Irishtown

great map Gunter.

My street has been a street for 160 years!!! Explains the subsidence in the kitchen 🙂 Also it’s funny that londonbridge was seemingly always significantly narrower than the road and Bath Avenue, even where the physical potential to widen was there. Now it’s a right pain in the arse as there’s traffic lights that are wholly indepndent of traffic flows in either direction – interesting how the primary road network was substantially laid down at that stage but the railway, if i’m correct, is drawn like a road in places – ie the level crossing at Lansdowne road looks like a junction (caused me some confusion until i saw the bridge over Bath Avenue)

I wonder what became of the distillery and we can see some of those pesky overmature trees of the Trinity College Botanic Gardens which are to be undergo compassionate euthanasia from Sean Dunne in Ballsbridge. We can also see the eastern end of the grid layout which persists to this day around Grand canal Docks as well as the split in Ringsend Road at the library – the block and t-junction replaced by a one way slip and a sweeping curve which is dodgy at best on a flying bike on a wet morning like today. Also interesting that the coast road is interrupted where that Stationery shop is today giving Mountain View a nice view of Howth Head and Seafield, well a field/garden leading to the sea.

If I was around then I’d say in quite visionary tones that this area needs a dog track, a 50,000 all seater football stadium and a 37 storey tower block. 😉 There woulda been shag all objections from locals

Gunter do you have any info on a street in Ringsend called Shamrock Avenue. I don’t think it’s there today and it was in a house here where Shamrock Rovers was formed. It was possibly where the flats are now – Stella gardens

from the club site
“The club was formed in 1901 in the city of Dublin in an area where the districts of Ringsend and Irishtown meet. The very first meeting took place at number four Irishtown Road but it wasn’t until the second meeting was held around the corner in Shamrock Avenue that the name Shamrock Rovers was decided upon.”

You could look at that map for hours and as it’s past midnight on a school night I think i’ll retire… Post Quick Reply my eye!

@alonso wrote:

do you have any info on a street in Ringsend called Shamrock Avenue. I don’t think it’s there today and it was in a house here where Shamrock Rovers was formed. It was possibly where the flats are now – Stella gardens

I think you’re right there alonso, there’s a street on the 1887 map that runs up from Irishtown Road to the Dodder, where Stella Gardens are now, it’s called something ‘Avenue’, I’m missing that bit of the map.

I thought that it was Shelbourne who were associated with Irishtown! Didn’t they play at the old Irishtown Stadium?

I know Paul Cleary of the ‘The Blades’ was a useful footballer until he went off with his brother Lar to found the best Dublin band of the 80s. They lived at 33 Bath Street before they moved down market (gedit) to Ringsend. You don’t see those lads thrashing any (protected structure) hotels.

@tommyt wrote:

How terribly common – I would hazard a pretty strong guess that SRFC were founded on the doorstep of some gaff on that road,but actually having a home:confused:

The lack of panache was there from the start unlike the illustrious Bohemian Football Club, founded in the gatekeepers lodge of the Phoenix Park 11 years previous:p

🙂 What’s that old derisory tv punditry saying tommyt?

“You’d see better football on a Sunday mornin on the 15 acres!”

Now I know the true origin of the saying. (Last night’s result aside:confused:)
🙁

Don’t know if I would agree that Clondalkin Garda station is superior to Irishtown. Your one looks like an office block, ours looks like an arthouse cinema. Getting nicked in Irishtown will be like going to the pictures.

Here’s a few more pics of good vernacular houses in Irishtown that together with the endangered ones at 11 & 13 Bath Street, constitute, with the street patterns, the real essence of the place.

The view south down Bath Street with the former post office on the corner on the left and the interesting three storey (possibly gabled) house behind it facing down the street now confronted by that new terrace with the bulging, nearly blank, gable wall onto the Bath Street.

Further down Bath Street at the point where the frontage turns in slightly (suggestive of a widening to create some sort of earlier market space). I can distinctly remember the day that one of these two fine brick houses got it’s fake stone facing to look as smart as it’s neighbour. To get a good key, the ‘builder’ scored the brickwork with a Kango hammer in great diagonal scars. I don’t think that would ever happen today. Today they would just knock the houses down as ‘uneconomical to renovate’.

A nice pair at the widest part of the Bath Street set-back. Front doors separated by just the width of the party wall can be an early 18th century feature, but everything else looks early 19th century.

A very interesting 5 bay at the top of Pembroke Street with very small first floor window dimensions and altered ground floor windows (possibly lost shopfronts).

The door of the Pembroke Street 5 bay (can’t decide if it’s stone of stucco) and the fine 18th century door case to no. 35 Bath Street.

The Pembroke Street 5 Bay is attached to this. I think this pub used to be called Seapoint House and beneath all the accretions are probably the remains of the 18th / 19th century frontage that appears on the 1849 map and which signalled the entry point to the village from the Ringsend direction. I can’t find any old photographs of Seapoint House, but I have a very dim recollection of a low two storey stucco facade with a lot of windows at odd spacings.

Gunter: re the fyfestone facing and the mani(a)c hammerman builder; I’ve noticed in trips to Amsterdam that many of the old brick facades are actually painted (usually in a very dark grey/brown or even black), so if you are prepared to accept a bit of touching-up (if you know what I mean), even destroyed facades can be rescued to some extent. Assuming you get the fyfestone off, of course (which begs the question of why it was ever done in the first place).

@johnglas wrote:

re the fyfestone facing and the mani(a)c hammerman builder;

Fyfestone johnglas? that stuff has a name!

My memory of these houses was that their original brickwork had always been heavily over-painted in thick gloss paint and my hope would be that the Kango hammer scoring was blunted by the paint layers. Having said that, I do remember shards of brick flying across the street.

In an ideal world, special places like Irishtown would benefit from the attention and expertise of a dedicated team in the City council who would advise property owners and potential developers on how best to address issues like this and also nip proposals like the one for 11 / 13 Bath Street in the bud.

@ctesiphon wrote:

would you say Irishtown ends at the junction of Londonbridge Road and Tritonville Avenue? One of my favourite buildings in the area is the old farmhouse just south of that junction, on the western side of the road. It’s the bright orange one set back from the road.

Tritonville Road is 100% Sandymount, you would set off coronary alerts if you even mentioned the word Irishtown.

If you mean the bright orange (brick) house, ctesiphon, I’m pretty sure it’s just 1930s. In contrast to the granite heads over the window opes, there’s a long, slightly saggy, concrete head over the garage, but otherwise there’s nothing to indicate that the garage isn’t original, so definitely 1930s, I would say. BTW, there’s nothing here on the 1849 map. They were really nice people in that house, they used to give us a lift to school on really wet days, nice old Jaguar, if I recall.

The old Post Office, ‘might suit builder for townhouse development’! This is another reason why the right decision on 11 / 13 Bath Street is so important.

How did they get away with knocking that Presbyterian church? it was a perfect little train-set church. One of the last ‘Dry Rot’ demolitions, if I recall. Brian Ridout would have humiliated them in an oral hearing.

More grim news on the Irishtown front, the demolition of 11 & 13 Bath Street has gone for Additional Information as well.

What’s that song from Oklahoma?

One crumb of comfort, under the heading ‘Principle of Demolition’, the planner’s report states:

The applicant has submitted a Condition Report illustrating the current poor condition of both houses to demonstrate that demolition of these houses is justified. It is considered that whilst the applicant states structural reasons for the demolition of these two buildings the need for a further investigation in the historical background of these buildings would better inform the Planning Authorities assessment of the proposal’.

Well I did say a crumb of comfort.

The problem with this application is that there is now no safety net. There were no objections in the five weeks so there can be no third party appeal. A decision by DCC to permit this demolition would be the final decision.

Since I had to dig out Brooking’s map for the other thread, here’s a poor quality copy of the top left corner of his ‘Prospect of the City of Dublin from the North’, showing the village of Ringsend at the end of the quay wall, with Irishtown just beyond it, clustered around the distinctive square tower of St. Mathew’s church.

It might be very vague in detail, but the extent to which the village was developed, by 1728, is unmistakable.

@ctesiphon wrote:

Tritonville Road, btw, must be one of the very few roads in the whole city that is not a complete strip- it’s ‘broken’ at the junction where the old Presbyterian church stood.

Yes, that little stretch between the former church and the garda station really feels more like Sandymount Road. I’ve been told that the house on the bend – at the ‘break’ – was formerly the coastguard’s house, which (if true) shows how much land has been reclaimed over the years.

Gunter: is it true that ships/boats used to tie up at the back of the church in Irishtown? I’ve also been told that there’s a ring for this purpose built into the wall of the church, though I’ve never seen it.

Ctesiphon: perhaps ‘broken’ streets/roads could be worthy of its own thread.:) Would you consider Pembroke Road to be ‘broken’?

On 11 – 13 Bath Street, (Reg. no. 3285/08) the Additional Information went back in on 17 Dec.

The proposal is to demolish these two houses and basically build two replacement houses in a broadly similar style.

The planning application attracted no objections, at the time, but the fact that the site is located in the centre of the village of Irishtown, the existing houses are covered by a ‘Conservation Area’ zoning, and that the houses appear to incorporate early features, it seemed reasonable to question the appropriateness of the development.

Probably entirely by chance, Additional Information was sought by the Planners, on two counts:

Leaving the back window issue aside, that historical context and building ”Assessment Report” has now been submitted, (or at least that’s what it says on the cover page)!

I want to say at the out-set that I do understand the importance of not getting too stressed . . . . but come on:

The report goes on to suggest that, as the proposed replacement houses have ”a front elevation replicating the existing, so that there would be no change on the street frontage and general appearance”, (not actually true), what’s the problem basically.

No more than our learned friend, (a Grade 1, Conservation Architect, with offices on one of our better Georgian streets), I don’t claim to know the construction date of these two houses, but I think we can rule out the 20th century, despite the evidence of all the 1960s tiled fireplaces noted in the report, and apart from the chimney stacks and probably the in-fill rear extensions, I’d be inclined to rule out the 19th century also, which leaves us with the 18th century!

The report records that the exterior is cement rendered, but it doesn’t point out that red brickwork, over a rough stone plinth, clearly peeps through the render in a couple of places, or that the low ceiling heights are indicative of an early date, rather than necessarily indicative of mean structures for the lower orders.

The floor plans submitted by the applicants with the ground floor above and the first floor below. I’ve put a red line around what I think is the outline of the original construction.

Together, the two houses present a rare, unified, seven bay, frontage to the street and the clear suggestion from the plans is that the original arrangement was, while just one room deep (with stairwell returns projecting out from the original rear wall), prestigious in the context of the village of Irishtown. I also wouldn’t rule out the distinct possibility (not addressed in the assessment report) that these houses originally had another floor, or an attic storey, based on the suggestion from the external appearance that the stairwells rose to at least another half landing over first floor level, as noted before.

The question I would ask is: What is the evidence that 11 & 13 Bath Street are not the oldest houses in Irishtown?

What is the bloody point of having a desigination ”Conservation Area”?
What’s it supposed to mean?

Why do they even bother colouring up the maps to give a zoning objective of ”Residential Conservation” (Z2), to particular structures and not others, if you can just come along and get planning permission to knock the structures down after you’ve let them get a bit delapidated for a couple of years?

What’s the bloody point of looking for a ”full historical assessment of the structures . . to include . . an architectural history of the application site and details of the context in which the site was developed”, if, when it comes in, and it’s clearly as lame as a three legged dog, it still gets accepted as if it was a thesis from UNESCO?

Ten days before the deadline, the Planning Dept. have gone ahead and granted permission for the demolition of 11 & 13 Bath Street !

The case officer was originally Emma Deane and now it’s given as Pat Ewen.

This is bitterly disappointing. Pat Ewen is normally a safe pair of hands, he’s a well respected planning officer, and, unusually for a planning official, he seems to have remained in the same role (and mostly the same area) for about twenty years. What seems to have happened here is that he’s just trusted in what the A.I. requested Historical Assessment Report told him:

If we exonorate the planning officer, then the vilian has to be the experienced professional who wrote that ”Historical Assessment Report”! IMO, this individual has serious questions to answer, as do the RIAI who appear to have bestowed a ”Conservation, Grade 1” qualification on him.

The point here is that places like Irishtown which have what, six hundred years of heritage behind them, have inherent qualities that make them special and worthy of lavishing all those high sounding Development Plan phrases on them in the first place, phrases like: ‘Protected Structure’ and ‘Architectural Conservation’ and ‘Zone of Archaeological Interest’.

Dublin City Council’s current zoning map! (horizontal red hatching is ”Conservation area”, Deeper yellow is Z2, ”Residential Conservation”, and the broken heavy blue line is ”Zone of Archaeological Interest”

Some of these inherent qualities, like the early street patterns, can survive a certain amount of site clearance and new build, if it’s done well, and some of the inherent qualities just depend on there being surviving building stock remaining to illustrate the historic depth in the urban fabric and to delight with their patina and their period details, as GrahamH might say.

Aerial view of Irishtown from the west with Bath Street running from left to right, forming the spine of the village.

In nos. 11 & 13 Bath Street, we’re clearly dealing with two of the oldest houses in Irishtown, houses which display fascinating and unusual plan features, and houses that, even the woefully lazy and inadequate ”Historic Assessment Report” concedes, haven’t yet revealed all their secrets.

In any civilized country, these would be the last houses that you would ever permit to be demolished, especially to be replaced by an insipid half mock-up of themselves.

Which ever way you look at it, either we need a better planning system, or we need a higher standard of Building Assessment Report, or preferably both.

@nneligan wrote:

The new police station is a disaster, I was very sorry to see the Arts & Crafts building go. .

This seems a bit trivial now, but I think the pictures posted earlier in the thread show the new Garda Station to be a pretty decent building. Opinions differ I guess.