Irishtown
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Irishtown is one of those districts, like Kilmainham or Oxmanstown, that started out as distinct villages or towns outside Dublin and then later, because of their proximity to the city, became absorbed into the general urban fabric as the city expanded around them. The intrinsic character of these places can be hard to define and even harder to protect, but future generations are not going to be impressed if we don’t make some effort.
Apart from some weakness with some of the edges, on Church Avenue and at the approach from Ringsend, the village of Irishtown is still quite well defined with four parallel north/south streets, Irishtown Road, Bath Street, Pembroke Street and Strand Street crossed by a series of lanes and side streets. There is a strong indication that the centre of the village was marked by a small tringular ‘civic’ or market space formed by seting back the eastern frontage of the middle bit of Bath Street at the intersection of Herbert Pl. and Barrack Lane. Much of this space (if it actually existed) was subsequently built over and recently built over again.
Even if the market space (we’ll call it) is no longer legible, the continued importance of the space is that it is highly probable that all the higher status houses in the village would have been built around it and consequently the structures that we’re looking at today and which may not look especially impressive, may be more interesting under the surface.
In this context, a planning application was lodged last month to demolish two of these house, 11 & 13 Bath Street and replace them with something similar, because they’re ‘ . . beyond economic refurbishment’.
Mid 20th century O.S. map of Irishtown with the site of 11 & 13 outlined in red and the probable original outline of the ‘Market space’ dotted in blue.
nos. 11 & 13 Bath Street.
N. 13 Bath Street.
Rear of no. 11 showing stairwell return with, apparently, an attic storey flight. Architect’s survey plans (Ground Floor above and First Floor below)
Herbert Place looking towards Bath Street (at the top of the possible original ‘Market space’
5,7 & 9 Bath Street, tall two and three storey structures.
no. 22 Bath Street with attic storey gable window onto Herbert Place at the top of the ‘Market space’.I don’t know the story of these two houses, but I believe there is more to them than meets the eye. For a start the buildings were originally red brick over a stone plinth and they appear to have had flush window frames. The internal arrangement, as recorded in the architect’s survey drawings, is intriguing with corner fireplaces showing up all over the place, a strange interlocking of the two houses and stairwells that seem to want to go up to a third storey ( gabled? ) which is no longer there. The pub on the adjoining site at 7-9 Bath St is a three storey Victorian gabled structure which could well incorporate bits of earlier structures in it’s fabric and the house at no. 22 opposite has a hipped gable (masked Billy?) that would have closed the vista at the top of the market space.
We’ve missed the deadline for commenting on this application, so it’s down to the Planning Office to use their judgement and the provisions of the ‘Residential Conservation Area’ zoning to deal with this. The applicants are two well respected local publicans who’s family have been pillars of the Irishtown community for ever. The architect is Conservation Grade III acredited! All we’re missing is a deeper understanding of how valuable these two houses may be.
As an aside, the little shop was run by a lovely old man called Larry Skinner and many Fruit Pastiles were purchased in his tiny emporium.
Great post gunter and thanks for the insight. I’ve been surprised over the years that the pace of regeneration/gentrification ,call it what you will, hasn’t consumed the working class areas of D4. Have always attributed it to De flats in the neighbourhood ( which I have heard the reidents are queing up to buy out and cash in on when the corpo eventually agree on their sale to the tenants) and what I have always known as ‘legoland’- i.e. the 1980s 3 storey coprpo houses that dominate the environs.. As a general aside I think the fabric of Dublin’s urban villages survives to an extent unappreciated by most Dubliners-they just require a bit of TLC. My favourite gem that requires a bit of polishing being Coolock village. I’ sure more design conscious posters n here will disagree with this generalisation – I really mean it in an atmosphere concept…
@tommyt wrote:
As a general aside I think the fabric of Dublin’s urban villages survives to an extent unappreciated by most Dubliners-they just require a bit of TLC.
I have a vague recollection that ‘seeing Dublin as a network of Urban Villages’ was the title of an essay by none other than Dick Gleeson (he who is now top of the tree in the Planning Dept) as an entry in an essay competition on the theme of ‘How would you Define Dublin’, maybe around the time of the Dublin Millenium (1988?), sponcered by Dublin Corporation, or The Evening Hearald or somebody.
My memory could be faulty on this, but I think the bold Dick got second place.
The contents of that essay could make interesting reading (at an oral hearing)!
Apart from the man himself, presuming he’s not a reader of these pages, who would be able to put their hands on a copy of something like that?
Just on tomyt’s reference to ‘Legoland’, (which is what everyone called it). The scheme was a Dublin Corporation social housing development (I don’t know was it designed in-house or not) and it got some stick at the time which focused on the painted render finish and the colour scheme, hence the nickname. There were other reasons two; people had to get used to three storey house types and there was some grumbling about not being able to get furniture up the stairs, as there was with the Pearse Street scheme from about the same time (I think early ’80s is about right).
Some of the furniture accusations would have been better directed at Bargaintown and Flynns etc who’s furniture made up, in chipboard and velour, what they lacked in ergonomic design. There were other issues as well, such as the fact that the scheme was erected on a land-fill dump and I remember one newspaper story of a family having to throw all their windows open in mid winter because there was some underground combustion process taking place and the heat was coming up through the floor slab.
Leaving all of that aside, the scheme was rather well designed, in an unpretentous way, with good variety in the house types and a reasonable attempt at layout. It also had some good street names like Bremen Road although there might be a couple of Pine Groves too. After a shaky start, it all seems to have bedded in very well, as I think these photographs show. The corner shop never worked, for some reason, it always had a shutter half down.
It would be interesting to compare ‘Legoland’ with what would be done today. Densification targets will probably never allow housing schemes like this again.
Most interesting buildings earlier there, gunter.
Yes, Legoland is a scheme that’s survived very well. Interestingly it’s kept its coherence precisely because people were given the opportunity – even required – to express individuality. Perhaps that’s the only way to keep matters orderly in an Irish residential context – deliberately design in disorder…
Like picking out the Georgian on one of the squares you’d most like to live in, I always liked the dark green one near the main road. Probably lemon now.
good photos Gunter and yes I vaguely remember similar stories of landfill/methane gas related incidents from 2 acquaintances who grew up around there (who rather charmingly refer to themselves as eastsiders!). The newer development at the Pigeonhouse roundabout got quite a bit of media attention a while back for being the first proper grass roots housing coop development in the state but I’m sure you’re wide to th.at already An interesting area for sure and one that will see many changes as the DDDA start their foray into speculative development-mmm all that open space, sure they will pile ’em high on the glass bottles site …
As a near local, I’m delighted to see the area get this much attention in our own little media. Another important element of Irishtown is the triad of boozers – The Beach, Clarkes, Gleeson/Vintage inn. the latter two’s back doors seperated by one of the laneways mentioned earlier. From what I can gather, Gleesons is the GS Station in the OS Map, Clarke’s is no 82, and the Beach is photographed and identified by Gunter. Also there;s a brand new Garda Station almost complete on the conrner of Bath avenue and Irishtown/Tritonville.
As for Legoland, there’s a Jenny’s hair Salon on the periphery of the estate which I;ve never seen open but the corner shop opposite the IGB seems to be. Funny thing about Irishtown has always been it’s lack of a real sense of place – IGB and Legoland are both Ringsend, where I live is Sandymount and is even the Garda station Ringsend?
Other notable but useless facts are the connections to soccer. Lawless’ newsagents on Irishtown road is owned by the legendary Gino Lawless of Bohs fame and Ireland’s greatests club Shamrock Rovers were born on a street called Shamrock Avenue which is somewhere in the vicinity of Irishtown but seems to have disappeared
Legoland in Ringsend was designed by Burke-Kennedy Doyle + Partners and received a commendation from the RIAI in the Silver Medal for Housing awarded for the period 1982-84. I think I heard that Ruairi Quinn played a large part in its design while he was still at BKD.
I’d heard that too, trace. Was it mentioned in that Nation Building tv series, maybe?
The other story I heard about the estate was that, at the time houses were being allocated, those on the waiting list with physical disabilities were given priority (odd, given the three storey arrangement, come to think of it). However, once they’d received the houses, some people who had previously been disabled suddenly ‘lost’ their disability (if they ever had one…), hence the estate’s nickname of ‘Lourdes’. 😀
I hadn’t heard of the Ruairi Quinn involvement, I guess when you’re out of the loop, you’re out of the loop.
I’m surprised that, as a local resident and TD, he wouldn’t have been flogging it at election time.
I don’t want to find out now that there are politicians of modesty and principle.Coming back for a minute to that planning application to demolish 11 – 13 Bath Street (Reg. no. 3285/08, lodged 19th June) I just want to make the point that the proposal looks innocuous (two storey, none of the usual over-development) but it still has to be stopped. These are two of the oldest house on the street (whether further research would reveal original attic stories or not) and if you demolish them and replace them with a pale immitation, no amount of hanging baskets are going to get your character back.
Architect’s drawings of the proposed replacement two houses.You just have to look across the street to see how a seemingly innocuous development can critically damage the character of a place. This little terrace was built about seven or eight years ago, partially on the site of a blocky 1930s house, which itself had been built with little concern for context. The new terrace repeats the mistake of it’s predecessor by presenting a rough rear aspect and blank gable wall to Bath Street, at the top of the phantom triangular ‘market space’. Presumably they did this because little houses facing Herbert Place were more marketable than a fewer number of taller houses facing Bath Street.
The planning officer appears to be Emma Deane again, she must be the only one in the building not on annual leave!
Disturbingly, from what I can see of her record, she’s inclined to see good in everybody. I think Ms. Deane is goin’ to have to get in touch with her inner bitch and start refusing some of this stuff.
my nana which is dead now was raised up by her mam and dad my great nana and grandad in no 11 bath street beside barrack lane with her brothers and sisters by the surname of QUIGLEY
and im wondering if i could get some pictures of inside that house before it is knocked down
@brady wrote:
im wondering if i could get some pictures of inside that house before it is knocked down
According to the architects, ‘. . . the timber has rotted to such an extent that it was not safe to walk on some of the floors, particularly at first floor level’ !
Personally, I’d be inclined to trust the floor boards more than the report.
The Building Condition Report also states (as justification for the proposed demolition) ‘The houses are located in an area which has poor underground bearing conditions. Normal strip foundations are not suitable in this area.’
This is the old Sandymount myth, cut and pasted, to justify a demolition in Irishtown. 11 & 13 Bath Street are located at probably the highest point in a significant little rise in the local landscape. By rights, the soil bearing conditions here should be the best for miles around. This site was in the very centre of the village, from the 17th century on, the location would have been chozen as the most suitable to build on.
This site is zoned ‘To protect and/or improve the amenities of residential conservation areas’. These houses are certainly among the oldest on the street, at least 18th century, and no ananysis has been offered to explain their age or origins, no analysis of their unusual plan form, no analysis of the unusual building form to the rear, particularly of no. 11, just a bunch of guff about cracks that look anything but life threatening.
Maybe this isn’t in the Georgian Core and it’s a bit off the beaten track, but these things still matter hugely at a local level. The fact that no one has objected to the development (inside the five weeks) should not be interpreted as informed consent. We’re entitled to believe that one of the filters in the planning process is some kind of professional assessment at a deeper heritage conservation level and that proposals, which may look innocuous to the man in the street, become subjected to some more rigorous scrutiny during this planning process.
I know this is the sleepy season, but if there was rigorous scrutiny here, there’s no way these houses would be knocked.
Legoland has just welcomed 2 new unruly neighbours. A family of Decauxs has just moved into Sean Moore Road. May have pics on Friday for the other thread
@alonso wrote:
Also there;s a brand new Garda Station almost complete on the conrner of Bath avenue and Irishtown/Tritonville.
Funny thing about Irishtown has always been it’s lack of a real sense of place – IGB and Legoland are both Ringsend, where I live is Sandymount
I meant to respond to this earlier.
That new Garda station certainly makes a statement. (not sure what the statement is). They might have slightly overdone the corner window thing, but it’s not pompous and it is really carefully detailed.
I couldn’t agree more with alonso’s second statement. I lived for years in a house that was patently in Irishtown, but the owners insisted on calling it Sandymount.
Here are a couple of pics of the cross laneways and side streets that are such a part of Irishtown’s character.
I’m not against hanging baskets.
ah Rory it’s not bad really. I go past here every day and it looks worse in the pic than it really is. I’ll get some more pics soon enough
Is the old (Arts & Crafts-y?) Garda Station gone? Or is it hidden behind the new one?
@ctesiphon wrote:
Is the old (Arts & Crafts-y?) Garda Station gone? Or is it hidden behind the new one?
Gone, I’m afraid. It was converted to a Garda station in the 1970s, it was originally the Rectory for St. Mathew’s C of I church across the road. The original police station (DMP barracks?), the one alonso pointed out had the distinction of being hemed in by three pubs, is still there at the corner of Barrack Lane.
On the positive side, the tower of St. Mathew’s has just undergone an excellent renovation, re-pointing the stonework with lime mortar. The contrast between the lime pointing and the remaining areas of cement pointing below, is striking.
I came across some photographs of Irishtown from about 1990. Not a whole lot has changed, maybe a few more trees have grown in the meantime, but one structure that’s gone missing is the old R.C. chapel. The chapel was a small red brick rectangular structure tucked in behind Pembroke Street near Chapel Avenue (appropriately enough). It was slightly out of square with the later Victorian terraced houses around it and probably fell out of use about the time that Ringsend and Sandymount got grand new granite churches in the mid 19th century.
The little R.C. chapel is just visible in the gap between the corner buildings on Pembroke Street.
A slightly better view of the chapel which was just used as a shed in recent times. I don’t think this one would have made it into Praxiteles’ top ten, but it would have had local historical value and tiny little ( pre-catholic emancipation? ) chapels wouldn’t be all that common.The newsagents and Dodder Terrace behind
Next Door, St Mathews National School, current use unknown, office?
from right to left
Clarkes, Barrack Lane and rear of Beach Pub, back entrance to Gleesons out of shot, oul one being clever waiting on the wrong side of the road for the bus so she’ll see it before the others
Bus has come, front of Gleesons/Vintage Inn
A few shots of the new Garda Station, as opposed to a few shots AT the Garda station as evidenced in the 2nd photo
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