Liam Carroll: I did it my way?
- This topic has 187 replies, 27 voices, and was last updated 16 years, 6 months ago by
.
- Posts
@Bricks wrote:
He was once offered two free tickets for a Uefa champions league tie to see Man Utd play away to Inter Milan by a building supplier. Unfortunately for the genorous building supplier he couldn’t understand why Dave slammed down the phone on him in a rage.
I had a feeling it wasn’t Man Utd he supported, but that makes it all the more fun, to spread mis-information doesn’t it? I can’t help taking the piss, I know he takes his soccer quite seriously, even more seriously than Royceton at times perhaps.
Back to your views of Royceton becomming an independant entity within the construction industry, I would have to agree with you. I think Royceton had a unique insight into the workings of a building site and I would be encouraged if Royceton had to opportunity to go down this road.
It is a legal minefield though, because so little control over the company was offered to the directors of the company by Carroll. That and the fact that LC would not allow new management in to challenge him. That is not to say that LC didn’t hire people from time to time, to augment the team. They were very capable people at whatever level they became involved. But there was some element there missing – primarily in judging the ‘capital structure’ of the company, as it faced into uncertain economic times.
I believe that LC’s impression of the financial side of a company was – nothing inside his company was ever going to adapt or change in any way – and likewise, in LC’s brain, nothing in the external environment was ever going to change either to treaten in any way, the fundamentals of his plan. How does someone so big operate like that? This is why I always come back to the same old chestnut – arrogance, with filtered down throughout the lesser ranks, until it became lodged in everything, and how everything was done.
The trouble is, in the building industry, arrogance is one of those things you need to be successful. Without it, the best you could ever hope to be, is one those consultant architects who always take orders from guys such as Carroll. And seem quite content to take orders too. But arrogance, while it drove Zoe developments on to achievements, was at the same time sowing the seeds of destruction. If you get my meaning, one thing hiding behind another.
Brian O’ Hanlon
Once banks stopped lending, as they were forced to do earlier this year, the market collapsed. Developers were left holding properties whose rental incomes were a ruinously small fraction of their interest payments, and banks discovered that their collateral was worthless.
You know reading, an old Irish Times article by economist Morgan Kelly published two days before last Christmas, I could not help but agree with many of his observations.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/1223/1229728473144.html
I mean, for heaven’s sake, two days before Christmas. The government must have been relying on the fact, that most sane individuals would be more worried about their shopping. No one, except for the die hards of die hards could possibly raise much protest on a day like December 23rd. But Morgan Kelly sure did add his tupence worth. He did so again, as we know in the Zoe developments case. A well timed contribution it was also.
Indeed, much of what I went to the trouble to do at this particular Archiseek thread, has been to add transparency. That is a tall order, but maybe a little glimmer of light might peek through all of the dirt and scandal. I don’t know. I read a very good comment by some journalist in the Irish newspapers this week – accountability, what is that anyhow? How is ever accountable for anything. We have been talking in Ireland about accountability for the last decade, and I am still not sure what it is supposed to mean.
Brian O’ Hanlon
Here is my Vietnam theory on the Liam Carroll case.
After doing some homework of my own, I have learned ACC bank were actively pursuing Liam Carroll to develop a lender’s relationship with him. Why would they do that? There were obvious signs that a recession was in the pipeline. ACC bank were certainly not suffering from property fever, not by that late stage in the game. I don’t buy it. So what else was on their minds?
Probably, ACC bank could see what was about to happen with property in Ireland. I would call it a kind of short selling – that is, ACC bank knew the defaulted loan could potentially buy a lot more of Carroll’s empire, and that of other property developers within a short space of time. There was excess money in the system anyhow, so pepper around €100 million here and €100 million there, and who knows, out of it all, you might win the lottery.
(Those of you more skilled at trading than me, can inform me whether I should be thinking long or short in this case. Basically, ACC bank lend a nominal amount which in turn produces an asset of a larger potential value)
ACC bank could see distress coming down the tracks for both Irish banks and Irish developers. This isn’t really a war between ACC Bank and LC. It is a war between ACC bank and other banks. LC and the north docklands is the Vietnam, Afganistan, Korea, Cuba or whatever you want to call it. The Prime Time feature is correct, the north docklands is ‘Limbo Land’, rather than NAMA land.
There appears to be a ‘sub-text’ in this Liam Carroll court case, that many of us find difficult to read. There is a lot about the current state of affairs, which we find difficult to grasp. Including the enormity of the problems themselves. Enormous, that is, from Ireland’s domestic point of view. John McManus wrote something of interest in today’s Irish Times.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/0921/1224254908745.html
It builds on some of the observations of economist Pat McArdle in last Friday’s newspaper.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0917/1224254723373.html
Brian O’ Hanlon
John Downes article in todays Sunday Tribune newspaper was a good read and John has thought carefully about the Zoe legacy to Dublin’s built environment.
http://www.tribune.ie/news/article/2009/nov/01/a-to-zoe-of-liam-carroll-king-of-the-shoeboxes/
All together it was a very fair account written by a journalist with a keen interest in the social cross section of a city. As always I will endeavour to defend the in-defend-able, in keeping with the best traditions in journalism, or blogging, a form of seudo-journalism.
I was watching a documentary about Fleetwood Mac on the television this evening. There was one comment about a period in the bands life, when they fired their band manager and gave over the management duties to their drummer. Accordingly, things got very ‘big’ all of a sudden. They had to hire separate limousines for each member of the band at airports. Each limousine represented a different style of music within the band.
That form of ostentatious over-spending was never present in the Zoe organisation. But the elements of internal frictions, energy and the creative process were present. Like whenever a group of people get together to do something cooperatively.
These property development firms are an awful lot like rock bands in a way. Some music bands do produce really good quality stuff which lasts. Others take advantage of the ‘market’ a little bit. What I do know, is that when you are working on the inside, there are strong personalties. To survive within the group, your personality has to be equally big to withstand criticism etc. There were a lot of big personalities within Zoe. Maybe that constant friction had a negative impact. Maybe it distracts from the needs of the community you mean to serve.
Make no mistake about it, the guys in Zoe had their differences, but no one wanted to leave the band. Fleetwood Mac talked a lot about their ‘bubble’, their world within their world. A lot of them worked really hard. A lot of guys worked themselves to exhaustion. It was an industry. Hopefully now, many will have a chance to reflect. To think about some of the points in this article by John Downes. Hopefully, future participants in the business can get it right for Dublin and for Ireland.
Check out that documentary on the band Fleetwood Mac if you get a chance. They went through a lot of daft experiments in developing the ‘creative process’ also. Sometimes the creative process was exactly the thing that suffered. Many architects who made their reputations through Zoe developments. They needed Zoe a lot more than Zoe needed them. They would jealousy back up the status quo within company, in order to preserve their own option to succeed as designers and have their reputation enhanced.
There is that to think about too. For many architects, the creation of one’s own image and fame is more important than anything else. Like I said, a property firm is not too different from a rock band.
Brian O’ Hanlon
Hi All,
Reading thread, interesting. It seems the Liam Carroll of Zoe Dev I remember has been replaced by an imposter. I also did work for him but stopped as I had standards I would not compromise. The Liam Carroll I knew would not spend Christmas, his own house had not seen any maintenance in possibly twenty years. I cannot be absolutely certain but I understood he carried a big jar of petroleum jelly around so he did not miss an opportunity to screw someone. He had no regard for any health and safety on his sites ( it was this point at which I drew the line ) and people died needlessly. Do not feel sorry for Liam no matter what happens he will have stashed plenty away that the receivers will never see and he will retire on a very nice pension indeed.Instead feel sorry for all those who have lost everything by his welcome demise.
Solo,
Good to hear your input – you seem to speak from experience indeed. I agree with you. When one person, with a narrow vision of the world gets complete control of an operation carrying billions in debt, it is seriously wrong. I suppose at the time, I wrote much of the above, I was trying see how one could debate things with regard to the construction industry. I watched a very feeble attempt on RTE this evening on Pat Kenny’s The Frontline TV show.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0315/thefrontline.html
A much, much better attempt was offered by Pat in his interview with Thomas Duffy linked below.
Procurement
25 February 2010 12:00
Thomas Duffy, from Duffy Chartered Engineers in Louth.http://www.rte.ie/radio1/podcast/podcast_patkenny.xml
I mean to say – the brick layers unions had plenty to say when the times were great. Now that brick layers really need suggestions, I don’t hear of any unions making any. Presumably the same unions made a lot of money to pay people to do some thinking also, during the Celtic Tiger. That is what astonishes me quite frankly. Over 200,000 construction workers left without a livelihood, and no attempt at constructive debate whatsoever. Is that what Ireland is really like?
Brian O’ Hanlon
P.S. Solo, one question if I may. Did you work in one of Liam Carroll’s companies, for instance, Zoe developments or as an external consultation/services provider to Liam Carroll? This question is significant. People have very different perceptions of who he was, what he was about etc, etc. I wrote a Designcomment blog entry, Drinking and Property, a while back about the issue.
http://designcomment.blogspot.com/2009/09/drinking-and-property.html
Both
Interesting. Thanks.
Brian O’ Hanlon.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
