Irish Rural Dwellers Association

My original post was probably libellous. So you get this one instead. Shame.

************

I will burn in hell for this.

IRDA,
Kilbaha,
Kilrush,
Co. Clare.

(065) 905 8229

@Lobby wrote:

the Irish Rural Dwellers Association

You mean the Irish Rural Destruction Association … (Oh the smug D4-ness of it!! 🙂 )

Devin, daaahling. You really mustn’t be so perfectly beastly when talking about the good people of our regions. I simply won’t stand for it.

Of course dear … and what a ghastly unpleasant place the regions would be without their humble clachans …

So true. I hear tell from my cousin, a Rector near Bandon, that the natives become most restless if deprived of their natural habitat. Although I can not confirm such stories, venturing beyond the Pale as I do so infrequently these days, and then for only the briefest of spells.

Now if you’ll excuse me. I have just been told that the sherry is being served in the drawing room and Veronica is going to play for us. A delicate Strauss waltz, I fancy. Always such an occasion!

It really hasn’t been the same since 1798.

*citizenry of the capital scurry to the Castle for cover for the first time in 400 years*

*finds astonished aul wans with hovers clearing up after Ability Awards*

“um sorry lads, we eh…made a mistake – we kinda need it back”

[2 minutes later]

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH THE FECKIN WALLS!!!!!

Where have these guys been hiding lately?

Well they live out in the country, so I assume they’re doing country things like miling the cows, collecting money from the EU, whinging, and selling off their fields for one-off haciendas

trying to rebuild the wall around the pale i hope.
ar maybe trying to dig the rest of the tunnel around it so it can be floated back to britain

Fin those resilient D6 residents are doing it for themselves see [url=http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?daftID=d5a52613f7a740e9d17214a9fdd8313d&search=Search+%BB&s[cc_id]=ct1&s[a_id][0]=pc6&s[mnb]=&s[mxb]=&s[mnp]=&s[mxp]=&s[pt_id]=&s[search_type]=area&s[refreshmap]=1&limit=10&search_type=sale&id=80240]Terenure[/url]

7 bathrooms! Why the fuck would someone want 7 bathrooms.

You mean you can tolerate looking at the same bathroom every day of the week?!
And here was me thinking I was slumming it with one for every slash.

How the lower half live indeed – you’ve certainly opened my eyes Stephen.

@FIN wrote:

trying to rebuild the wall around the pale i hope.
ar maybe trying to dig the rest of the tunnel around it so it can be floated back to britain

You mean no-one explained to them that someone actually has to pay tax to keep their lifestyles going?

i know. it’s terrible i pay tax for…
m50, tunnel,luas,spike,etc,etc,etc,etc

we have all been through this before so i won’t go on.

Fin

No-one has raised the costs of Galway or Sligo related projects of which the benefits of are equally specific to the location but are done in the interests of civic amenity.

Are you saying that Cork taxpayers should complain about Eyre Square?

@Thomond Park wrote:

No-one has raised the costs of Galway or Sligo related projects of which the benefits of are equally specific to the location but are done in the interests of civic amenity.

Are you saying that Cork taxpayers should complain about Eyre Square?

That’s a calm and reasonable way of putting it. I should just leave it there, but unfortunately I’m not in a calm mood. @FIN wrote:

i know. it’s terrible i pay tax for…
m50, tunnel,luas,spike,etc,etc,etc,etc

we have all been through this before so i won’t go on.

Feel free to go on all you like. But be sure to make use of the regional income figures produced by CSO. They clearly show (page 13 of this attachment) that Western region households pay €1,093 million in tax, but receive €1,318 in social transfers. So you can be quite confident that any tax you pay stays local, along with an extra €225 million net in subsidies.

On the other hand, Dublin households pay €5,474 in tax and receive €3,939 in social transfers, making a net contribution of €1.5 billion available to the national finances.

If you wonder who might benefit from that, you might consider the generous provision of public services in the West described by the Western Development Commission.

• A higher share of young people go to college than anywhere else in the country
• 56% of all 17-18 year olds in Galway and 55% in Mayo and Sligo go to college — compared with 44% nationally
Children also start out on the right foot as primary schools in the West generally have smaller class sizes.
Average pupil-teacher ratios in primary schools are considerably lower than in Dublin and surrounding counties e.g. an average of about 17 pupils per teacher in Mayo compared with 22 pupils in Kildare.

What’s bizarre is not just that Westerners seem to find it physically impossible to recognise the plain fact that they are subsidised by the East. They actually try to reverse reality by pretending that they make a contribution to national finances. Whatever facilities Dublin has, including those providing national services, have been largely paid for by its own residents.

that’s a nice stat. we go to college more. what is your point there? i can only assume that you are saying that we are more intelligent. lower class sizes…it may be very true because there isn’t that big a population here. during the dark years they emigrated or moved to dublin.you have probably parents who are from the country.you should see the schools though. i do. i work here and do a lot of work trying to fix them up and make them at least bearable. most places are falling down around the kids because there isn’t the population to make it viable to either improve the existing to a good level or replace them.
there is nothing here. our children have to get educated and go to college to get anywhere in life. and basically leave the region. the reason we pay less is because there is less people here. we have less services so we pay less services charges. there are less jobs so we pay less tax. this is nothing about having cork people pay for eyre square. it is the sheer arogance to think that jackeens pay for the lifestyle we have outside the pale.
our sities (and i speak for every city outside the pale ) has no public train system and dublin has two. there is a motorway between cork and dublin. and why shouldn’t there be. cork is the second largest city we have. there is not motorway between galway and dublin and when they will finally have one we will have to pay tolls. why is this? because throughout the years all the european money has gone to improving the road network around the pale. i am not saying this is a bad thing as it is the capital and has the biggest population but don’t tell me we are better off.
you arguments are based on that you think that we are all sponging off the tax payer. i am not a farmer, my family don’t have land. it is true that farmers are getting paid to do nothing with their lands and can then sell sites off but why not. farming in ireland is dying. it used to be our chief occupation but it is now not viable for ordinary farmers to make a living. their family’s spend generations since the land grap of ’22 working the land so why not in the times of pleanty make money on it. this is the thing. IT’S THEIR LAND. they can do with it what they want. if they want to put up houses for their children on it then so be it. ( i have heard twice last week farmers getting permission for their 3/4 year old children ) they pay service charges for it. they pay their way. not as much as others i admit but they don’t get the same service.

( thomond park : i don’t use patrick street in cork. that argument is utter nonsense just like your arguments in a previous thread )

@FIN wrote:

that’s a nice stat. we go to college more. what is your point there? i can only assume that you are saying that we are more intelligent. lower class sizes…it may be very true because there isn’t that big a population here. )

Typical Western evasion on being presented with the facts. What the nice stats presented by the Western Development Commission mean is that the West is educationally advantaged because of the public funds invested in the region. For example, I remember noticing last year that the Castlebar campus of GMIT had the distinction of being the only non-private third level college where the entry requirements for courses was a bare leaving cert.

So the higher participation rate is not so much related to the innate talent of Western people, and more that they benefit from small class sizes and lower third level entry requirements because they get a generous share of state funds. @FIN wrote:

our children have to get educated and go to college to get anywhere in life. and basically leave the region.

That’s because you’ve opted for a dispersed settlement pattern, with all the social costs that implies. Cut down on the one-off housing, concentrate on developing one or two towns, and you’ll start seeing a change. @FIN wrote:

the reason we pay less is because there is less people here.

You make no net contribution, either looked at as a group or per capita. You receive a subsidy from central government – which essentially means a transfer of resources from Dublin and the Mid East region. Your suggestion that Western taxpayers make a contribution to Dublin is simply wrong, and that is the core point I want you to concede. I don’t have a problem with the idea that national resources should be shared. I just want to you to acknowledge the plain fact that this happens, and to give up your wrong and insulting suggestion that the Dublin region does not share its resources. @FIN wrote:

we have less services so we pay less services charges.

The Western Development Commission information confirms you are educationally advantaged compared to other regions. @FIN wrote:

it is the sheer arogance to think that jackeens pay for the lifestyle we have outside the pale

It is simply a fact, based on CSO data, that this is the case. I cannot understand why, other that for reasons of pure embarrassment, you cannot simply acknowledge this plain, documented fact. After all, you were quick enough to suggest that Western taxpayers paid for the M50 although this is patent nonsense. @FIN wrote:

throughout the years all the european money has gone to improving the road network around the pale. i am not saying this is a bad thing as it is the capital and has the biggest population but don’t tell me we are better off.

This is simply not true – all regions got a poke out of EU funds, while the cities suffered in the early part of our EU membership as traditional industries closed – not having any benefit from CAP. @FIN wrote:

it is true that farmers are getting paid to do nothing with their lands and can then sell sites off but why not.

Earlier, you were complaining about people needing to leave the region. The process that includes one-off housing is one of the things that screws the West. If you see no problem with farmers selling sites, then please don’t complain about the social cost. @FIN wrote:

they pay their way. not as much as others i admit but they don’t get the same service.

As the CSO and Western Development Commission material documents, your statement is false on both counts.

ha,ha…you are so blinded my friend.
i thought firstly that the cao was country wide so everyone can avail of the ‘bare leaving cert’ ( whatever that means ) gmit castlebar campus. this campus happens to be in the west. so what!
i am not evading anything at all. and what facts? you said we go to college more. i suppose it doesn’t fit in with yours and a lot like you that the culchies should live in thatched cottages and the like. it is that sort of ignorant shite that had this country on it’s knees for 50 years. but it does remind me of a joke i heard…. what does the average dubliner call a culcie? boss.
we did not choose the settlement pattern as you suggest. it is borne out of necessity.
not everyone wants to spend 300,000 plus on a mortgage that ties you for 35 years on a house in an estate. this is what is happening in the country’s towns. estate after estate. perhaps you think this is the ‘proper’ way to live but a lot of people will disagree with you on that one. personnally i think that is hell. why would anyone choose to live like that when if you have land you can build. your utopia is exactly that..yours. why would you push your idea of a way to live on anyone else. your arogance has made you assume that your way is the only way.

“You make no net contribution, either looked at as a group or per capita. You receive a subsidy from central government – which essentially means a transfer of resources from Dublin and the Mid East region. Your suggestion that Western taxpayers make a contribution to Dublin is simply wrong, and that is the core point I want you to concede. I don’t have a problem with the idea that national resources should be shared. I just want to you to acknowledge the plain fact that this happens, and to give up your wrong and insulting suggestion that the Dublin region does not share its resources. “
i said that i made a contribution to dublin. it is entirely true. as was pointed out in another thread and as you say it goes to centrral government. now if you can prove that every cent that i have paid goes into the west then by all means go for it. i would be delighted to know that but also pretty pissed off as what did they spend it on? we have no proper roads. but this isn’t just a western thing as you are trying to make it. this is all around the country outside the pale.i am from the west and living here,

“The Western Development Commission information confirms you are educationally advantaged compared to other regions.”
ha,ha…have you ever visited the west or anywhere outside dublin. i would suggest a trip and go see some schools.

“Earlier, you were complaining about people needing to leave the region. The process that includes one-off housing is one of the things that screws the West. If you see no problem with farmers selling sites, then please don’t complain about the social cost. “

i wasn’t complaining. i told the fact. i did myself but i was lucky enough that i could return. how does one-off house screw up the west? and i never complained about the social cost at all. i suggest you rerad what i type.

@FIN wrote:

ha,ha…you are so blinded my friend.
i thought firstly that the cao was country wide so everyone can avail of the ‘bare leaving cert’ ( whatever that means ) gmit castlebar campus. this campus happens to be in the west. so what!
i am not evading anything at all. and what facts? you said we go to college more. i suppose it doesn’t fit in with yours and a lot like you that the culchies should live in thatched cottages and the like. it is that sort of ignorant shite that had this country on it’s knees for 50 years. but it does remind me of a joke i heard…. what does the average dubliner call a culcie? boss.

Now you are adding bluster to evasion. The simple fact is that Western students have nearby colleges with lower entry requirements. This is clearly one of the reasons they have higher participation rates. Another is the higher level of resourcing at primary level. @FIN wrote:

we did not choose the settlement pattern as you suggest. it is borne out of necessity.

You choose it through the local authorities that you elect. @FIN wrote:

why would you push your idea of a way to live on anyone else. your arogance has made you assume that your way is the only way.

I’m not pushing anything on anyone. I’m simple saying you have to accept the consequences of the choices you make, and not blame what flows from your decisions on Dublin people. @FIN wrote:

i said that i made a contribution to dublin. it is entirely true. as was pointed out in another thread and as you say it goes to centrral government. now if you can prove that every cent that i have paid goes into the west then by all means go for it

I’ve already posted a link to the CSO publication that documents the fact that the Western region is a net recipient of state funds, so I really cannot understand why you have not conceded this point. @FIN wrote:

i would be delighted to know that but also pretty pissed off as what did they spend it on? we have no proper roads. but this isn’t just a western thing as you are trying to make it. this is all around the country outside the pale.i am from the west and living here,

Your point about the infrastructure being lacking outside Dublin is frequently crowd pleasing, but utterly untrue. As has been said elsewhere, contrast the congestion at Dublin Airport with the way that the West is paved with underutilised airports. Infrastructure is only provided in Dublin long after the need has become critical, becuase of the petty begrudgery caused by any investment in the capital. @FIN wrote:

ha,ha…have you ever visited the west or anywhere outside dublin. i would suggest a trip and go see some schools.

Bizarrely, you said this in response to material I was quoting from the Western Development Commission in Ballaghaderreen. Like many people living in Dublin, I am well acquainted with the West, and the plain fact that it shows the benefits of the preferential treatment in receives. Unfortunately, people in the West seem less aware of the world outside their region. @FIN wrote:

i wasn’t complaining. i told the fact. i did myself but i was lucky enough that i could return. how does one-off house screw up the west? and i never complained about the social cost at all. i suggest you rerad what i type.

The social cost of one-off housing includes having a settlement pattern unsuited to attracting employment, which means people need to leave. You complained about people having to leave to find work, yet said you had no problem with farmers selling sites. Those sites would be used for one-off housing.

Which all adds up to you complaining about the social consequences of one-off housing, while not complaining about the cause of that consequence. Which is exactly the kind of utter nonsense that litters political debate in the West.

@FIN wrote:

( thomond park : i don’t use patrick street in cork. that argument is utter nonsense just like your arguments in a previous thread )

Would you care to elaborate on my previous comments?

The point I was making which Schuhart also makes is that the location of projects is unimportant I welcome the O’Connell St project and Luas and Pana and Eyre Square getting a makeover because all can be justified on civic amenity / transport efficiency grounds. All have been planned and their costs analysed well at least on the back of a cigerette box at least.

Singular Rural Commuting Residences are not planned and are disruptive both to agricultural professionals and local authorities in terms of infrastructural and service provision.

At the risk of adding fat to this fire…not knowing very much about the IRDA I googled them and found this on the net from the Western People (dated 20/08/2003).

UNDEMOCRATIC AND ANTI PEOPLE
The Irish Rural Dwellers Association was formed a year ago in order to safeguard people’s rights who have been refused planning permission in rural areas in this country.
It has been found that at a stroke of a pen vast areas of very valuable land in rural areas and villages have had value of such property reduced to nil and that even family members cannot get planning permission on their own land while housing and hotels can be built on The Ridge Pool in Ballina or on the Garavogue in Sligo.
Inside the year they have done quite a lot of research and have come up with interesting facts and have issued a press release on the matter.

IRISH RURAL DWELLERS ASSOCIATION
The Irish Rural Dwellers Association established a year ago to unite rural people in the face of mounting pressures on the future of rural communities, have exposed what may well be the main cause of refusals for houses in the open countryside and corresponding pressures to move people into towns and villages. Reaction against the entire planning regime as if affects rural houses is countrywide and large turnouts at IRDA meetings reflect the hurt, frustration and anger of ordinary people who can’t build houses for their families – often on family owned land.
“The planning regime is undemocratic, anti-people and out of control” says a spokesman for the IRDA. “A root and branch change is now essential including radical legislative change”.
Pointing out that the traditional Irish housing pattern based on the townland (baile fearann) stretching back thousands of years which is uniquely different from England and mainland Europe, has become almost entirely dominated by an English planning philosophy, the spokesman said that the IRDA are determined to see control of planning policy brought back to elected Irish politicians.
Until recently, Town Planners educated in Ireland graduated without any rural qualification. Available journals and planning literature are predominately English. Most graduates are accredited by the Royal Town Planning Institute (RTPI) in London. In addition, many Irish planners received their education in colleges in England.
Speaking at a public meeting in Macroom on June 23rd Kieran Lynch, ex senior planning executive and consultant lecturer, agreed with Jim Connolly of the IRDA, that the Irish Planning regime is UK influenced. “We have failed to produce an Irish planning philosophy so far” he said.
In An Bord Pleanala’s annual report for 2001, the Chairman John O’Connor states that the majority of extra resources (including 50 planners) brought in to cope with the increased workload are UK based.
As well, the RTPI have set up an Irish Planning Policy Panel with an office in Clare. A discussion paper published in July 2002 is intended to influence Irish Planning Policy. The RTPI have only three regional branches worldwide i.e. Scotland, Wales, and Ireland. When asked the reason for their Irish Planning Policy (they have no other such panel outside Ireland) a spokespersonf or the RTPI in London said “because of the long historical links between England and Ireland, because they don’t really consider Ireland to be ‘abroad’ and because they have so much members working in planning authorities in Ireland”.
“This is not a case of Brit bashing – The IRDA would be equally opposed to an alien planning philosophy being imposed on the Irish people from Germany, France or any other country” the spokesman said.
Individual planners have huge powers of personal discretion in recommending permission or refusal for houses. Inconsistencies abound everywhere. Concern for Irish culture and traditional rural community life is completely ignored in the current regime. It is further largely undermined by an influx of planners from many other countries around the world who make decisions in Ireland without any understanding of Irish traditions and without being obliged by the D.O.E. to do any course whatsoever in Irish history or related subjects before being allowed to practise here.
“The IRDA believe it is a small wonder that rural people and people wanting to live there are suffering, frustrated, angry and demanding change. They have lost all respect for planning authorities and see them as the successors of the landlords who tried to depopulate Ireland in the 19th Century.
“It is a very serious matter for democracy when people lose respect for institutions of the State or state sponsored private bodies like An Taisce. These institutions cannot function in the long term in any democracy without the respect and support of the tax payers who pay their wages.
The IRDA are running a conference on ‘Positive Planning for houses in the Open Countryside and Vibrant Rural Communities’ in Caherciveen on the 3rd and 4th of October. Details are available at 065-9058229.

@StephenC wrote:

[…]Pointing out that the traditional Irish housing pattern based on the townland (baile fearann) stretching back thousands of years which is uniquely different from England and mainland Europe, has become almost entirely dominated by an English planning philosophy, the spokesman said that the IRDA are determined to see control of planning policy brought back to elected Irish politicians.Until recently, Town Planners educated in Ireland graduated without any rural qualification. Available journals and planning literature are predominately English. Most graduates are accredited by the Royal Town Planning Institute (RTPI) in London. In addition, many Irish planners received their education in colleges in England.
[…]

Anyone for the IRDA Liam Lawlor Memorial Institute of Irish Planning? Application forms available here.

i thought that was quite good. recently i did a house for my sister and her husband. and no it wasn’t in the countryside. in a town, behind his mothers house. i got an F.I. and responded to it. they turned it down on 3 completely different reasons. one being that no development in backlands of existing streetscapes. now, they won’t let you build ina town or in the countryside. they are trying to force everyone to live in estates. this needs to change and i agree ( i will brit bash) that needs to be stopped. ” we don’t consider ireland to be abroad” … does this not boil your blood.. who am i talking to…sure most of you would love that…and for that matter why is it still the royal institute of architects and while i’m here the royal national lifeboat association or any other royal institute…either we are a seperate country or not. my mother used to say ” that the country is in such a ruin that we should hand it back to the queen and apologies for the state we left it in ” … now obviously i was agast but it seems we never really got away from the queen in certain respects and with the way our main streets ( high streets is such a jaffa term ) are going we are handing it back inch by inch.if we are not careful they will start claiming it back

rant over – phew… jaysus i’m tired…

back to sense… while it is curropt, and it is very curropt ( i can never remember how to spell that but i don’t care ) we are never going to progress unless we stand on our own two feet and not try to copy everything they do.
someone said that there is a “not in my back yard” attitude. and yes there is for major infrastructure planning. i welcomed the governments fast track system for these jobs but it still can be held up by one objector costing us all a lot of money.
while i am in favour of one off housing i am not in favour of these shite that are blighting the countryside. in my perfect world they would all be architect’s designed and fit in perfectly with the landscape adding to the viewing pleasure of our visitors from the east down to our quaint part of the country spending their pounds ( oops sorry euros ) and of course designed by me 🙂 sorry couldn’t help that one. if there weren’t the box houses ( ikea probably are developing a kit house there are so many alike ) then it wouldn’t be half the battle to get one. the economic arguments are nonsense. you don’t pay for the one – off’s but you will never change your minds so i won’t even bother trying to again. the irda as an institutation is probably a good idea but it would have to have architectural and planners representation and dare i say it an taisce as well. then we would all be able to work together which would be nice for a change. we would have to leave the politicians out of it as they are just bull-shitters and would waste precious time.

@Paul Clerkin wrote:

Well they live out in the country, so I assume they’re doing country things like miling the cows, collecting money from the EU, whinging, and selling off their fields for one-off haciendas

Your one to talk about whinging! I’d say you’ve milked a fair few cows in your time!

The PDs have launched a policy document on one-off housing:
http://www.progressivedemocrats.ie/uploads/images/Planning_For_A_Rural_Future.doc
which recommends further easing of planning restrictions on one-off housing and goes so far as to suggest that

, in areas which are experiencing population decline, we would like to see incentives created for people to move into these areas rather than the barriers that currently exist

in other words that the government should pay people to live outside towns and villages. Before the relaxation of housing guidelines in 2005, 80% of one off housing applications were already being approved. After the sustainable rural housing guidelines policy, that figure increased to 90%.

I think we are moving towards a situation where, as in FIN’s case, it has become far more difficult to get permission for urban housing in towns and villages than it is to get permission for suburban or one-off housing. We are operating a system where the more energy your lifestyle uses, the easier it is to get permission to build a house.

The number of people who disagree with this policy seems to be dwindling down to a few tree-hugging nutcases. I am a meat-eating capitalist and I am disgusted that the only party left that I can vote for is the greens.

No coincidence that Tom Parlon launched this document at the National Ploughing Championships.

I’m sickened, but not remotely surprised, by this cheap, opportunistic electioneering. My reasons are the usual ones trotted out in these debates, not worth rehearsing here as they’ve been elaborated on at length in many other threads here already. One thing I think is worth highlighting, though, is the following quote from an article in Saturday’s Irish Times:

“Mr Parlon said rural dwellers should have the same rights as urban dwellers when it comes to deciding where to live.”

If anyone wants or needs me to comment on the plain stupidity and offensiveness of that statement, let me know and I’ll gladly oblige, but I think it should be clear to anyone with even half a brain.

EDIT: Having just downloaded it, I’ve a quick question- why is it in Word? Makes it look cheap, thrown together and unprofessional.
Have they never heard of PDFs? Or maybe they’ve only ever encountered the letters PDF as an abbreviated insult?

@ctesiphon wrote:

“Mr Parlon said rural dwellers should have the same rights as urban dwellers when it comes to deciding where to live.”

Its like we live with two parallel dialogues which never meet. How do the local authorities square the world view represented by Parlon’s statement with their denial that Irish planning is a case study in how not to do it?

Councils reject EU criticism of poor planning policies
04/10/2006 – 13:09:32
The organisation representing local authorities around the country has rejected criticism of Irish planning policies from the EU’s environmental body.

Reports this morning say the European Environment Agency has cited Ireland as the “worst-case scenario” when it comes to urban planning.

The criticism is reportedly contained in an assessment due to be published later this month to show new EU member states how not to approach the issue of planning.

It highlights vast urban sprawl in Dublin, as well as in villages and towns across the entire country.

However, the Association of City and County Councils has rejected the EEA’s criticism today, saying its members were only rezoning land to meet local housing needs and people seeking to move out of built-up areas were frequently being denied planning permission in rural areas.

@ctesiphon wrote:

Have they never heard of PDFs? Or maybe they’ve only ever encountered the letters PDF as an abbreviated insult?

They’re immune to that stuff. You don’y want to know what PD means in French!;)

When I was on a language exchange in my teens in Angers in France, the kids in the family were all highly amused by some of the books I had brought with me- they were written by P.D. James, who will forever more be known to me as Payday Jems.

The French ‘version’ of PD has often brought a smile to my face when the Irish PDs get mentioned. Amazing what kids can teach you.

The 80% figure is from Éamon Ó Cuív speech to IRDA 2003
http://www.pobail.ie/en/MinistersSpeeches/2003/October/htmltext,3857,en.html
A figure of 85% was issued by the D0E in 2004
see this debate in the senate:
http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/S/0175/S.0175.200403100006.html

It’s true that the pre-planning discussions cut down the rejection rate. No matter what way you look at it though, we are seeing over 30,000 new one-off houses being built each year in Ireland.

“Mammy! Mammy! The bold boys from Dublin are being mean to me! They keep trying to tell me that we’re ruining the country with our unsustainable lifestyles and our individualistic greed. They think they understand our way of life, but they don’t. They don’t! This is how our people, and our people’s people, and our people’s people’s people and our…”

“Okay Seánie, I know what you’re getting at.”

“…and our people’s people’s people’s people’s people’s people (is that 5,000 yet?) have lived since the dawn of civilisation. This is who we are! Can’t those jackeens see that? What should I do? It’s so unfair!”

“Why don’t you ask your cousin Liamy up in Mayo to write an ill-informed, put-upon, chip-on-the-shoulder article trotting out all the usual jaundiced, nonsensical stereotypes about ‘smart ass city slickers’, ‘west Brits’ and the ‘colonial’ mentality? He’s very good with that sort of thing, y’know. And when you’re finished, be sure to take that pig outside so daddy can get his SUV in beside the fire.”

“I will, mammy. I will! This’ll show them la-di-da types from Dublin who’s boss, so it will so it will. Begosh and begorrah.”

*tugs forelock*

*********

You often lament the lack of mention for archiseek.com in the meeja, Paul, but I’m not sure that this is what you had in mind: http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=312&Itemid=38

Planning for slick rural dwellers Wednesday, 06 September 2006

Liamy MacNally on the matters of fact and the facts of the matter

Planning for slick rural dwellers

There is nothing worse than smart ass city slickers who pride themselves in taking a swipe at people from outside the Pale. Apart from the obvious and most welcome lesson that was meted out to some of our city brethren on the hallowed grounds of Croke Park recently, city slickers often adopt a superior attitude towards those of us from outside the metropolitan 50 kilometres per hour speed limit. It is even more nauseating when the slickers meet on-line and hide behind the skirts of discussion fora to launch verbal scuds on people outside the capital. These egg-in-the-mouth scripts smack of the West Brit nonsense so familiar to a certain breed of misnamed professional.
Check out the discussion board of archiseek.com Irish website relating to the Irish Rural Dwellers’ Association. The pages are graced with the repulsive scripts that belong to a colonial past, long dead but obviously, still hankered after by a few withered brains masquerading as architectural intellects. The reason for the architectural verbal outrage stemmed from a query for a contact number for the Irish Rural Dwellers’ Association.

The IRDA
The Irish Rural Dwellers’ Association was set up in 2002 with national membership and is based in Co Clare. Its main aim is: “To unite all rural dwellers and people of goodwill towards rural Ireland and in the context of peaceful, multi-cultural co-existence in the common cause of ensuring, by legal and constitutional means, the growth and maintenance of a vibrant, populated countryside in the traditional Irish forms of baile fearann or dispersed village, sráid bhaile or street village and the clachán or nucleated clustered village.”
The IRDA is a voluntary, unfunded organisation that depends on the €20 annual subscription of its members to carry out its work. It was set up to tackle the unseemly and daft approaches to rural planning adopted by planning authorities. Regardless of 800 years of domination by outside forces it is still impossible for many Irish people to live in their own area because of the colonial interpretations adopted by many planners.

A planning ‘need’
Seeking planning permission is blocked first of all by the ‘need’ question. One must establish a need to build in an area. It is no longer enough to have a family history in an area, you must also establish a need to satisfy some off-the-wall loopy interpretation of planning laws that were drawn up to assist people not shackle them. In the Jewish times of Jesus, laws replaced the Law. Today, the laws are being used to deter, prevent and refuse access to rural areas to those people whose hearts are throbbing with the beat of the countryside. They want us to live in cities and towns. The cry of ‘To hell or to Connacht’ has been replaced by those awful terms, ‘further information requested’ or ‘planning permission refused.’ What is becoming of our country when diktats are promulgated by people using half-baked ideas? Minister Dick Roche states that his Rural Planning Guidelines are there to benefit people from rural areas.
“There is now a presumption in favour of one-off houses…,” he stated at the launch. It is a pity that planners throughout the country are not aware of the Minister’s intentions. The IRDA is standing up against the latest form of bullying – denying people access to live where they want in rural areas.
The IRDA is not advocating a free for all in planning matters. It is simply advocating a sensible approach. There have been calls for ‘proofing’ to take place in government policies to ensure that rural areas are not discriminated against; the proofing that is required is in the planning process. The country once played host to over eight million people. They did not live between blades of grass or in cracks in stone walls. They lived in homes.

Rural cleansing
What is happening across the Irish countryside is akin to an ethnic cleansing of rural life. People who operate under the guise of ‘planners’ in this country do not even have to have an Irish qualification. The acceptable norm of being a ‘qualified planner’ in Ireland – those who make recommendations to grant or refuse our planning applications – refers to an international accreditation by the Royal Town Planning Institute (London) or similar, according to the IRDA. “These qualifications involve no recognition whatsoever of the special position of the island nation of Ireland in respect of our history, culture, traditions, 5,000-year-old rural settlement patterns or the many subtleties and nuances that make our country and our Irish race unique. Under Departmental regulations, non-national planners are not obliged to take courses whatsoever in relation to the ‘Irish’ dimension before taking up employment in this country.”
The planners irony does not stop there. When the Minister introduced the regulations one would have expected the planners of the country to rejoice that the person local authority planners are deemed to serve under had made an important determination in matters so dear to people of the country. Instead, the Irish Planning Institute opposed Government policy on rural housing! On the one hand, the Government attempted to deal with an explosive issue in a sensitive manner, yet those deemed with a duty of care to carry out the policy ‘mutinied’. Ah sure it is a great country! It could only happen here. The tail wags the dog and gets away with it!
The IRDA claims that the current President of the Irish Planning Institute, Mr Hank van der Kamp, “recently suggested we need a complete ban on rural housing similar to the one imposed on Northern Ireland by a British Minister in 2006. In these circumstances, where the professional organisation representing planners in the country is expressing views that are in direct opposition to Government policy on rural housing, it is nonsensical to suppose that individual IPI members do not reflect this anti-rural housing bias when assessing individual applications. The citizens’ rights to fair and objective treatment from these public servants is a sick joke.”
The IRDA goes on to claim that “the overwhelming ethos, background and qualifications of planners are towards urbanisation. They have no problem pursuing this ideology under Irish planning law.”

Taking control
Regardless of the Minister’s good intentions on rural planning laws, they cannot work when planners are unaccountable. Planners can argue that they only make recommendations rather than planning decisions, which are the remit of the relevant Town or County Manager, but the reality is that planners and/or Town and County Managers remain unaccountable to the people of the country. They are neither elected nor ever have to seek re-election. It is time that respective Town or County Managers took control in planning matters in their respective domains. Obviously, the history of the recommendations from certain planners is not a history to cherish in this country. Actions speak louder than words.
The IRDA is taking action, even to the point of meeting and preparing and submitting a joint proposal with the Royal Institute of Architects of Ireland (RIAI) to Minister Dick Roche for the introduction of a national Planning Monitoring Forum. The proposal was rejected by the Minister! Was the Minister afraid that these architects subscribed to archiseek.com!

“…a certain breed of misnamed professional”? Indeed, Mr ‘journalist’.

For the record, if anyone from the IRDA – or Liamy McNally, for that matter – would like to contribute to this discussion by attempting to defend their policies on rural housing, please join us. If we (those of us who think the IRDA is plainly misguided) are so wrong about the substantive issues, then debating with us should be like shooting fish in a barrel. Slick, repulsive, smart ass, West Brit fish, perhaps, but fish nevertheless. (Won’t somebody please think of the fish!?!?)

No takers…?

I’ve read the thread again in search of treason. The only conclusion I can come to is that the Mayo News regard questioning destructive myths as an inherently unIrish activity.

On a more positive note, I’m actually surprised these discussions are obviously bothering someone to the extent that a local paper in Mayo prints a load of evasive mindless nonsense as a comfort.

The IRDA is not advocating a free for all in planning matters. It is simply advocating a sensible approach. There have been calls for ‘proofing’ to take place in government policies to ensure that rural areas are not discriminated against; the proofing that is required is in the planning process.

I have heard this line from the IRA in the past but yet have never heard what this sensible approach actually contains; when pressed on issues such as urban demand where there is no link to the area or poor selection which results in a health risk to the applicant because of poor drainage they are remarkably silent.

I will never forget a late evening conversation in a bar with a planner I met by chance who was practising in the west; the individual described the constant requirement to explain to people that if the applicant built on a karst site that they would end up drinking their own effluent; the answer was often ah sure it doesn’t matter we’ll sell up anyway.

The IRDA claims that the current President of the Irish Planning Institute, Mr Hank van der Kamp, “recently suggested we need a complete ban on rural housing similar to the one imposed on Northern Ireland by a British Minister in 2006. In these circumstances, where the professional organisation representing planners in the country is expressing views that are in direct opposition to Government policy on rural housing, it is nonsensical to suppose that individual IPI members do not reflect this anti-rural housing bias when assessing individual applications.

Given the number of permissions that have been granted in recent years that statement is an absolute nonsense.

@PVC King wrote:

I have heard this line from the IRA in the past but yet have never heard what this sensible approach actually contains]IRDA had an audience with the Dáil joint committee on Environment and Local Governmenrt where Eamon Gilmore asked them under what circumstances they would oppose one-off housing. Their spokesman said

There are many parts of my home county of Mayo where there are dispersed communities and open tracts of countryside where no one lives. There is an altitude limit for the construction of houses; this would also be true of Kildare. I would not allow one house to be built in vacant areas of Mayo, Galway or Donegal and would respect the current altitude limit in counties such as Kildare and others. There is no question of the IRDA wanting a complete free-for-all.

http://www.irlgov.ie/committees-29/c-environment/20031106-J/Page3.htm

FG, FF and the PDs have all come out in strong support of relaxation of planning rules for rural housing. Labour sat on the fence and just complained with the way the minister went about drawing up the rural housing guidelines. The greens opposed the new guidelines.

The most enthusiastic politcial party were Sinn Féin/IRDA

Frank

Although this dates from 2003; I am shocked it relects very poorly on the Chairman that Healy Rae’s inferences ala the Nazis were allowed stand on the record; it appears that the site selling industry has indeed gained sufferage from a number of quarters who may or may not hang onto very marginal seats and it is quite simply unacceptable many of the statements that were allowed to stand.

Your analysis is spot on for that time

http://www.markingtime.org/articles/Articles/One-offHousingkilledmycat.html

There’s no point in demonising IRDA, they are a lobby group, representing a widely held view. Their spokespeople make lengthy arguments for their case. Although they say that British planning rules are not appropriate for Ireland, they are not overtly anti-British. Our public representatives have gone far further in their anti-Briish comments. Healy-Rae really goes the furthest in saying “An Taisce has caused more destruction in south County Kerry than Hitler did in Europe during the last war”.

One of IRDA’s arguments is that “Each refusal for a permanent home is both a serious attack on an individual’s constitutional right as well as a personal tragedy”. The personal tragedy arises where someone has the funds to build a house (say 200-250K) but not to buy a house, (say 300-350K). The tragedy is that houses prices are too high. I think this is a temporary situation. We are increasing the housing stock by around 5% per year (100K houses) and this can’t continue indefinitely. Historically, it has usually been more expensive to build than to buy and once we return to this equilibrium, the housing tragedy focus will be on negative equity.

All organisations have fellow travellers who are unable to see beyond their own viewpoint and are often also unable to keep personality out of it.

In essence the IRDA have called for a complete free for all save for some elevated areas as they put it; they have previously called for the abolition of restrictions in SAC’s and areas of outstanding natural beauty presumably because they are not elevated examples would include the Shannon Callows or most of the nations coast.

Healey Rae is a thug and a shameless populaist who in his early dail period posed with Star glamour models to boost his profile; he is sadly not unique in his quest to retain power on the clientist model.

The assertion that there is an attack on personal liberty is non-sensical and the latest Dartmouth Square episode should illustrate that it is now landlord’s and not tenants that are starting to cite Michael Davvitt and the days of the land league.

In relation to affordability the sites that are farmed off or sold as developed properties are not cheap and in Kenmare one can expect to pay excess €500,000 for a half acre site that secured planning on the basis of local need. This is an industry and the IRDA should be listened to no more than a union can be objective on the eve of a national pay deal.

At 35,000 one offs per year local government outside the main urban centres will become economically unviable in a short few years unless a punative council tax regime is introduced.

The tinkers have the right idea – it is the perfect solution and proves that one can have one’s cake and eat it. Simply drive your one-off into town to increase housing density when needed and, subject to the vagaries of the nation’s shifting demographics and market economics, pull your one-off back to a desolate part of the countryside when deemed necessary. The government will actively fund this type of demographic obfuscation through all sorts of cultural and economic initiatives. Instead of talking about these issues, Ireland’s architectural comunity should be putting their heads together to design such mobile one-off units that would have a ‘plug-and-play’ design, by which I mean they could simply plug into the local services infrastructure of a rural town or city and then move on to rebalance the nation’s demographics when needed. 32 county compatability would, of course, be desireable.

Don’t forget Sasana which seems to absorb much of the Rathkeale contingent

Seriously I wouldn’t compare travellers with one off houses but the stance between North and South could not be more pronounced

Can anyone advise on what the offical stance is on politcal interference on planning apps.
I am doign a study on a house that got planning ( when it really should not have) due to the hard work of a certain TD! Local rep’s are left view files at certain stages when others are not, surely this is wrong & must be changed?

did he use headed paper??

He sure did, from my discussions with other planners in the area, this is standard procedure, the planners are obviously intimidated by the politicians etc!
is there anything in the planning to forbid such communications?

@zelemon wrote:

He sure did, from my discussions with other planners in the area, this is standard procedure, the planners are obviously intimidated by the politicians etc!
is there anything in the planning to forbid such communications?

no.

seeing as the board of councillors are the planners bosses, its not illogical for a planners to feel “intimidated” if there is a councillor sniffing around a file.

I have lots of experience of applications that would not have been successful without political influence. Some interference was required to curb over zealous planners, while other interference was required to give the application any hope of success. Swings and roundabouts in my view.

Planners use their CDP as their bible. They refer to regional and national plans also, and to a smaller extent local area plans. Theres no way every eventuality can be guided by these plans so there is still a large amount decision that is left to the opinion of the planner.