Irish say no to PVC windows

@GrahamH wrote:

If it’s any vague consolation

It’s not.

Consolation or not, we have exactly the same problem here; I have never understood why councils do not have a simple by-law staing that window replacement in buildings over a certain age should only be according to the original window profile. There would be problems of enforcement, but neighbours on the look-out are wonderful and the ‘penalty’ would be only that the original profile be reinstated.

I’ve just walked up Westland Row and they’re in the process of stripping out the first floor windows of No. 39 (over the language shop). What’s the betting they’ll be replaced with horrid PVC ones? The old wooden ones were already replaced with lumpen PVC on the top floor of the same building some time ago. Surely a protected structure? I presume they couldn’t have got planning permission for that?

Oh for goodness sake – have all the sashes already vanished cobalt?

Just lob a quick mail over to Enforcement at planningenforcement@dublincity.ie, quoting Protected Structure No. 8710, the address and your own postal address.

Just a question – are there PVC sash windows? Maybe I’m just being paranoid, but some of the new sash windows that have gone into houses here in Limerick (e.g. on O’Connell Ave./Ballinacurra Rd.) seem to have quite thick frames and glossy finish. They are *miles* better than adjoining ordinary PVC windows, but they aren’t quite as good as remaining old sashes or even some other new ones.

Do some of the new sash windows just have very glossy paint or even a plastic coating on the timber? And a more basic construction?

There are also houses with rectangular frames where the top of the window opening is arched – would the originals have been like this in some cases? There are other instances in different terraces where the original frames are arched at the top like the window openings, but maybe they weren’t all like that?

In any case, nice to see new sash windows going in, even in the current climate.

Eagle-eyes, cobalt; it’s obvious when it’s pointed out!

I was about to say well spotted cobalt, but in fairness you could hardly miss it! (or the earlier top ones for that matter)

(excuse phone camera)

Definitely the worst plastic sash I’ve ever come across, and one of the worst PVC windows generally.

Great to hear the original still survives. Good work all round. Westland Row has an excellent array of historic window types.

KeepAnEyeOnBob, they are indeed PVC sashes you are seeing everywhere. They’ve been around for many years now, developed by the PVC industry to target those who still had qualms about replacing traditional sash windows, or for persuading owners that these new windows were an approved ‘heritage solution’ for use in historic buildings. They’re generally ignorantly detailed, crass against historic materials, the joints weather very badly, and of course above all result in the loss of original fabric. They are of course illegal in Protected Structures.

Futhermore, these windows must surely have a lower lifespan than conventional PVC windows, as they use spring-loaded and pre-tensioned sliding mechanisims instead of simple pulleys and strings. These systems simply haven’t been around long enough to prove how long they last, but as with most consumer products which endure heavy use, they surely cannot be that durable or be easily replaced. Certainly large spring-loaded double-glazed timber windows I have come across have proved an absolute disaster, lasting only 6-7 years in comfortable operation before failing en masse.

As for arched or ‘segment-headed’ windows, these are commonplace in Victorian buildings and a tribute to the skills of seasoned craftsmen. It is extremely rare that you will ever encounter an arched opening in these buildings containing a square-headed window. Thus, in 99% of such cases observed, you can be guaranteed that it’s a botched replacement job.

Well done cobalt – your civic action is both commendable and seems to have paid off!

@Paul Clerkin wrote:

That is a spectacularly ugly window design.

Agreed. Do we know what gobshite owns this building? 😡

Congrats to cobalt.

Surely there are grounds for outlawing the manufacture or importation of PVC on the the grounds of it’s toxicity to the environment and human health?

How to go about lobbying for it?

Meanwhile, over at Marino Crescent, we have yet another example of newly installed, appallingly detailed double-glazed sash windows. These have just been fitted in the focal pair of central houses on Dublin’s most important (and really only) Georgian crescent. How appropriate.

Blank, expressionless double-glazing, thick glazing bars, beading instead of putty, broad stiles and rails, Victorian horns, and an overly protruding sash frame. These windows quite simply could not be any worse if they tried.

And yet this is what we get in Ireland even with flagship conservation projects such as this.

The applicant submitted:

“The existing PVC windows are inconsistent with the character of the houses. It is our intention to replace these windows with painted up and down sash windows with correct design including moulding, sash and rail detail. They will be in fully working order. This work will be carried out by an approved specialist.“

So straight away these windows are inconsistent with the submitted plans, never mind any objective assessment. The planner’s report conditioned that all works should be carried out in accordance with the Department of Environment’s Architectural Heritage Protection Guidelines for Local Authorities. For the sake of clarity, we shall quote but one of many relevant extracts from that document on the detailing of historic windows:

“The recommended specification for sealed double-glazed units makes them too bulky for fitting to historic sashes or casements. International standards recommend that the sealed space between the two panes of glass in the sealed unit should be more than 12mm and preferably about 20mm, which is nearly the full depth of most sash and casement frames. The appearance of the window will be altered by the visible black or silver seals which are part of the double-glazed unit and by the rubber or plastic gaskets or timber beading used to seal the units within the frame (which should be substantial to comply with recommended standards). Seals have a life span of perhaps two decades and, when they fail, the unit must be replaced. In that period it is unlikely that the cost of installation will have been recouped through savings on energy bills.”

This muck is cropping up absolutely everywhere. Even the involvement of Ireland’s preeminent historic buildings consultant as advisor on the project did not stop this happening.