Irish say no to PVC windows

Perversely I’m glad to see we’re not alone in this phenomenon, though I doubt the Continent has anything near the levels of disaster experienced in Ireland. Not even the UK is as bad (albeit not by much!).

Interesting you mention prestige buildings there Stephen – those notorious PVC sashes are still creeping around the main facade of Leinster House, after how many years now? Similarly the massive white PVC frame inserted into the Venetian window of the National Museum is also still there with no sign of movement – it looks horrendous, and recently on display to the nation for an hour on a recent news bulletin broadcast from the location.
One would have thought it a top priority of the OPW to get rid as soon as possible. Given they went all out with PVC instead of a temporary boarding up suggests it’s here for the long haul…

Without going off the subject too much I am looking at a property at present which has old sash windows that are in a bad state of repair. If I were to replace these with new sash windows would planning permission be required?
Also if I were to replace these with pvc (and I know a lot of people won’t lik that idea) is planning permission required to do that?
The house is a semi in an old estate. As far as I can see most of the other houses still have their original sash windows.

To be honest, modern PVC will probably be in fine condition in 10, 20, even 30 years time corkdood – nobody really knows at this point how long the newer, sturdier stuff lasts that is now available. Certainly the PVC of the 1980s and early 90s barely had a life of more than ten years in terms of decorative and even build condition, but the newer forms available now certainly have a longer life.

However, whatever about structural integrity, at the end of the day PVC is for the most part (not always) a ghastly material, and should never in a million years be used in older buildings in particular.

I imagine you live in one of Cork’s nice 1940s housing estates, built at a time when metal was in short supply and timber sashes were reintroduced as a window format. The fact that the majority of the estate still has their original windows is truly remarkable in dump-it ditch-it modern Ireland – this speaks volumes not only about how long timber as a material lasts, but also informs as to the course of action you should take, which is to restore them.

Without getting heavy about it, you do have a certain responsibility corkdood in what you do with these windows from the perspective of setting a trend for your estate! Be under no illusions: your installation of PVC or similar will help contribute to a disastrous ripple effect that happens on every residential road in Ireland, and especially in housing estates where window formats are uniform. Everyone copies each other in what they do when their windows need refurbishment – so you could either help foster a culture of conservation on your road with a decent restoration job, or simply encourage everyone to ditch their nice original sashes in favour of flat, lifeless, cheap rubbish that’ll last for half as long as what the timber has done thus far. Not only that, the uniformity of your estate will equally be destroyed, with a mish-mash of window materials, styles and colours being introduced across the board. All it takes is a couple of properties to go in a certain direction, and plastic spreads like wildfire from house to house.

Of course it’s entirely up to you what you want to do – just opinions being offered ;). PVC sashes are often touted as a good compromise – again I’d argue they’re not. They still stand out like a sore thumb, have terrible detailing up close (even from a distance with most), and can never replicate exactly the former windows and/or the surviving windows of neighbouring houses. Their life is equally poor if not worse than conventional PVC frames due to the amount of wear and tear they endure with substantial, heavy moving parts.

PVC has also no exclusive hold over double-glazing either as is often touted – your timber sashes can easily be double glazed, can be draught-proofed, can have additional security features added, and can be fully restored to perfect condition by any able joiner, no problem whatsoever.

I see you have also posted on another forum (linked on another thread here). It is suggested there that you have to constantly maintain timber – not so. Every four years or so is average for painting – you can even leave it longer on sheltered elevations. It is also suggested that PVC should be coated every 4-5 years after its initial lifespan – admittedly not really true for better quality PVC, but if you do get cheap ones well then painting them is the same as painting timber, only now you’re maintaining cheap poorly designed muck instead of a natural tailor-made product! Hmmmm – I wonder….

The planning issues are largely as outlined above, generally no need for permission if not protected or in an ACA – though your noting of most houses still having their original windows perhaps suggests a lease stipulation if the estate is managed by the Corporation (assuming it’s Cork!). Is your house a Corpo or former Corpo house?

That ‘pointing’ is so bad it’s funny Devin, though certainly not the proposed demolitions. One doesn’t know whether to be more exercised over the demolition of such stock or the erection of the inevitable dross that’ll replace them.

Above all corkdood, just about everyone who gets their windows restored are delighted with the outcome. If you do get them done, and stand watching as the newly restored heavy sashes are put back in as they were 60 or 70 years ago, and you see and feel the quality and how smoothly they operate, you’ll kick yourself for even of thinking going any other route 🙂
They will make for a great investment.

I took this snap back in August in Cork and it is somewhat depressing. The building in question is the VEC building on Paul Street, across from St. Peter & Paul’s Chuch. The building obviously is quite beautiful but this awful PVC replacement job does it no favours. Looks both ugly and cheap.

i’m involved in the Joinery business and in the past 18 months, i have noticed a strong return to wood.of course i have put wood windows into the house i’m building at the moment, but i have got comments from some neighbours along the lines of ” wood? but what about the maintenance?”
I try to explain the virtues of wood regarding maintenance, charachter and it being enviromentally friendly compared to plastics, but a lot of the time, i’m wasting my breath.they just don’t get it.

Interesting & informative post. What do you guys think of sliding sash in new builds? We’ve nearly decided on a 2 over 2 timber sash. Having no particular historical knowledge are there any particular design features we should be careful not to mix?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

@galwayrush wrote:

The modern Sash Window can now have the thermal qualities of gas filled “k” double glazing and look exactly like the original windows from yester years. Georgian or curved / gothic designs can be stuck onto the glass, achieving the ” narrow” bar traditional look, Weights are not normally used any more, we now use a special weight balanced spring mechanism that is competely hidden from view, and all parting beads are draughtproofed using special seals.

I don’t think bits of framing ‘stuck onto the glass’ is going to look like anything other than reproduction muck, IMHO.

@galwayrush wrote:

it would be impossible to include double glazing without having the bars a minimum of 40MM

Is this really the minimum? I was going to explore the possibility of double glazing in my windows but bars 40mm wide just wouldn’t be on – nor would sticking on a framework that makes it look like the window has separate panes. Guess I’ll just have to do without.

How do you mean it ‘wouldn’t be on’, cobalt, to have glazing bars applied to the surface of the glass? Granted, the notion sounds preposterous and truly hideous in concept, but in execution it’s quite a good compromise.
As featured earlier on the thread, here are Wynns Hotel’s in Dublin doubled glazed sash windows as newly installed about two years ago:

https://archiseek.com/content/attachment.php?attachmentid=692&stc=1&d=1114559190

https://archiseek.com/content/attachment.php?attachmentid=691&stc=1&d=1114559161

Installed in a fine c.1920 neoclassical granite building, they make an admirable attempt at timber sash reproduction using modern double glazing and bar application. The glazing bars are applied to the surface of the glass internally and externally using industrial adhesive tape. Fair enough, the bars look ever so slightly fake, but that’s as much down to their lack of depth as their surface mounting. This could probably improved on. The frame detailing is also a bit clunky, but at least the dodgy horns of the top floors are nothing to do with double glazing!

As for going with timber sash windows on a new build shelly81, why go traditional at all? A crisp modern sash is as good as anything, as used across Europe and the US. The sash shouldn’t be deemed as being olde worlde.

I’ve seen this modern spring system in use galwayrush – springs incased in small plastic (though painted) tubes, and used in this instance for hauling incredibly heavy, large hardwood double glazed one-over-ones. Franky a lot are jammed, in spite of being only ten years old and with minimal use. I wonder as to the effectiveness of this method. Also, could you describe in more detail how it works?