Is Dublins Underground rail network a past fantasy?

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    • #707357
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Is Public Transport Investment in Ireland Doomed?

      Dublin as of yesterday has two new tram lines, as Ciaran Cuffe has said there is a need to ‘join the dots’ I presume his preferred route is on street from Stephens Green to Nassau St, College Green and Abbey St to link both lines.

      Platform11 ( http://www.platform11.org ) have long advocated the ‘interconnector’ project or underground link from Dublins Docklands to Heuston Station through Pearse Station, Stephens Green LUAS terminus, High St and Guinness brewery as their preferred method of joining a wider number of strings of dots.

      This has culminated in the Extend the Dart campaign ( [url]www.extendthedart.com ) site where it is possible to lobby every public representitive east of the Shannon & Denis Naughton on completion of a short e-postcard.

      The question is as dd-dallas has said is public transport investment in Ireland doomed?

      Will all or any of the above projects be built or will a dual carriageway to waterford and a second M50 style motorway be built instead?

      http://www.platform11.org appears to have vanished are they Cullens first victim?

    • #746794
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Thankfully Platform11 are still online they just seemed to be down lastnight.

      But one fears for their objectives all the same

    • #746795
      asdasd
      Participant

      Cullen may not be all that bad. He was decisive on the Electronic voting, decisive but wrong. If convinced of the interconnector he may bullheadedly push it through.

    • #746796
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Decisive yes,

      But decisive in the of Sean Barratt school of transport economics, i.e. roads, roads and more roads. His first policy speach was directed entirely at regional transport, i.e. giving them a road to Dublin.

      The only hope is that is that the new Junior Minister Callelly is from North Dublin in an area where regional roads have no effect

      But if Cullens tenure in Environment is anthing to go by it will be simply better service for the NRA. To the exclusion of the leinster/Dublin/Other urban commuter.

      I wonder will he attempt to introduce electronic tolling?

    • #746797
      mickeydocs
      Participant

      But decisive in the of Sean Barratt school of transport economics, i.e. roads, roads and more roads. His first policy speach was directed entirely at regional transport, i.e. giving them a road to Dublin.

      It is funny how regional development never involves allowing the regions to participate with each other.
      The lack of a train line and a decent road between Cork/Limerick/Shannon/Galway/Sligo is a disgrace, especially as a western corridor would provide an excellent counterpole to Dublin.

      As for the underground option in Dublin… should the rest of the country really continue to pay for Dublin’s transport network?
      Surely it makes more sense to extend the dart, link up the luas, and increase the number of bus lanes rather than spend billions on the dream of providing Dublin with an underground that it doesn’t need. Manchester and Birmingham are much larger cities and conurbations that survive without an underground.

      Have a look at the conservatives hopes for an underground in Birmingham (the greater Brum area has a population in excess of six million people):
      http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/lifestyle/shopping/latestnews/tm_objectid=14240386&method=full&siteid=50002&headline=brum-to-go-underground–name_page.html
      Surely this will give you an idea as to the insanity of spending up to 2 billion on such a system for Dublin, a conurbation with at most a population of 1.5 million… where is the sense?

    • #746798
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      As for the underground option in Dublin… should the rest of the country really continue to pay for Dublin’s transport network?

      Oh ooh, here we go again. More Dublin bashing.:D
      Anyway, its not Dublins fault that rail in Ireland received little or no funding from the state, which let some lines to close and leaving others lines to fall into a near total mess. It was only until the ‘On Track’ programme in 2000, did the Government start to pump serious money to repair the existing lines and make them safe with a modern signaling system.

      Surely it makes more sense to extend the dart, link up the luas, and increase the number of bus lanes rather than spend billions on the dream of providing Dublin with an underground that it doesn’t need

      Well that exactly was CIE is doing. But guess what. It will cost billions to do that. In fact CIE has quoted รขโ€šยฌ3.6 billion. And its all depends on a ‘underground’ rail line called ‘the interconnector’.

      For detaild info, you should go to
      http://www.extendthedart.com

    • #746799
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Originally posted by mickeydocs

      It is funny how regional development never involves allowing the regions to participate with each other.
      The lack of a train line and a decent road between Cork/Limerick/Shannon/Galway/Sligo is a disgrace, especially as a western corridor would provide an excellent counterpole to Dublin.

      I know exactly what you mean Mickey, the classic example is the new motorway being planned between Cork and Portlaoise, it is following almost to the mile the existing N8 alignment, when as suggested by one prominent An Taisce member that it should follow the rail line to Tipperary and then back to Mitchelstown.

      This would have allowed a 24 mile link from Tipperary to Limerick doubling up as a Dublin & Cork connection to Limerick, and even providing 1/3 of the link between Waterford and Limerick.

      Instead Limerick will have to wait at least a decade as 10kms bypass links with 10kms bypass to have a connection to Dublin.

      No plan exists to Link Cork and Galway by A class road, and I will have a state pension before a rail line links our 2nd, 3rd and 4th cities.

      Originally posted by mickeydocs
      Surely this will give you an idea as to the insanity of spending up to 2 billion on such a system for Dublin, a conurbation with at most a population of 1.5 million… where is the sense?

      The sense is that the orbital motorway has been tried and failed, nothing less than 1.25% of the National budget over a five year period will solve the transport problems of the region that supplies 40%+ of the revenue.

      Gridlock costs Dublin over 2bn per year, that is ignoring the human cost of spending 3 hours per day commuting.

      Cork will receive its Midleton extension and I am sure that increased capacity and greater land use planning on the Mallow line would also be welcomed.

      But beyond who gets what on a Geographical basis, the choices to be made are do the government spend more and more money on dubious road schemes such as the Dublin to Kells motorway & Dublin to Slane Motorway and a second orbital Motorway for Dublin or is a public transport system built in Dublin that actually connects.

      If you want to go from Galway or Cork to Belfast or Dublin Airport, it is currently a multi-modal mess, only an extended and fully linked Dart service can do this.

    • #746800
      shaun
      Participant

      A good rail network is a fine thing and can take a huge burden off the roads at rush-hour etc. but an excellent motorway system is essential to connect and go around the towns.

      The orbital motorway is not a failure, and is not even completed around Dublin yet.

    • #746801
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Shaun,

      I agree that a National Motorway network is necessary to link Dublin with Belfast, Galway and Cork. No-one is disputing this but beyond this there are definite question marks.

      Dublin to Kells will cost in excess of 300m and the contact point at the M50 at Blanchardstown cannot cope with the existing traffic load let alone a vastly expanded car depdent commuter belt that will result. Dublin-Slane ditto.

      The M50 doesn’t function to European norms in terms of efficiency and the 2nd Westlink bridge solved very little.

      The Red Cow has tailbacks much of the day on four of the five roads leading onto it and the Liffey Valley junction is little better.

      The only solution is to give the commuter a real alternative to using the car, most of whom don’t use their car within working hours. The result of these transport patterns are three fold, firstly commuters spend long pe

    • #746802
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Shaun,

      I agree that a National Motorway network is necessary to link Dublin with Belfast, Galway and Cork. No-one is disputing this but beyond this there are definite question marks.

      Dublin to Kells will cost in excess of 300m and the contact point at the M50 at Blanchardstown cannot cope with the existing traffic load let alone a vastly expanded car depdent commuter belt that will result. Dublin-Slane ditto.

      The M50 doesn’t function to European norms in terms of efficiency and the 2nd Westlink bridge solved very little.

      The Red Cow has tailbacks much of the day on four of the five roads leading onto it and the Liffey Valley junction is little better.

      The only solution is to give the commuter a real alternative to using the car, most of whom don’t use their car within working hours. The result of these transport patterns are three fold, firstly commuters spend long periods commuting, secondly those that require their cars during working hours such as architects and sales reps are stuck in unecessary traffic. Thirdly the country imports more petrolium products than are necessary on a comparitive basis with the Benelux and other Northern European states.

      An investment in an underground and the other elements of the Dublin Rail plan would unlock significant land banks for sustainable development.

      Known sites/ schemes that the plan would significantly assist in terms of development.

      Both Schemes beside Heuston Station
      Site at Carnlough Road
      Clancy Barracks
      The IE engineering works at Inchicore.
      Parkwest
      Cherry Orchard
      Adamstown
      Newcastle Co Dublin
      Sallins
      Naas with a bus link
      Kildare Town

      The reality is that Central Dublin is a medieval City and that no matter how many roads are built on the periphery bottlenecks will always result once the canals are encountered if not before.

      Try Pearse St or Morehampton Rd at 5pm

    • #746803
      mickeydocs
      Participant

      Some European commenators have remarked that the second world war provided one great service to Europe in that it destroyed the medieval cities allowing for the great countries of Europe to remodel their cities completely ๐Ÿ™‚

    • #746804
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Originally posted by mickeydocs
      Some European commenators have remarked that the second world war provided one great service to Europe in that it destroyed the medieval cities allowing for the great countries of Europe to remodel their cities completely ๐Ÿ™‚

      Hmmmm,

      I’d hardly call the death of 45 Million people ‘one great service’ but possibly a very tragic accident.

      One of the most bombed out cities was Frankfurt; interestingly over 50% of their commuters move by metro and all Autobahns stop at the edge of the CBD.

      Gridlock is not a phrase they really understand, they went under the remanants of their medieval city with two metro lines. Their airport has the highest percentage of rail users and one of the clearest flowing road networks in Europe as a result.

    • #746805
      Paul Clerkin
      Keymaster

      Originally posted by mickeydocs
      Some European commenators have remarked that the second world war provided one great service to Europe in that it destroyed the medieval cities allowing for the great countries of Europe to remodel their cities completely ๐Ÿ™‚

      A lot of european cities completely rebuilt the medieval core and still manage to have transit systems above and below ground…

      Nuremberg in 1945
      http://germany.archiseek.com/bavaria/nuremberg/ww2.html

      Nuremberg today
      http://germany.archiseek.com/bavaria/nuremberg/index.html

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