Limerick Transport
- This topic has 277 replies, 34 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 9 months ago by
.
- Posts
It’s funny actually, but if you look at the maps, the Co Council have all their bus lanes built.
The emerging preferred route corridor for the proposed M20 Limerick Cork motorway can be viewed here.
The project is being divided into 3 sections:
- Blarney – Mallow
- Mallow – Croom
- Croom- Attyflin
The only section likely to be completed in the near future is Mallow to Croom, however this is definitely the most urgent as it would take out the worst stretch of the existing N20. It is hoped construction could start in 2010.
I know this is a plannng forum but since the city council (with the connivance of adjacent councils) are determined to make a hames of the QBC’s I thought I would throw out some of my own ideas regarding light rail. A feasibility study for LRT in Limerick was promised in the programme for govt. but everyone in govt. (except the impotent Greens) has mysteriously forgotten about it. It wouldn’t cost the earth to carry one out.
I won’t go on about the route details, only to point out that all lines start at the train station, and this should be an absolute no brainer to anyone vaguely familiar with the principles of good urban planning and simililarly all terminate at suburban P&R’s.
Limerick has the population to support LRT but the population patterns around it are a mess. The question isn’t if but when in my view and no amount of farting around with bus corridors is going to enable Limerick to become the Gateway city the NSS says it must become if the west of the courntry is to develop properly. A plan should be drawn up and integrated with the city center strategic plan and the regeneration plans and favoured routes protected from future development. Certain locations can then be zoned for transit oriented developmet as for example the Hyde rd. area. The transit routes on my plan can for the most part be accomodated with exising surface rights of way, thus minimizing costs.
There are issues w/ the existing rail lines that limit their use in a suburban context. But again provided the stops are limited in number and passing loops are built in, these limitations can be overcome.
The Corbally side does not have a population density to support a light rail line or a stop on the existing line but I put one in anyway because peak period traffic in Corbally is horrendous. The waterbus idea has more going for it especially at peak times. Free parking as part of a package of incenitves & disincentives could make this work but other pickup points at the Irish estates and shannon banks would also help if they were feasible. The UL waterbus has already been mooted. A lock at the Park bridge though would slow traffic down considerably and I don’t have an answer to that one.
You can get back to your roads now fellas I’ve made my speech and spoke my mind …for the time being..
When you write about LRT for Limerick city I presume you would be talking about Trams like the LUAS in Dublin? I wonder would a population of just a 100.000 be enough to justify such a system?
Ideally the trams should criss-cross the city centre and I can only think of three destinations for them to serve i.e.
Route: Parkway (Valley) S.C. / University / Plassey Technological park.
Route: Crescent S.C. / Regional Hospital / Raheen Industrial estate.
Route: Ennis road / Maternity / Gaelic Grounds / Coonagh S.C.In my opinion to run the city trams on the existing rail network would not achieve much.
- Colbert station is not central enough to the city centre.
- It is a cul-de-sac station.
- The university / Plassey Technological park are not served by it.
- The Ennis road area / Coonagh S.C. are also not served by it.
- The existing rail network runs only on the peripheral of the Raheen area.
That would mean to me that the trams would have to share the roads / streets with other vehicles to service these routes.
The street trams would then have the same congestion problems as the buses and worse when some incident blocks their way, it cannot overtake it like a bus can.
I think a bus system with QBCs would serve Limerick city better.
Light Rail Transit (LRT) is a sort of catch-all that might include elements of an on street tram system but may also include dedicated tunnels, elevated track sections etc. But yes I do mean something like the Luas only less ambitious in terms of civil engineering work to keep costs down. Something like what GLUAS propose http://www.gluas.com/ for Galway maybe. The last I heard around March this year, Noel Dempsey said there would be a feasibility study undertaken, beginning April, and the final report would be published in the middle of next year, so its a live issue as far as I’m concerned and deserves some attention.
As the GLUAS website points out Valenciennes in Northern France has a population of only 42,000 yet has embraced LRT and opened its first line in ’06 . More and more small to medium sized cities are looking at LRT, even cities that moth-balled tram systems in the 70’s. This ins not only because of their unrivalled payload capacities but because its become increasingly apparent that no other public transport system, even bus rapid transit systems (BRT) are able to attract the ridership of light rail. (In one North American study I came across from 2002 BRT systems (which are superior to QBCs) only succeeded in attracting 33% of their projected ridership whereas LRTs attracted 122% of theirs). That said I believe CIE were hoping to try BRT in Limerick and I’d like to see it in action. How theyll do this now though I don’t know as the council is not amenable to bus lanes in the city. They’re not a cheap alternative to LRT either http://www.politics.ie/transport/36340-light-rail-vs-bus-4.html
As I already pointed out the problem with Limerick is not the size of the population per se but the distribution of the population throughout the city. The population densities are probably too low to support a LUAS at this juncture which is why I’m not holding my breath about the feasibily study. The Colbert station area is a case in point. Railway stations are the heartbeat of a ciy. No large town can function without a properly functioning railway station. But look at the area around Colbert! The Hyde rd/Carey rd. area ought to be high density mixed use development attracting business into the city by now. Bear in mind most of this land is owned or controlled by the local authority and other public instituions. Instead it’s a wasteland of shoddy public housing and dereliction. The one good thing about this though is planners have a blank canvas to plan something like a LRT terminus on publicly owned land right next to the station. And thats why I’m in favour of producing a plan now before this land is finally sold off to the highest bidder for some short sighted gain.
I wasn’t suggesting running trams on the existing lines actually. I was thinking how a rail station at Moyress would work (this was included in the draft regeneration plan for Moyress) and figured in order for it to be viable there would need to be a regular service to the station which the Ennis-Limerick service could not fulfil since it only runs 8? times a day etc. The only solution to my mind would be a suburban rail service using DMUs with passing loops and additional stops to make it viable. This was just one solution in addition to waterbuses to help alleviate traffic and provide people with a viable public transport option in this part of the city.
The routes you suggest are much the same as the ones I put in the diagram except I’d probably opt for the alternative western route taking in Moylish rather than the Gaelic Grouds say. The city center is well served by these routes even interfering at one point with the planned orbital traffic flow system so I’m not sure what you getting at here.The more important point I felt was that all 3 lines should terminate w/ P&R faciliities at the edge of the city to soak up incoming traffic and terminate at the station (or vice versa). Combined with an improving commuter rail service to the city I think Limerick city centre & suburbia would open up completely and could become a model for sustainable urban public transport in Ireland.
Commuter Rail
Certainly there is great potential for a Dart type of commuter service to link the main towns with Limerick city. The present rail network infrastructure would facilitate most of it. In four decades time (2050) we would probably see a doubling of the population living in urban areas around the mid-west.
- Limerick 100.000 -> 200.000
- Ennis 25.000 -> 50.000
- Shannon 10.000 -> 20.000
- Nenagh 7.500 -> 15.000
- Thurles 7.500 -> 15.000
- Tipperary 5.000 -> 10.000
- Newcastle West 5.000 -> 10.000
With this type of critical mass one could operate a decent enough electric rail service (Dart) between these centres with stops at the numerous villages (P&R) along the way.
Gluas / Luas
The way we choose to live today in the city i.e. an ever expanding spawn of housing estates out into the country side just makes public transport in general unattractive and expensive to operate. I think we don’t live compact enough (i.e. apartments) to get the benefits from the economies of scale from such investments
I fear the motor car (electric) will remain the number one choice for commuting.
Colbert Station
The big question would be in which direction will the city centre expand?
- Down river: after a transfer of the docks to Foynes?
- Across the river: either side of Condell road?
- Towards: Kings Island / Clare Street (Park canal)?
- Outwards: Mulgrave Street?
Will the city council re-focus the expanding direction of the city centre towards the railway station?
Certainly the area around the station like you said, should have a high density mixed use to make it an attractive destination to travel to from outside the city. The nearby three story council flats on Hyde road don’t meet today’s standards or the boxed-in Jackman park is pretty much handicapped here to develop to its full potential as a soccer stadium.
Hyde Road
This road could have been the ideal direct link between the planned city centre orbital route and the Rosbrien interchange junction for Dublin, Waterford and Cork. Of course that would have meant re-locating a school and Young Munsters playing grounds.
Ennis-Limerick Commuter: Image by Kpmarek
I’ve been messing around with a route for a light rail/electric bus system for a while.
Link:
I must admit to finding the proposals from the cllrs about having the bus lanes moved quite odd. Shouldn’t they first be proposing that the routes move and then look for the new lanes in those areas? They won’t of course because they would be opposed to the routes changing, so we were to follow their logic we would end up with bus lanes with no buses.
colognemike
The renovation of the Patrickswell to Charleville section of the old Great Southern will probably appear in the next NDP if not before. In addition to reducing the journey time on the Limerick-Cork line to just 1hr by some accounts it would also mean rail access to Limerick for Charleville, Bruree & Croom. The City Council would prefer people not to commute at all and to move to the city centre to work but I believe ‘total journey quality’ is the way to go wtih quality intercity/regional rail links serving train stations in cities, light rail networks serving the main spine(s) of cities and a range of buses from imps to double deckers radiating out from the centre and other strategic locations serving all the other neighbourhoods and areas of the city. Well planned quality public transport is imo the only way to attract owner occupiers esp. families into the c/cs because cars aren’t really an option in the middle of a city, at least not 2 per family. Many Londoners don’t have cars and don’t miss them.
I had a look at the city centre strategy yesterday and in fairness to the council they do recognise the land in the Hyde Park area is underutilized and ripe for development. What they intend doing about it to attract developers in is another thing. It ought to be a priority imo. The right sort of development there could also stimulate regeneration of the Georgian quarter .(v. important). It will need to dovetail in with the planned regeneration of B.Weston & Southill aswell http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vauban_(Freiburg)) ).
Dan
Interesting plan. Nice to know there’s somebody else in Limerick seriously thinking about this. I guess you’re opting for a tram-train solution. I’m not sure if that’s the right way to go. The existing rail alignments skirt round the city and don’t really penetrate the heavily populated areas so I’m not sure if you’d get the ridership to make it viable here. Also I’m not a big fan of single track and passing loops (even though I suggested employing them myself) because they’d slow the system right down. Trams every 15 minutes! No other trains, like freight trains or future Cork intercity trains could use this piece of track with that kind of burden on the line. And you don’t have any route for the north of the river either. Why not?That said I certainly agree the route must come into contact w/ Colbet station and the city centre. There’s no way of avoiding Charlotte’s Quay either which is a pity because that pinch pont at Baal’s bridge won’t accomodate 2 lines of track (my plan) and heavy orbital road traffic as well.
What will the Hyde and Colbert station quarter become ?
Railway quarter?. This part of the city is ripe for development for sure. To be honest, This part of town, is crucial to have a good balance of prime building’s landmarks fronting onto colbert station. This is the frontage to the city for many commuter’s coming into the city by Rail and Bus. This part of town, needs investment to counter balance the Georgian and newly redeveloped blocks in town.I notice that Catherine street is coming along now, and many derelict sites have got planning permission to redevelop many parts of this street. Is this street part of the Hyde road/Colbert station quarter. I’m excited to see the plans I must say.
Query, does anyone have any maps of the current road layout of the Inner ring road proposed that actually runs along Colbert station? How are they going to conjoined this with the new city quarter on this block:confused:
@Dan Sullivan wrote:
I’ve been messing around with a route for a light rail/electric bus system for a while.
@jpsartre wrote:
Dan: There’s no way of avoiding Charlotte’s Quay either which is a pity because that pinch pont at Baal’s bridge won’t accomodate 2 lines of track (my plan) and heavy orbital road traffic as well.
Maybe a Schwebebahn ~ Suspension Tramway solution from Wuppertal (pop. 350.000) would be interesting for Dan’s proposal. Sure its visual impact would be way over the top, but cheaper than a metro and traffic congestion free!
The river route could look like this:
- Raheen Industrial Estate
- Mid-Western Regional Hospital Campus
- Crescent Shopping Centre
- Former Greenpark Race Course
- Mary Immaculate Training College
- Docklands Business Park / Proposed Re-development Of Ted Russell’s Docks
- Riverpoint / Along The Quays / Over Sarsfield’s Bridge
- Arthur’s Quay (City Centre)
- Suspended Over The River Abbey
- Suspended Over The Canal
- Through Rebogue
- Rarkway (Valley) Shopping Centre
- Castletroy Hotel
- University Campus
- Technological Park
Images below from © Peter Bosbach
@jpsartre wrote:
colognemike
The renovation of the Patrickswell to Charleville section of the old Great Southern will probably appear in the next NDP if not before. In addition to reducing the journey time on the Limerick-Cork line to just 1hr by some accounts it would also mean rail access to Limerick for Charleville, Bruree & Croom. The City Council would prefer people not to commute at all and to move to the city centre to work but I believe ‘total journey quality’ is the way to go wtih quality intercity/regional rail links serving train stations in cities, light rail networks serving the main spine(s) of cities and a range of buses from imps to double deckers radiating out from the centre and other strategic locations serving all the other neighbourhoods and areas of the city. Well planned quality public transport is imo the only way to attract owner occupiers esp. families into the c/cs because cars aren’t really an option in the middle of a city, at least not 2 per family. Many Londoners don’t have cars and don’t miss them.
I had a look at the city centre strategy yesterday and in fairness to the council they do recognise the land in the Hyde Park area is underutilized and ripe for development. What they intend doing about it to attract developers in is another thing. It ought to be a priority imo. The right sort of development there could also stimulate regeneration of the Georgian quarter .(v. important). It will need to dovetail in with the planned regeneration of B.Weston & Southill aswell http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vauban_(Freiburg)) ).
Dan
Interesting plan. Nice to know there’s somebody else in Limerick seriously thinking about this. I guess you’re opting for a tram-train solution. I’m not sure if that’s the right way to go. The existing rail alignments skirt round the city and don’t really penetrate the heavily populated areas so I’m not sure if you’d get the ridership to make it viable here. Also I’m not a big fan of single track and passing loops (even though I suggested employing them myself) because they’d slow the system right down. Trams every 15 minutes! No other trains, like freight trains or future Cork intercity trains could use this piece of track with that kind of burden on the line. And you don’t have any route for the north of the river either. Why not?That said I certainly agree the route must come into contact w/ Colbet station and the city centre. There’s no way of avoiding Charlotte’s Quay either which is a pity because that pinch pont at Baal’s bridge won’t accomodate 2 lines of track (my plan) and heavy orbital road traffic as well.
My idea is that the route should follow areas that would then be designated to allow for higher density development. To create the local population nodes that would make the service viable. Also while some of the route does go over existing train lines, those lines are not in use in many cases.
I’ve never seen that system in Wuppertal before. Its class. It’d be very interesting to see what modern engineering, architecture and technology could do when building a system like this to reduce visual impact.
@jpsartre wrote:
colognemike
The renovation of the Patrickswell to Charleville section of the old Great Southern will probably appear in the next NDP if not before. In addition to reducing the journey time on the Limerick-Cork line to just 1hr by some accounts it would also mean rail access to Limerick for Charleville, Bruree & Croom.
It’s gonna appear in the next NDP?
How certain is this?
It would be a great asset to Limerick as the route passes just by Raheen and other areas of the city.But hasn’t most of that route been turned into a walkway for the People of Abbeyfeale and NCW???
A Direct service to Cork would be amazing but how likely is it that it would happen?
Slim to nothing in my opinion.I read in the paper this week that St. John’s Pavillion is to be pulled down to make way for an orbital route through road.
Here’s a revised city centre LRT route map that avoids Charlotte’s Quay and locates the main terminus at Brown Thomas – no way of avoiding Mallow street though (which forms part of the orbital road route).
[ATTACH]8680[/ATTACH]
PoxyS.
In my view a direct line between Cork & Limerick will probably appear in the next NDP. The current plan runs till 2013 and Transport 21 till 2015 so you’re talking the bones of 10 years before the first sod is turned. I’m also assuming the economy picks up again sooner rather than later and there won’t be a great backlog of other infrastructural projects on the Minister’s desk.The Regional Planning Guidelines (which inform the NSS, which in turn provides a framework for the NDP) for the South West Region said this back in ’04.
In view of the proximity and populations of the Cork and Limerick Gateways, the direct linking by rail of Cork and Limerick is an option for consideration, as critical mass increases. Rail connection between Cork-Mallow and Limerick is currently via Limerick junction, involving a change of trains.The Regional Authority proposes that a feasibility study be undertaken to examine the construction of a new rail link between Charleville and Patrickswell, thus directly linking Cork and Limerick. This strategy would have an additional benefit of adding to the overall viability of the proposed Western Rail Corridor, by making the route more direct and cutting journey times. It would also contribute to the revitalisation of the Limerick-Foynes line, by creating the potential for improved access for commuters to both Gateways and for freight traffic. The route for this proposal needs to be protected…
…both councils should consider the land use strategies, which could be adopted to make the economic case for reinstating this line and developing direct Cork-Limerick rail services. Some of these are already in place – for example, the CASP land use proposals from Midleton to Mallow – but similar integrated strategies are required right along the line. The adoption of such strategies would underpin the feasibility of reinstating direct Cork-Limerick rail services.
This was quickly followed by other spatial strategy related reports such as the Atlantic Gateways Iniative (’06) which also made a case for the line being reopened but only after more pressing infrastuctural deficits such as inadequate connectivity between the regional cities and the capital city were addressed.
The M20 will be the big stumbling block imo. Noel Dempsey recently said that the proposed Shannon-Limerick rail link had been a victim of improved road infrastructure in the region which made it much less viable than it otherwise would’ve been. (I assume he was referring to the toll road and tunnel etc.)
I also think we haven’t woken up to the future consequences of of total oil dependance in this country yet. When we do the investment focus will switch to rail as is already happening in most other industrialised countries.
Abbeyfeale is on the North Kerry line that terminated at Listowel(?). But the Charleville to Patrickswell alignment is in a no better state right now as far as I know.
@Griff wrote:
Can anyone direct me to where I can see how the new Motorway to Dublin ties in with the existing roundabout beyond Finnegans restaurant – its impossible to work out where traffic coming down the Newport road will meet the roundabout .
N7/M7 Newport Interchange (Annacotty)
I came across this image at the weekend and needless to say I’m not too impressed with the NRA’s solution for the Newport Interchange at Annacotty.
The interchange feeds onto one large roundabout which distributes the flow of traffic for three slipways of the new N7/M7 (i.e. Southbound diverge, Southbound merge, Northbound diverge) and a new re-aligned road (R-445 East) which serves the separated Northbound merge slipway.
The old N7 primary road (R-445 West) from the city and the original Newport road (R-503) also feed onto the roundabout.
It seems that the N7 / M7 will run under the roundabout.
One would think with all the land available outside the city that they could easily build an interchange on just one site. No instead they choose a spot in the middle of a cluster of one off bungalows and a very small housing estate thus restraining itself to separate the Northbound merge from the rest of the interchange proper.
No lessons learnt here from the flawed Ballysimon, Rossbrien and Dooradoyle interchanges! 😮
Yeah I’m afraid the NRA have bottled it once more, they simply cannot design motorway interchanges. Here they have gone for the bargain basement option, the one that handles traffic the least skillfully! What is the point in building such a basic interchange when the likelihood is that it will have to be upgraded with great difficulty and at huge expense in the not too distant future?:rolleyes:
Realistically, the only interchange that is up to the required spec on the Southern Ring Road is the tie-in with the N18. The Rossbrien interchange may be free-flow but crucially it is lacking two movements (N20 to Childers Road and N7 Southbound to Childers Road) which will have a knock-on impact on the substandard Newport, Ballysimon and Dock Road interchanges.
Unfortunately things arent going well on the Limerick – Nenagh project.
Apparently only a skeleton staff have been working on the scheme since January. The motorway is being built by an Irish-Portugese joint venture (RAC Eire/ Bothair Hibernian) but issues have emerged over the non payment of local subcontractors. As a result, work has slowed right down and at the moment is unclear whether the road which was due to open in May will actually be completed at all this year!:mad:
I’ve managed to rob some photos from Furet at Boards.ie
The N-L scheme looking towards the tie-in with the Nenagh Bypass from the Limerick side.
The N-L scheme looking towards Limerick from just off the N7 past the Limerick end of the Nenagh Bypass.
The L-N scheme close to Birdhill looking towards Limerick.
The L-N scheme close to Birdhill looking towards Nenagh.
Park and Ride facility plans stalled
Limerick Leader 13 March 2009 By Nick Rabbitts
PLANS for Limerick’s first ever park and ride facility near Annacotty has stalled after the NRA objected to the proposals.
Last month, Limerick County Council gave the green light to the plans, which also provide for facilities including a restaurant, shops, a tourist information centre and a play area.
But following a written submission by the National Roads Authority, the case has been referred to An Bord Pleanala.
The NRA has said that granting the application will put the safety of that stretch of road at risk. 🙁
Tara Spain, NRA senior planning policy advisor, wrote: “In the opinion of the authority, the decision to grant runs counter to the objectives of protecting the carrying capacity, operational efficiency and safety of the national roads network.”
The authority also raised concerns on additional congestion in the area, and the number of facilities planned for the development – which will be named the Newport Interchange.
At the start of this year, Limerick city councillors were presented with a public transport feasibility study which investigated the possibility of introducing additional green routes in and out of the city.
The study will go to Transport Minister Noel Dempsey this summer.
And the NRA feels that until a report is given off the back of this, plans for a park and ride are “premature.”“The authority is also aware that Limerick City Council is required to undertake a public transport feasibility study.
“It is considered that such a study must investigate, interalia, the provision of park and ride facilities in support of improved public transport options.
“Thus the proposed park and ride element of the permission granted by Limerick City Council in respect to this proposed development may be considered premature pending the completion of the Public Transport Feasibility study to inform a coherent strategy for the provision of park and ride facilities and sites in tandem with the provision of dedicated or improved public transport corridors,” Ms Spain wrote.
When the local planning authority granted permission to the development, they ruled out the building of a garden centre. 😮 But the NRA does not feel this goes far enough.
“While the authority supports the decision by Limerick County Council to omit the garden centre, it is the view of the authority that the range of facilities provided in a service area should be targeted solely at servicing the needs of the road user rather than endeavouring to attract additional custom through other facilities and thereby creating additional journeys on the network,” Ms Spain wrote.
Residents of Lisnagry also lodged objections to the plan, but these were considered invalid by the national planning authority.
An Bord Pleanala has until the end of June to make a ruling on the application.
The developers, David Murphy and Finbarr Smiddy, were not available for comment.
I think the Limerick County Council are hell bent on adding more potential havoc at the Newport Interchange. Is it not the remit of the NRA to decide where motorway services are located?
I agree with the NRA here. This ‘Park and Ride’ is nothing more than a shopping centre where the carpark is also used as a park and ride. It would attract extra cars into this area rather than take them off the road. The NRA has every right to object as it would seriously undermine the juction they are building at the moment. (which is inadequite anyway.)
I dont think any services are needed this close to the city. A pure park and ride facility could work though. It would add extra traffic to the junction, but it would also do a lot to reduce traffic in the city
A couple of years back the NRA belatedly announced the rollout of service areas along the main inter-urban routes.
Basically their plan is to have service areas at 50/60 km intervals on major roads. At the moment, the proposed locations along the M7 are outside Mountrath and at a location between Nenagh and Roscrea. It makes absolutely no sense to locate a service area this close to the city. There are 3 filling stations located a short distance away along with many other facilities.
Bus Eireann have already admitted anyway that they are not in a position to offer any increase in services along this route. Indeed I believe they are in process of reducing their Limerick fleet.:rolleyes:
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
