Listed Buildings List

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    • #706110
      GrahamH
      Participant

      Where would I find/who would I contact to aquire a list of all listed buildings in the Dundalk area? Planning Dept in local authority?

      There is a beautiful small Regency villa on the road into Dundalk, in it’s large own grounds, surrouded by beautiful mature trees that was always kept immaculately until about 6 months ago, when it’s windows & fanlight were bricked up with concrete blocks, half of it’s roof stripped of it’s slates, and is now tainted with graffitti.

      I have no doubt this has been purposly done so the house can be declared ‘unsafe’, demolished, & hence maximise site value for resale.
      Confounded by the the construction of a large apartment dev next door, that undoubtedly rang ka-ching in the head of the house’s owner. And I’m not letting this one go.

      (yes, I have been reading the The Destruction of Dublin again)

    • #725534
      Paul Clerkin
      Keymaster

      Where in Dundalk?

    • #725535
      LOB
      Participant

      Try the local development plan
      In Dublin all the listed buildings are shown in the rear of the Development report by street
      The Planning dept is your best bet

      Ps They are now known as “protected structures” there are no longer different listing grades

    • #725536
      ew
      Participant

      I called Louth co-co planning for you (dull day) and list is indeed in the development plan. The current plan they are working with is the 1997 plan. The section you want is entitled “Buildings and Structures to be preserved”.
      Bad news is that it’s not published online. Copies available through public libraries.
      Good luck!

    • #725537
      LOB
      Participant

      may be of interest

      http://www.antaisce.org/cgi-bin/buildings/archives.cgi?f=keyword&keywords=louth

      Not always a huge fan of an Taisce’s actions.

    • #725538
      GrahamH
      Participant

      Thanks everyone, esp ew!

      The house is next door to the Louth Hospital, on it’s left, on the main Dublin road, opposite the Statoil garage.

      Architecturally, its not exactly spectacular, but is a charming example of a late Georgian ‘gentleman’s residence’.

      Its one storey in height, pebble-dashed (painted white), with a fanlighted doorcase in the centre (with tracery) Either side is a single 12 light, Georgian sash window, presumably therefore a reception room on either side.

      It has a large exposed slate roof, and is crowned with two symetrically placed chimneys. The site is surrounded with very tall mature trees, and the house, easily visible from the road, is approached via a winding drive.
      Numerous people I’ve been in the car with driving past have commented on how delapidated it has become, and how charming it once was.
      Its one of my favourite buildings in Dundalk, so you can be damn sure I’ll be in the Library first thing tomorrow!
      I’ve seen the ‘workmen’ on site myself, so there’s no vandalising of the standard nature going on here.

    • #725539
      GrahamH
      Participant

      Now that I think of it, the doorcase has corbels not columns, so we could be looking at 1840s

    • #725540
      Aken
      Participant

      Bravo Graham. I wish i could help you. I think more needs to be done to protect buildings such as that. the best of luck

    • #725541
      GrahamH
      Participant

      Arrrrgggghh!!!

      I could’nt get into Dundalk Library at the weekend, so I went into the National Library this morning. First, the attendant looked at me like I had 2 heads at the mention of a development plan, then I spent a good half hour looking through their index cataloge and their databases under every related title under the sun, but to no avail.
      Then a more senior attendant came out and suggested I try under Dundalk Urban District Council, so back to the catalouges and computers, again nothing. He said the local authorities are appaling for divulging info to the Ntl Library, an area he was personally responsible for.

      So he went away to get the chief Librarian, suffice to say she did’nt venture into the Reading Room but he came back and said that the Library had’nt aquired any of the Development Plans although they are persisting.

      So, back to Dundalk…..

    • #725542
      sinead
      Participant

      Why not ring the conservation officer in Louth Co.Co she will know surely off hand if it is included on the list of Protected Structures or possibly of the situation that surrounds it. Her name is Jill Chadwick. I’d imagine that she would like it brought to her attention, even if it is not included on the list, it may be a building that she may consider worthy of protection and could kick start the procedure to safeguard its future if its not too late in the day – hopefully its not subject to a planning application.

    • #725543
      GrahamH
      Participant

      Ah, now there’s an idea.

      As far as I can see, there is no, or ever was any planning notice at the front of the site.

      I’m getting very concerned now though as every day I pass, more and more tiles are dissappearing from the roof. Indeed I think most the slates from the front of the house have dissappeared over the weekend alone.

      It is the most sorry, dismal sight imaginable now. I’ll try and get a pic in the next couple of days. More importantly though, get it PROTECTED!!!

    • #725544
      ew
      Participant

      If they are original slate they are worth a fair bit – could it be genuine theft?

    • #725545
      GrahamH
      Participant

      IT’S PROTECTED!!!!!!

      Went into Dundalk Library today and slaved over lists, info & map after map, and there it was, on the Dundalk protected structures map in the midst of all those black & white lines, roads and terraces, the single orange square the size of a tic tac that I so wanted to see, indicating it’s status. Protected.
      Further research into the textulised list confirmed it, ‘an early 19th century single storey house’. Also, all of the trees surrounding the site are protected. Although, in the ‘importance’ section, there was nothing written such as ‘local’ or ‘regional’ importance. Also, under ‘comments’ where for other buildings it said ‘proposed’ or ‘omitted’, it said ‘submission’, whatever that means. Somewhat worrying.

      So I should ‘have a case’ in light of the written statement ‘The council will prevent the demolition or material alteration of buildings, features and sites listed in volume three’ (the list of all protected structures)

      How exciting! (were it not so grave)
      I’ll have to ring the conservation officer tomorrow then. They probobly keep some ludicrous hours like ‘telephone between the hours of 3 and 4.30’ but anyway.

      I feel like Desmund and Mariga Guinness in the 70’s, (only not so eccentric, and not so much money)

    • #725546
      GrahamH
      Participant

      Oh, and the slates are proper slates, probably Welsh or something. It is concievable I suppose that they are being nicked, although I have seen, as I said, ‘workmen’ on the site during the day, albeit a couple of months ago now.

    • #725547
      GrahamH
      Participant

      I’ll have a picture sometime this side of Christmas.

      I’ll stop posting now.

    • #725548
      Paul Clerkin
      Keymaster

      “Also, under ‘comments’ where for other buildings it said ‘proposed’ or ‘omitted’, it said ‘submission’, whatever that means. “

      that suggests to me that it hasn’t actually made the list yet…. but has simply been suggested for inclusion which afaik means its not covered at the moment…

    • #725549
      GrahamH
      Participant

      It was the 1996 plan, so hopefully…
      The conservation officer never rang me back today, and they’ve no answering machine or anything so I’ll try again in the morning. They’ve no e-mail address either.

    • #725550
      GrahamH
      Participant

      Well the tables have turned slightly.
      It would appear that the house suffered a small fire last year (a relative went to snoop around & have a look for me). And most of the slates are in a big pile on the ground infront of the building (which he ignorantly walked over). So it could be the case that work is being carried out on the house. After all, 500 slates don’t suddenly slide off a roof over a weekend.

      Also, a gardener was there cutting the grass so it appears that the site is being maintained and the owner is ‘pro-active’

      Still I’m not holding my breath, as I have yet any builders on site.

      But for the moment at least, I retract my earlier suggestions of deliberate neglect.

      After all, you must be mad in the head to neglect such a beautiful property.

      Then again, this is Ireland.

    • #725551
      urbanisto
      Participant

      Why are you so interested in the house Graham?

    • #725552
      GrahamH
      Participant

      Everyone has a building they like, or several. And if you saw it/them fall into a terrible state for no immediate reason you’d probably be concerned too.

      There is nothing that makes me sicker than seeing a period building fall into disrepair. It’s sentimental, cliched and every other ‘typical’ thing in the book, I know, but I don’t care.
      And the listing system is in place for a reason…

    • #725553
      Aken
      Participant

      So its good news for the house, right?

      Also i didnt know trees can be protected, and if so what is involved. I’ve notices several forests (yes entire forests!) dissapear in my local area over the last few years. I’ve checked OS maps and the area’s are marked as forested- decidious- land. Where have all the trees gone?

      Trees are mt own private crusade!

    • #725554
      ew
      Participant

      Good work Graham, and it’s good to see that the building may be being looked after – but do we know yet if the house in question is legaly protected at the moment?
      It annoys me that it is always so hard to get a clear answer in what should be such a simple matter. Has the conservation office called you back yet?

    • #725555
      GrahamH
      Participant

      Take one guess.

      I should be trying harder, and I will ring them on Monday. To be honest, I don’t know if it’s good news for the house yet but surely the conservation officer can find out. It looks positive anyway.

      Yes trees can be listed and bizzarly, views in urban areas can also be protected (& rightly so of course) Looking at the dev plan for Dundalk, hundreds of trees are protected, and there is literally acres of land, streets etc listed as protected views, even if the buildings themselves ar’nt protected.

      More bad news for Dundalk though, right at the heart of it’s Georgian core, two 18th century buildings have just been gutted by fire on Earl Street. Everything bar their now blackened facades are utterly lost, and these were also protected buildings. What a blow for a really beautiful area of the town.

    • #725556
      Rory W
      Participant

      But good news in Drogheda as the illegally demolished Grammer School is being rebuild (albeit as part of a shoping scheme)

    • #725557
      GrahamH
      Participant

      Where is it in the town? (or rather, was it)

    • #725558
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Originally posted by Aken
      Also i didnt know trees can be protected

      I remember when taking photos of the LUAS works on the Harcourt Street Line that the cut stone bridges were demolished, but the tress at the top of the cuttings had preservation orders, with dire consequences threatened against contractors if they demolished them.

      But then, this is Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council, the same council that sees Liebskind’s vision as positive for Dun Laoghaire.

    • #725559
      Rory W
      Participant

      The Drogheda Grammer School was on St Laurences Street. If you know the town it’s the street leading from West Street – the main shopping street – up the hill towards St Laurences Gate (the sole remaining gate from when Drogheda was a walled town). The site is near the gate on the right hand side.

    • #725560
      GrahamH
      Participant

      The saga comes to an end, and a happy one.
      It turns out the house has since been listed on the county dev plan and is now officially a ‘Protected Structure’.
      An application has also been lodged to refurbish the building with minor alterations to the rear, to begin in a few weeks.

      I have a print of the house only my scanner is broken. I’ll post it one day, not that its of great interest or anything but anyway, alls well that ends well.

      Thanks everyone who helped.

    • #725561
      urbanisto
      Participant

      Well done for your interest Graham

    • #725562
      Lotts
      Participant

      @Graham Hickey wrote:

      The saga comes to an end, and a happy one.
      It turns out the house has since been listed on the county dev plan and is now officially a ‘Protected Structure’.
      An application has also been lodged to refurbish the building with minor alterations to the rear, to begin in a few weeks.

      I have a print of the house only my scanner is broken. I’ll post it one day, not that its of great interest or anything but anyway, alls well that ends well.

      Thanks everyone who helped.

      A thread from the past ! (while looking for info on listing trees…)

      I was just wondering how the refurbishment went on this building?
      Graham?

    • #725563
      GrahamH
      Participant

      A blast from the past indeed, and in more ways than one :rolleyes: ๐Ÿ˜ฎ
      How much you can learn in the space of two years!

      It’s very strange you should dredge this up again Lotts, as the restoration/refurbishment has just been completed, with the boards on the new sashes only coming down in the past few days!

      I’ve no pictures of the restored house, and perhaps it would be inappropriate now that it is lived in again, but here are those dismal photos ‘promised’ over two years ago. The house is nothing spectacular, but charming nonetheless.
      Unfortunately as can be seen, it is reduced to a humble cottage without the fine doorcase and Georgian grid sashes in view:

      The grounds are what make the house. It is sited in a slightly elevated position, surrounded by mature trees including some delightful munkeypuzzles :), and approached via a short winding drive:

      A large but sympathetic addition was made to the house in the 50s/60s perhaps:

      …but this seems to have been demolished in the refurbishment, being replaced with a building mirroring the scale and proportions of the existing house, essentially doubling its size, creating a valley roof between the two.

      Unfortunate that the almost minature proportions of the house have been lost, but at least ithe extension is largely sympathetic and all-important sashes have been installed in it too ๐Ÿ™‚

    • #725564
      Lotts
      Participant

      It is a lovely little gem alright. It’d be a bit lost without the trees though. Hope they’re still there. It’ll be great to see smoke coming from the wonderfully symetrical chimney stacks in the winter. I know it’s probably due to the angle that the pics are taken but isn’t it lovely to see the lawn come right to the front of the house, rather than a drive and car-park.

      Delighted to hear it all ended well.

    • #725565
      fergus
      Participant

      could some one here also explain the different types/grades of conservation to an ignoramus on the subject like myself and also the consequences in terms of applications / building /remodeling on such properties subsequent to listing and the reason for county council(ors/s) apparent hesitence to grant preservation orders.

    • #725566
      Lotts
      Participant

      We don’t have grades here as far as I know. They do in UK though, you ofen hear refernce to grade 1 listed, blah blah.
      In Dublin the way it works is a building is protected if it is on the protected structures list, (aka Record of protected structures). Or on the draft list.
      If there is a limit to the protection it is stated in the description – for example “facade only”.
      That’s it as far as I can tell.

    • #725567
      ctesiphon
      Participant

      Fergus-

      See my post on this thread: https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=4080

      Once a building becomes a Protected Structure, the owner can apply to the Local Authority for a Declaration stating what works to the PS require Planning Permission and what words do not require PP, including works to the interior. This last is an important point.
      The Declaration is the de facto grading, i.e. sometimes only a facade is protected, sometimes the wallpaper and the Victorian chain pull on the jacks is protected.
      (Declarations are my thesis subject.)

      As far as I know, Preservation Orders are used only very rarely, though I don’t know why. I remember hearing that they are something of a last resort and that they tend to be reserved for structures in imminent danger that are of National significance, but don’t quote me.

      Hope this helps.

    • #725568
      GrahamH
      Participant

      When was the graded listing abolished ctesiphon – with the 2000 Act?

    • #725569
      ctesiphon
      Participant

      Technically, it was with the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act 1999, which was incorporated in its entirety into the 2000 Act.
      There are mixed views on the wholesale transfer of Listed Buildings onto the Record of Protected Structures, centering on the fact that the PS designation is far more onerous than was the previous listing, i.e. it’s not just the facades any more. This is why Declarations were introduced- to indicate to owners which bits of their PSs are of merit (architectural, historic, archaeological, artistic, cultural, social, scientific and/or technical). (Remembered the categories off the top of my head- wahey! ๐Ÿ˜Ž )

      John Gore-Grimes wrote an interesting article in the Irish Planning and Environmental Law Journal on the delights and tribulations (his phrase) of PS designation.
      See IPELJ, Vol. 10, No. 2, Summer 2003.

      I always thought the previous grading was a bit of a mess too, what with phrases like ‘It is an objective of the Council to seek the preservation…etc.’ and others. What planning needs is not vague subjective language open to interpretation- remember the Meath Co. Co. vs. An Taisce (or perhaps it was M. Smith- don’t recall) case re. the necessity of a local authority to ‘have regard to’ the Regional Planning Guidelines? MCC argued that they had had regard to the RPGs in drawing up their County Dev Plan but decided that they weren’t compatible with their (ahem) vision for the county.

      And so it goes…

    • #725570
      GrahamH
      Participant

      That’s interesting about Preservation Orders; I always though they were generalised speak for Protected Structure status, but clearly from what you say they have a different role.

    • #725571
      ctesiphon
      Participant

      Just checked out http://www.irishstatutebook.ie- from what I can gather Preservation Orders derive from National Monuments legislation rather than Planning legislation. A key point is the involvement of the Houses of the Oireachtas- probably explains why they are rarely used. From the examples I could turn up (from a quick Google), it seems I may have been right after all (whoda thought? :rolleyes: ) about the imminent danger/last resort/National importance aspect.

      FROM NAT MONS ACT 1930 (courtesy of our good friends at the Statute Book site)-

      8.รขโ‚ฌโ€(1) Where it appears to the Minister, on a report made by the Advisory Council or otherwise, that a monument which in his opinion is a national monument is in danger of being or is actually being destroyed, injured, or removed, or is falling into decay through neglect, the Minister may by order (in this Act referred to as a preservation order) entrust the preservation of such monument to the Commissioners.

      (2) The Minister may at any time, by order made after consultation with the Advisory Council, revoke a preservation order.

      (3) Every preservation order and every order revoking a preservation order shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas as soon as may he after it is made, and if a resolution is passed by either House of the Oireachtas within the next twenty-one days on which such House has sat annulling such order, such order shall be annulled accordingly but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done thereunder.

      (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA2Y1930S8.html)

      P.S. I presume ‘the Commissioners’ refers to the Commissioners for Public Works.
      P.P.S. I presume ‘the Advisory Council’ is the National Monuments Advisory Council.

    • #725572
      GrahamH
      Participant

      “The expression “the Commissioners” means the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland” ๐Ÿ™‚

      Thanks for that ctesiphon.
      Also of interest is that:

      “The expression “the Minister” means the Minister for Finance” ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

    • #725573
      Lotts
      Participant

      Are these declarations available in the public domain.If so do you know where thay can be found?
      (I guess this is a question for ctesiphon..!)

    • #725574
      ctesiphon
      Participant

      PDA 2000- IV/57/8/a-b:

      (8) A planning authority shall causeรขโ‚ฌโ€

      (a) the details of any declaration issued by that authority under this section to be entered on the register kept by the authority under section 7 [i.e. The Planning Register], and

      (b) a copy of the declaration to be made available for inspection by members of the public during office hours, at the office of the authority, following the issue of the declaration.

      Lotts-
      This is it in theory, but the practice (as so often) is somewhat different. My thesis is looking at the ways that local authorities deal with Declarations in practice, given the lack of funds, sufficiently skilled people, time, etc.

      So, yes, they are in the public domain; and they should be retrievable from the planning counter in the relevant local authority office.

    • #725575
      GrahamH
      Participant

      Just to clarify on a comment I made earlier – it could be construed that the conservation officer mentioned before was in some way unhelpful by my saying they never telephoned back after leaving a message with someone else. Though I did not recieve a call, it was clearly an office error, as subsequent dealings with the said person have proved them to be most helpful, accommodating and courteous.

      Rather it was aimed at the civil service stereotype – ‘compu’er says nooo’ as it were ๐Ÿ˜€
      Think it appropriate to clear up.

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