolutely no reference to the amount of green space being used by your favourite architectural gems such as the Watergold Building and Mahon Point as well as any other suburban retail warehousing park that has a tenant list.
Reviewed the plans for Rockfell’s Cornmarket Street project, and I must say, it’s looking very well.
Leesider – the row of houses at Carmelite Place (across the road from the former Greyhound Track) were due to be demolished a rebuilt in the form of 20 student apartments with basement car-parking under 2-storeys. Permission for this was refused. The developer is in negotiation with the nearby AIB in securing their premises to establish more space (with AIB leasing a new ground floor premises) for a new as yet undisclosed application.
sw101 – I don’t usually issue contact via this website. If there is an issue you wish to discuss in particular, could you brief me on this forum or outline what business you may be interested in and I’ll issue you a reply (through your messaging service perhaps???).
As for Diaspora – you make such relevant and good arguments when you do not resort to the tone and laughable assumptions that you do quite often – especially to me. I never attack you personally and I would assume that grown-ups on these forums could respect the opinions of others. And where they do not agree with such opinions – be tall enough to look beyond them.The montage I issued was the only one I had available to me at the time. Understand that I may in this instance have a greater insight into this project than you at this particular time and don’t make foolish assumptions.
As for letting An Taisce CORCAIGH do my nimbly work for me – as you put it – I would never do such a thing, nor would I trust them to do so. I have always, at my own expense, issued an objection where I feel relevant. And observation where I also feel relevant. If I do not do it directly, I fund reports for others of a similar persuasion to do so.
As for Tellengana House – I do not live or commute in the area of its construction (another assumption) – but as a city citizen I believe I am entitled to have an opinion as to how it is developed. As is anyone else – where logic and reason are paramount in such processes.
Watergold was constructed on a brownfield site – Mahon Point in commercially zoned land. Amenity space was catered for in line with the development – sufficiently. I also have invested significantly in a number of amenity areas and greenfields for conservation purposes (particularly around the Metropolitan Green Belt) – so don’t start that route. It’s also the reason I so very much favour city centre and docklands developments – so as to continue such preservation work.
Also, I’ve never favoured Mahon Point architecturally. Please Diaspora, do your research before you feel so confident as to slam others – and when you’ve calmed down, I look forward to hearing your relevant insights (which are always appreciated as they offer an alternate perspective) once again. Pity.
Calm Down,
You must be joking to think that I would lose my cool over someone who started a thread called ‘down with An Taisce’
I ignore this thread as much as possible, wading through Jack Fagan style tenant lists is about as interesting the architecture that will contain most of them.
I only enter this discussion when you cross the line on members of an organisation that I am an active volunteer member of.
Only once have they got it wrong from the images you have presented in my opinion, that was Water St and unfortunately that one didn’t make it anyway.
I can appreciate that Cork needs new projects, but just not all of the ones on this thread are particularly wonderful. With prime office rents of 23-27 per square foot it is hardly surprising, but competitively priced space and good architecture seldom go together.
I suggest that you are more selective in what you hype.
Originally posted by lexington
Thank you Diaspora – your true face shows. I don’t need to say anymore.Meaning exactly what?
I have never made any secret that I was a fan of An Taisce, I was honoured to consult to them, as soon as I concluded my work, I joined, I have no influence whatsoever over their planning monitoring. I work with historical properties in a hands on way.
I have also never said anything other than high property values equate to good architecture, take New York and more laterly London. Scarcity of quality stock drives up prices in that sub-market which allow for better architecture as the higher returns justify it.
So if pointing out that there is a link between low rental levels and moderate at best in some cases design quality I must not get the point.
Please – if, as you point out above, you try to avoid this thread as much as possible ‘wading through Jack Fagan style tenant lists’ – then clearly, you should perhaps avoid it full-stop. This is a thread for those who have an interest in Cork developments – and for those who wish to input constructively about them, or express a view with relation to them. If you wish to knock the progress of Cork, because Dublin is so mighty, then your input is unappreciated by me for one.
This forum does not need the personal insults of a cat in a corner – you have plenty of other threads in which you can express such opinions. And if you must insult me, because that makes you feel better, do so – but take it elsewhere and make sure you are correctly informed, correctly justified and correctly aware of who I am and what it is I do before you choose to do so. I will no longer continue to engage in a tennis match of personal attacks, or attacks on my home city.
[And by ‘your true face shows’ – I wasn’t referring to your An Taisce leanings – I was referring to the nature of your attitudes and low-brow level of reply in order to justify your opinion. I have never insulted you directly in such a way – I find it disappointing you have felt this to be your only method of response.]
This is not Dublin putting Cork down thing,
Cork has the makings of a fine City it has a University that punches far above its population weight and probably the best pharma industry per capita globally.
As I have said before you can say mass here if you want, but you will be inviting the presence of a ‘Desperado’ as you so diplomatically put it if you unjustly attack the local An Taisce association.
Phillip Mullalley of that branch has done more across a wide range of built and natural environmental fields than anyone of his generation.Originally posted by Diaspora
Calm Down,You must be joking to think that I would lose my cool over someone who started a thread called ‘down with An Taisce’
I ignore this thread as much as possible, wading through Jack Fagan style tenant lists is about as interesting the architecture that will contain most of them.
I only enter this discussion when you cross the line on members of an organisation that I am an active volunteer member of.
Only once have they got it wrong from the images you have presented in my opinion, that was Water St and unfortunately that one didn’t make it anyway.
I can appreciate that Cork needs new projects, but just not all of the ones on this thread are particularly wonderful. With prime office rents of 23-27 per square foot it is hardly surprising, but competitively priced space and good architecture seldom go together.
I suggest that you are more selective in what you hype.
Just for the record.
Diaspora – chill out man. I have to say I agree with Lexington here. The Blackrock Road is entirely residential with a reasonable amount of ‘grand old houses’. This isn’t Ballsbridge – it is a reasonably sleepy suburb with a small access road that is unsuited to widening. In such circumstances I would have to say that an office facility is wholly inappropriate. Similarly I’ve always felt that the office block alongside Ashton School was totally out of place. If the grounds of this old house need to be developed then why not with something more sympathetic such as low-density high-end housing? For myself and many others Lexington provides a remarkably comprehensive insight into what’s happening on the ground here in Cork – yes, he does bash An Taisce regularly, sometimes with good reason, sometimes possibly not. But don’t take it personally – until such time as your posts start heading the proactive route rather than your current reactive model, I would strongly suggest that you relax. This thread has made it to 20 pages with some great insights – criticise the message by all means, but for all our sakes leave the messenger out of it.
i have to agree with diaspora on the tellenganna issue.
The blackrock road is not a sleepy suburban avenue and an occasional (limited) small office development is not particularly harmful. there is a demand for urban offices outside the central island, not all office users want a south mall or lapps quay location, nor do they all want suburban ‘industrial’ locations. better here than little island or the airport i say.
in terms of traffic, the impact of the tellenganna development pales in comparison to the Lyonshall development in blackrock village.
in relation to visual impact, im unsure as the montage is just a single impression. i have no difficulty with placing a contemporary building in these grounds, as it doesnt represent a loss of green space per se, its not public land, and has no recreational value as an unused private garden space.
using the large gardens of major institutional or residential buildings is a dilemma. sometimes, however these happen to be in very central locations, and are hugely important urban land resources, also permitting limited development on these lands can be part of a trade off – this usually helps fund restoration/conservation of existing structures, and i think this is acceptable; and preferable to letting them rot away.
Diaspora, leaving aside the debate on this issue, re AT and Cork in general, i think it uneccesary that you undermine the nature of certain people’s contributions (ie tenant lists etc).
This thread is important, useful and valued by many, and contributions do not always relate directly to architecture or design, but is extremely informative for many (not all i appreciate). As someone with a keen interest in the City’s built environment and development scene, it happens to provide a rare insight into what is happening ‘down here’.
there is limited public discussion/debate on our built environment in this country, and in Cork, opportunities are very limited. Its good to have access to a source such as this and to be able to debate/discuss the city….at last.
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