Irish say no to PVC windows
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@Graham Hickey wrote:
Would you not want to conserve the original glass cobalt?
Yes I would, if that’s what it is, and it’s possible. But many of the panes are cracked or broken. The house has been horribly neglected. I’m not sure whether some of the intact panes are original… they look very uniform (to my untutored eye, and through all the dirt and masking tape!). If I got somebody like Bolger’s out, would they be able to tell me what’s original glass & what’s not? Or is there any easy way of telling?
Don’t worry – heavy curtains are on the way as an initial measure! But I won’t be sitting in a darkened room like Miss Havisham during the day! And unfortunately I’ve no south facing windows – house is East (front) – West (back).
As regards individually thermostat controlled rooms, that would be ideal, and a long term plan. But my budget won’t stretch that far at the moment. One step at a time…
WINDOW REPLACEMENT – SOMETIMES THINGS JUST GO FROM BAD TO WORSE:
Nos. 46 and 47 Harrington Street in 2003, both with ’70s-type aluminium windows.
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Both of these buildings are Protected Structures. A planning application was lodged in ’03 for No. 46 (Ref. 2867/03) for various changes including reinstatement of sash windows. Good. Except the new windows are clumsy double-glazed copies of Georgian sashes (see below). Bad quality copies of sash windows really annoy me, because, at least if there are clearly innapropriate windows in a building, there is a impetus to replace them, but bad sashes are not likely to be with replaced with ‘historically correct’ ones easily, are they?Then, in summer of last year, a load of work was carried out on No. 47 without planning permission, including the replacement of the aluminium windows with PVC Georgian windows. They must have known it was a good time to do unauthorised work, because I made a complaint at the time, but the enforcement officer who normally deals with the area was away and there was nobody else available to make an inspection! And a year later, the PVC is still there…
The unauthorised work also included a quite well-executed rusticated blockwork effect in render on the ground floor, to match the building next door. But why would you go and do that and then put plastic Georgian windows in the building? :confused:
Nos. 46 and 47 Harrington Street in 2005, with bad quality sash windows to 46, and PVC Georgian windows to 47.
General view (the two buildings are semi-obscured behind the tree on the left).
Look at these awful glazing bars – they bear no resemblance to a Georgian glazing bar – putty on the outside; slender moulding on the inside (Cobalt, although your windows are Victorian, this in the kind of thing to watch out for if you are having new windows made – be sure whoever is making them makes an accurate copy of the existing ones, if they are too far gone). And the common mistake of using an ogee (Victorian) sash horn on a Georgian window.
Indeed – though worse I think is the chunky modern mouldings, especially if they stand proud of the glazing bar itself as in this case.
I can vouch for how horrible those PVCs look in number 47 having looked on in horror seeing them for the first time a few months ago not having been in the area for a while. What made it so bad until right now was that it wasn’t clear if they replaced original sashes as I couldn’t remember! I’ve been searching for an older photo since!
So at least your pictures Devin are something of a ‘relief’, though clearly not in relation to the clumsy repros, nor the PVCs that have gone in, regardless of what was there before.Glad to hear an official complaint has been made.
Just on the idea of the reinsertion of sashes in the No 47 yellow house, even if done correctly which design would you go for? Given the pane formation of the aluminiums, it is highly likely this house had two-over-twos installed in the early 1860s. So which would you put back in upon replacement: c1820s Georgians, or Victorian two-over-twos?
The ’03 photos are from the planning file mentioned above (being a prescribed body has its perks!).
Good to know somebody else is noticing these things (I’m not the psychopath I thought I was!!!).
It wouldn’t bother me greatly whether it was 2-over-2s or another pane-pattern that was reinserted in No. 47, as the terrace has no great unity any more; – the existing ‘proper’ windows and the ground floor treatments of the buildings vary. But I wouldn’t complain if accurate copies of the original 6-over-6s were put in, which survive next door at 48 and also in Brady’s Pharmacy on the corner (but with glazing bars removed).
How can you tell a window has only had its glazing bars removed? I’ve always just gone on the lack of horns on what are otherwise modern Victorian sheet windows. Is there any other way of knowing – unusually slender sash frames holding sheet windows can give a clue at times…
Yeah, that’s it – you just get to know the general appearance of them (after lookin’ at so many feckin windows!). Another way of telling is if you’re inside the building, you can usually see the scars of where the glazing bars were removed (filled with the Victorian eqivalent of polyfilla!), or you might be able to see from the outside if it’s a ground floor window.
The light is crap in these photos (below) of the 1st floor windows of No. 49 (left) and Brady’s on the corner (right, slightly blurry), but you can see that it’s the same window with the glazing bars removed on the right.
Only removing the glazing bars to get the new larger panes of glass rather than replacing the whole window was a very ‘make and do’ thing to do, wasn’t it? 🙂
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Here’s another example of bad Georgian sash window replacement; I was passing Windsor Terrace on the Grand Canal a while ago and took a picture of this beautiful early 19th century sash window with old glass rippling in the light (top). Lo and behold, next time I passed the old windows had been replaced with these copies (above) making all the usual mistakes: crude fat glazing bars, pieces of wood used to hold the glass in instead of putty (which you can see are coming off at the bottom of the top sash), and non-Georgian ogee sash horns.
So you have the double whammy of loss of irreplaceable original fabric, and bad quality replacement 🙁 .The building is on the corner on the right, below.
This is a small courtyard housing scheme off Marrowbone Lane, Dublin 8 (above & below). It appears to be architect-designed and built in the mid or late ’90s. The houses had painted timber windows and doors originally, with a circular window in the door. But most of them have now been replaced in PVC. You can see the last one or two remaining examples in the pictures.
Should there be any planning control in situations like these over window and door replacement?
At the risk of inviting ill-informed opinion from the anti-conservation brigade, I think there’s an argument for ‘protecting’ new builds, whether in the form of a ‘closure’ rule whereby no changes can be made for, say, 10 or 20 years, or in the form of providing a selection of options (designed by the original architect) from which owners can choose their replacements. In the latter case, personalisation – an critical right for the image-conscious society in which we live, where many now see their exteriors as reflective of their interiors (both architecturally and personally- jeez, I’m sounding awfully like Richard Sennett now!) – would be facilitated within design parameters, while an element of overall design cohesion would be retained.
I’ve always had a hard time understanding why people buy houses they don’t like and then spend big sums remaking them in their own image, even when choice was more of a feature than it now is in today’s ‘wherever I can afford’ culture. Is it location and, by extension, status? The price of former local authority houses in Dalkey would tell you as much, as would the existence of Dublin 6W, as would the recent argument about the apartments in Swords/Malahide. But I digress…
Ultimately, this argument comes down to a) aesthetics, as there is no environmental reason on earth why someone would use pvc over timber, and b) a discussion on where we draw the line between the right of an owner to private property and the right of the general public to an inoffensive public realm (i.e. the duty of an owner towards their neighbours). But this is Ireland, and me feinism will usually win the day.Indeed. It is so frustrating to see this happen in too many places. In the Sunday Times recently there was a letter published with someone looking for advice on the purpose of a 99 year lease a developer was utilising as part of the sale of houses in his estate – I was bowled over that any developer in Ireland even considered using such a device anymore!
It’s a tool that really ought to be used as standard; too often developers are just throwing up estates, flogging the houses for a quick buck and legging it. To hell with how the place will look in 10 or 20 years time – windows, doors, boundary walls, gate piers and extensions can be added or altered at will, with no consideration for a cohesive whole.
Indeed I’ve been watching a housing estate near me going up over the past three years, and even as it is being constructed people are choosing to install white PVC in what is an otherwise exclusively brown windowed and ‘faciaed’ development.Also the most farcical, most ridiculously overscaled, most cumbersome porch extensions and roofs are being added onto the 3yr old houses in the first phase – again with much of the estate not even finished! And as horrible as it is, the standard developer sunny yellow is already being replaced on some houses (all semi-ds) with magnolia or cream! The most pointless slightest varitation in colour, but just enough to upset the whole cart, and of course just enough to stamp clearly ‘this is my patch’ :rolleyes:
If we cannot even design our residential buildings properly in this country, the very least we can do is insist that a coherent and ordered look be maintained.
I remember when the ‘Balgaddy A’ architect-designed residential scheme in Clondalkin was completed there was a feature on it in the paper – http://www.irish-architecture.com/news/2004/000066.html – and its architect, Sean Harrington, said it would “break his heart†if people started putting PVC windows in the houses. I wonder if this has happened yet?
Now for some more window replacement depression – suburban house steel windows replaced by PVC (all Dublin) :
Harold’s Cross Road.
Larkfield Gardens, KCR.
Vergemount Park, Milltown.
Steel is a big problem – does anyone know of a single average domestic case where steel windows have been restored?
Even well-meaning owners probably cannot find steel restorers/manufacturers. White PVC is as good as gauranteed to replace 99% of steels. It’s the logical option for most people – move from the hell that is decaying steel frames to maintenance free PVC.Right now one of my relatives has a house with the last steels on the road, but PVC or aluminium are being considered as the only options. It’s not so much that these materials are being considered that’s unfortunate, rather that steel is not.
It isn’t even in the radar – the arguments of ‘why would you want more sticking and jamming and draughts and rusting and repainting’ are coming up.
It’s the material itself that is being criticised rather than the lack of maintenance of the windows. You might as well talk to a brick wall such is the anti-steel sentiment out there, which is understandable to a degree.Steels are also not the best advertisements for themeselves either – franky there might as well not be anything in the window apertures at all in many cases such is the frames’ uselessness in the heat and sound insulation departments. The fact that new, double glazed sealed models are available is of little consequence to most people unfortunately.
Ya Graham. Steel windows look great in a modernist way but they are not great functionally. I lived in a house with some steels and some sashes (which must have been 50 years older than the steels at least) and the old wooden sashes were in far better shape. The steel windows had no tolerance for rust or overly generous coats of paint (both of which seem to be inevitable after a couple of decades); either they jam shut or they’re impossible to close properly.
There are some better aluminiums around these days. What about the craze in the better neighbourhoods for these timber rationel windows. Ok they’re not as god awful as pvc but they stil smack of “me feinism” when doen to a terrace where everbody else has white (hopefully timber) windows. I don’t think they look great in older red brick houses either.
Some of the timber/aluminium composites are fantastic – Dansk in particular make extremely elegant profiles in both timber and alu-clad. Rationel windows are terrible – both the alu-clad and plain timber versions – with very poor weathering and detailing. Somehow they have managed to become the most well known and popular timber window providers though…
BTH – I second you on Dansk, I’ve used them (aluminium clad timber casement) and am very pleased with them. They are very expensive but were cheaper than Marvin.
KB2
@Graham Hickey wrote:
Steel is a big problem – does anyone know of a single average domestic case where steel windows have been restored?
Yes it’s very rare, but I did come across a case last summer at Orwell Gardens in Churchtown (above) – the windows appear be in the process of being sanded down/primed. But then these people obviously have taste judging by the vintage cars in the drive! 🙂
But yes, an aunt of mine had steel windows in her house – I’m aware of the problems with expansion and contraction. Whatever arguments can be made for the repairability of wooden windows, it’s more difficult to make an argument for steel windows, elegant as they are.
I think the vast majority of steel windows remaining in suburban houses are ‘freak’ survivors – i.e. there’s a stubborn old man or woman living in the house who doesn’t want to make any modern concessions, or else it’s one of those houses that stand out like a sore thumb in an estate – it’s been unocuppied for 15 years due to a family dispute or something!
Yes unfortunately this is the case everywhere – it’s only the house that has fallen into disrepair that still has its original features, notably steel windows. Any house that retains them is ripe for ‘renovation’, i.e. the binning of steels.
Anyone see the repeat of Grand Designs tonight? A couple building a modernist-inspired home by the sea; they used PVC much to the initial disgust of McCloud, but they didn’t look too bad when installed as they were very geometric in design, with no evident opening parts:
Inside though they looked appalling with those ghastly big childishly chunky plastic handles – one of the worst aspects of PVC.
Overall it would have looked so much more elegant with steel though.Similarly an original Art Deco home was on the night before – and they ripped out the original steels! 😡 The PVC installed in its place was disgusting in this case.
One other time an enlighteded couple decided to replace all of the existing shot steel windows with new steel in a 1930s house. It was modest in size, similar to ones about south Dublin, and it cost them £20,000 sterling…..Yes it is astronomically expensive to have them made – I suppose because the market for them is so tiny. I wonder how much the new steel windows cost in the former Dunlop building facade within the Dunnes development on Stephen Street/George’s Street?
The PVC used in that modernist-style new house doesn’t look too bad on the strength of those photos (never thought I’d say that!).
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