Irelands Ten Worst Roundabouts

headford road roundabout, galway.

i’ll second that fin, though the problem here was building a retail park along an arterial road, they were mad, everyone said they were mad and they did it anyway and its madness. it was bad enough having quinnsworth on one side, but to build on the other side was firstly unsightly and secondly, stupid. allowing retail on that garage (ashe’s?) beside the quinnsworths was stupid too.

yep…
tesc0(quinnsworth as it used to be) with a shopping centre on the roundabout, across the raod a retail park including curry’s stc, and a cinema. and across the roundabout a dunnes…now they have a large housing estate aswell…sheer brilliance of thought and design and all on the main way to get out west….ha,ha..genius.

Null

The outskirts of Limerick City seems to be Roundabout Land. There seems to be millions of them!

What about the Kinsale Road roundabout in Cork? – the southern version of the Mad Cow roundabout. Similarly I think they might have plans to replace it with flyovers now.

The entire town of Portlaoise and the Kinsale Rd Roundabout in Cork City – scariest junction ever.

😀

this is in britain…thought i would just share this seeing as we think we have crap roundabouts…

i can’t seem to put these onto the one reply so sorry

oh Blain u beat me to it – yeshhh – relieved to hear that Kinsale Rd is so bad they are making it a “proper” interchange with segregated exits and flyovers.

and again

Fin that is exactly what parts of Portlaoise look like…

i know!!! ha,ha..very funny town to drive around….

Diaspora, there is a very good roundabout just outside Kilkenny, on the Callan road to be precise, which superbly routes all southern traffic away from the city towards Dublin. Admittely it has a lower traffic flow than other well-known junctions, but…

The Walkinstown roundabout has to be Ireland’s worst. At rush hour, it is virtually impassable. Gridlock is a regular occurence. One of the problems is that there are three lanes on some of the approach roads into the roundabout – and there are six busy approach roads going into it. The biggest problem is that, unlike the Red Cow, they can’t put lights on it because there are so many approach roads.

btw, is it true there’s only one roundabout in the whole of America, or is that an urban myth?

It’s probably true (or at least please let it be true) after spending lots of time there I remember suddenly dropping dead in my tracks upon seeing a “roundabout-esque” junction in Santa Barbra, I had gotten so used to not having roundabouts.
There could be more but as a general rule they don’t use them – then again you can turn right on a red light there…

I still think that 2-lane motorways like the M50 are much worse turkeys, than most roundabouts – because it doesn’t take a lot of money to construct a roudabout. But it costs so much to make a motorway like the M50, and when you consider, it gets more expensive to do, as time goes on… not to add some redundancy for increased traffic is criminal misallocation of time, effort and resources I think.

My only suggestion, is that politians imagined only well off people would actually need to use that motorway. For all the car fans here, Forbes has a list of the Worst cars of all time The current lucky generation of automotive customers has no real understanding of how truly awful a car can be.
My favourite,

The Ford Pinto’s (1971-1980) famous safety flaw, of course, was that it was prone to blowing up if rear-ended.
Also, Renault Dauphine, (1956-1958) Folks, we’re talking about taking half a minute to do 0-60 mph.
Or, AMC Pacer, (1975-1980) The Pacer was a dud in terms of quality, execution and particularly styling. Make your own assessment about its bizarre proportions, but don’t miss the one door that’s bigger than the other

Just another thought, sign posts. The Americans can never figure out what a sign means, when it says STOP NOW. In the states, signs only read STOP. When you think about it, stop now doesn’t make much sense. What else would you do supposedly? Wait for a couple of more seconds, and then stop? 🙂

Null

History of American Highway building

Notice how they link it up with good old ‘Eik’. I heard Patrick Scott saying last night in the documentary, that in the 1930s in Ireland during the economic war with Britain, some people were saying, I wish we had a Mussolini here.

I guess Ireland, in the early parts of the 20th century never had a stage at which, some leader or otherwise charismatic person took matters into their own hands.

We have had many ‘personalities’ for our leaders, we have a ‘kind of personality now’ for a leader, and he does seem to get into the motorway thing a bit. But how many ringforts do you think good old ‘El Duce’ would stop for? 🙂

That anybody would ever romanticize the days when America moved on rails would have stunned the highway boosters of the first half of the 20th century. In those days, highways meant progress, pure and simple. Railroads and streetcars did not. Both had been built with private capital, and the railroads in particular embodied capitalism at its most rapacious. To the Progressives who came to political power at the turn of the century, highways were the Main Street alternative to Wall Street-dominated rail. And for people who lived in rural areas, paved roads weren’t just an alternative; they were an escape from mud-imposed isolation during the rainy months.

Well if you read that extract above, which related trains to stock exchanges, and highway building to the new progressive people in power – I think that the internet and computing nowadays – is a highway too. One which is driven by consumer demand, and like the early days of the automotive industry, has had more than its fair share of cowboys too. You will notice, that like the automotive industry, the number of players in the computer industry are getting less and less.

But what was interesting was how, the dotcom bust proves, that unlike the old days, with the railroad building analogy for the internet – you cannot ‘corporatise’ the new highways – automotive or otherwise. Places like America have taken ‘the consumer oriented world’ to an extreme, with loads of motorway, loads of cheap web access, loads of mals,… all to do with consumer spending, and in turn keeping their economy booming.

In and around America’s big cities, the legacy of the Interstates is more complicated. When talk of an Interstate system first began in the 1930s, urban areas weren’t really part of the equation. The point was to link cities, not repave them. By the 1950s, though, big-city mayors and merchants were becoming alarmed by the car-enabled outflow of people and commerce to the suburbs. The solution, as they saw it, was to make it easier to get into, out of, and around cities by car. Highway planners listened and redrew their Interstate maps to wrap every big city with superhighways, high cost be damned.

The backlash came remarkably quickly. It’s easy enough to trace in the pages of FORTUNE: Through 1956 the magazine depicted urban superhighways in a positive light. But in 1957 and 1958, as the bulldozers came out in force, a series of articles on “The Exploding Metropolis” called the automobile’s urban role into question, wondering at one point whether the highways needed to get cars downtown might “carve so much space out of the city that little worthwhile will remain.”

The notion that big highways and big cities don’t mix spread. In 1959, San Franciscans staged the “freeway revolt” that halted the building of the Embarcadero Freeway along the city’s waterfront. In the 1960s, successful anti-freeway protests followed in Washington, D.C., New Orleans, New York, Boston, and other cities.

But what really baffles me is not that corners were cut but that in subsequent years developments such as Quarryvale were sited literally on top of these important national infrastructure nodes.

I think this extract from the article at Fortune, presents us with a picture of Quarryvale etc, you may or may not like.

Meanwhile, the mass entrance of married women into the workforce in the 1970s and 1980s meant that more Americans had to get to work than ever before. The jobs to which they commuted were increasingly not in old downtowns but in new office centers built next to Interstate exits. And the houses they went home to at the end of the day were in increasingly auto-centric developments located ever farther away from center cities.

That is definitely what has screwed Ireland up so badily – high house prices, multi-car families all working, driving to school, shopping etc. Shopping centres have also become car-centric entertainment venues at nightime too.

Had to add this one:

Then there’s mass transit. Since the 1970s, new subway and streetcar networks have been built in cities across the country—Houston is the latest. But after 50 years of building houses and offices to be convenient for cars, these new systems are of only limited use.

I guess it goes back to Sim City, and all of these great old AI strategy games! 🙂

motor city!

But now and for the foreseeable future, most economic activity will happen out along the Interstates. Consider the San Francisco Bay Area during the booming 1990s: Most of the actual “wealth creation” took place south of the city off Interstates 280 and 880 and U.S. 101.

Basically, places like the Raheen Roundabout, and Red Cow Roundabout – are all about progress, economic improvements, commuting multi-car families and a heck of a lot of industrial based workforce. The are symbolic of those times.

indeed. this is the type of society that we are striving to be.

Two quickies:

US roundabouts – there are plenty, and there are also loads of a horrible device called a traffic circle that appears designed to cause accidents. Check this out:

http://www.tfhrc.gov/pubrds/fall95/p95a41.htm

You should check out the terrible interchanges that exist between freeways and surface streets in the US as well. Try the single-point urban interchange (scroll down a bit):

http://www.kurumi.com/roads/interchanges/spui.html

… or this take on the most common motorway-motorway interchange in the UK, the three-level stacked roundabout:

http://www.kurumi.com/roads/interchanges/volleyball.html

… and there is of course the most common full interchange in the US (and Germany), the cloverleaf – poor capacity, low speeds and weaving traffic all in one. It’s probably better than this though:

http://www.centerturn.com/

… and any other interchange design with overtaking-lane exits, of which we are getting a few along the M50.

Italian autostrade – these are not world-class; they have extremely narrow lanes, no hard shoulders and poor interchanges. When combined with Italian driving, they are amongst the most intimidating roads you’ll ever encounter. In fact, people who have experience of excellent British or American motorways and dismiss ours as pathetic may be surprised by the poor quality of much of Europe’s network.

can u imagine the fun of trying to explain how to drive those to pat-joe from the bog? 😀
traffic lights on roundabouts give them enough trouble….
well what do u think…roundabouts or fly-overs?

i am sick or these 2 lane motorways..i think they are stupid but i must admit…the bypassing of towns with just 1 lane…genius…and on the routes of major proposed motorways…. what were they thinking. i can only judge the gal/dub road..even though i have traveled a bit on the dub/cork. the bypass of some little shit town in kildare was just 1 lane and now the loughrea bypass is 1 as well. i thought it was going to be a motorway connecting the major cities…why waste money on these little crap things and just spend it on a proper motorway???? i can’t understand this. oh! and there is going to be about 4/5 roundabouts on the loughres bypass….i don’t know why so many are needed:(

not ym town thankfully…but if they do then nobody will see the town…hmmm! not a bad idea!!

At least we’ve never done this:

And most development of the past 50 years isn’t dense enough to support mass transit—even when it is, the failure of newer suburbs to build sidewalks has made it unpleasant or impossible for many Americans to walk short distances to schools, stores, bus stops, and train stations. (This, coupled with the rise of fast-food chains, may be where the Interstate system and the nation’s obesity epidemic intersect.)

Originally posted by phil
The outskirts of Limerick City seems to be Roundabout Land. There seems to be millions of them!

Try Mullingar. Roundabouts everywhere, they must be Westmeath Co Council’s answer to everything.:(

when in doubt stick in a roundabout!

jeez, i’m a poet … that should have been my calling!!!!!

do the little tits on the road count?

Yeah – that’s a Tralee speciality. Most people just drive right over them!

(urban areas) Does it cost that much more to install lights at a junction that to dig up and redesign for a roundabout?

nenagh too. there is two on the main street…stupid little things

The only thing it has delivered was a quick buck to a few minor developers.

Yeah, great statement.

I am really looking forward to the Gilmartin phase of Mahon Tribunal

I dunno, I am actually surprised to hear that kind of sentiment expressed here on the board. I mean, if recent global events with earthquakes and relief work are anything to go by, I would say that Ireland is a country which leads the world in terms of providing personnel, money, supplies and logistics for all kinds of relief work globally.

But, the cost of relief work, after the damage has been done is huge. Now, what about spending a small amount of money making sure that suitable designs are implemented in areas of the world, where developers construct unsuitable urban building, in the path of tornados, earthquakes, flooding, tidal waves, erosion etc.

I mean, when it comes to spending anything before the disaster happens we as a nation are incredibly complacent. We all seem to love rushing out driving our aid jeeps, with our bachelors degree in medicine or economics solving all the world’s problems/disasters. It is like some massive disaster adventure holiday. A relief from the deary, hum-drum existence of living in Terenure or Clontarf. It is nice to know, we will return to that.

But telling stories about disaster relief, and our generousity to nations facing turmoil – that all sounds good. No one in Ireland, could be credited with providing engineering services for earthquake prone housing developments in some poor country, and supervising their execution with relevant authorities.

No, it is much more ‘Bruce Willis’ to run in with vans, and lorries with big crosses painted on them – yelling and making a fuss like an actor for ‘ER’, but ultimately doing very little real to stop the problems. A fitting platform for our ravishing movie star good looks, and huge opinion of ourselves.

The tribunals in this country are just another lavish and expensive ‘post mortem’ and excursion into ‘La-la’ land for a bunch of ‘concerned middle class anal-retentives’ IMHO.

ooch! but quite true i must say about the tribunals. and it doesn’t pay to do the low profile things like engineering supervision. the general public don’t particularly care about that. “sure what are you doing that for, can’t they do that themselves” also local costom’s in building are what’s used in afflicted countries who are too poor to correct it themselves. a hell of a lot of money would be needed to provide what u ask. take recent tragety in iran. a whole city needed and well still needs to be rebuilt. but how much is that going to cost and can a few paddy’s really make a large difference without some governmental aid. and with this aid will come government supervision and experts.
also that particular place was there for hundreds of years… kinda hard to say to everyone …get out and we bulldoze ur gaff in case an earthquake happens and kills loads of yez. i agree with the princple but application would be hardship in the extreme.

All I am saying, is that these tribunals are very like a good old fashioned pub fight, but using degrees and legality instead of fists. But at the end of the day, all we achieve is to beat the suger out of one another, and tell the stories about it later.

absolutely. i think they are a waste of my money to be honest. and only 1 person jailed from the whole bloody lot of them.

It is not that, it the fact that no one seems to care what they cost, what they are achieving – that is, other than providing RTE and the Irish Times with something to report about. On the other hand, did anyone see the programme made by the BBC about house design last night? The one where all the house was built in a factory in Germany and shipped by road as far as England?

A ‘Huf’ house?

I think, if you put some EU funding towards the Germans to help solve some difficulties in poorer countries prone to disasters, you might get more results than a bunch of middle class ‘concerned’ Irish people pissing around in jeeps, looking for war stories to bring back to their old cronies. 🙂 Now, allow me to qualify something here, before I am completely misunderstood. I have heard it said, the Irish and the Mexicans make the best journalists/reporters in the world. That is a very useful function, in the context of disaster prone relief/prevention too.

I mean, the Asians, in the tech world are notorious for being tight-lipped about tech glitches etc – seen as weak to admit a problem you see. The Texans like Mikey Dell are over-achievers, the Germans are too proud to own up to difficulties etc and would prefer to go down with a sinking ship. But I think the Irish, tell it how it really is, regardless of who/what it might offend. So we are great in some areas – just not in others. The tribunals are probably done to the highest standards of fact-finding and reporting – for all I know.

But, you cannot solve every problem by using the gift of the gab. But I think there is a real role there alone, for the Irish in trying to sort ot the problems in poorer countries. If we are ever going to benefit from more stability and safety globally, we here in the relatively well to do, parts of western Europe and North America are going to have to learn to change some very deeply routed and fundamental attitudes, which have been lingering around far too long – since the days of missionaries etc, etc, etc.

It is the same with the refugee problem – all we want to do, is talk and talk and talk about the rascism, and accomodating more refugees etc. But no mention about what is happening in these countries to begin with – or putting our money and effort where our mouth is, and solving that.

austrians doing it aswell…. they are into the irish market now. called griffner-haus…collaboration with coillte. that wouldn’t suit some climates and i wouldn’t know about earthquake proof… maybe..

The Germans on the BBC program last night were building construction super heros – I think they could cope with lots and lots of big problems.

I believe a lot of the techniques they use for building these houses, owe much to the tools and techniques used by stage designers to set up and move large props.

As to the factory end of it, as the reporter said – where are the page 3 pin ups from the Sun newspaper – if BMW were to build houses, that is how they would build them.

Gotham Gazette (love that name) mentions some of these ideas too:

City dwellers “listening to President George W. Bush’s 2004 State of the Union Address on primetime last week may have felt overlooked. The president never once uttered the words ‘urban’ or ‘city’ or ‘New York,’ though he did say ‘Bulgaria’ and ‘Bali.’.. Today, there is no real urban policy agenda in Washington… [rather] there is a history of deep anti-urban sentiment in America… Cities continue to be seen as places of poverty, corruption, crime, and immorality. And immigrants, who traditionally first settle in urban areas, have often been viewed with suspicion.”

A large part of our view of cities in all parts of the world, both rich and poor, has been coloured by the Bush administration I think. We need to get back to a solid urban ajenda and less of a ‘political one’. The NYC competition etc, maybe has been used to keep urban design politicised for longer than it should.

Today, there is no real urban policy agenda in Washington.

“There is no leader in the executive branch [for urban issues] and there are no committees in Congress that make it a priority,” said David Rapp, editor of Congressional Quarterly, a publication with 100 reporters covering Congress. “We don’t even have a reporter assigned to cover urban affairs.”

See my point about Irish people and reporting?

Originally posted by garethace
construction super heros

ha,ha…captain house defeats the evil brain devoring alien creature with his faithful sidekick apartment boy, episode 1, etc,etc…

😀

sorry i forgot what u said from laughing… and yea..very easy build..kinda like ikea…

Damn, I was waiting for a story about angry elves bearing knives and riding huge war-ferrets. Hmmm, maybe I should sleep now.

huge war ferrets….. elves.. cool! episode 2 perhaps…tune in next time, same construction time, same construction channel.

Re Overseas development aid and Bruce Willis types I agree entirely having experience of Latin America and West Africa. They are like the mandarin classes of the Irish civil service 30 years ago.
Going around in their USAID or EU badged jeeps either gringos or natives ‘a station above their peers’.

The thing is, I never have been abroad in these situations, but I kind of know what to expect from Irish people in general, in the types of solutions they seem to use to every known kind of problem. I think the Italians and the Irish could get along well – like small Fiat cars – making a tremendous fuss and achieving very little. But then again – that country has given so much too, in terms of art, fashion, cooking, music – the Irish have given the world writers and poets/playwrights.

There is a good film about a prison camp in Scotland during WWII, where the germans were escaping to man subs, and they brought in some Irish man to sort them out – worth a watch – McKenzie’s way – or something – circa 1970s movie.

If we build rubbish, then we can argue about it, blame one another and use the issue as a political football for generations afterwards. To do something right needs mental strengths and great individual reserve – a strong national psyche, is something the Germans etc lean very heavily upon as a nation – they have had to all down through history. It is something we don’t do at all.

I think an artist you should look at is Joseph Bueys, who was very interested in countries on the edges – places like Greece, Italy, Ireland, Portugal etc. The appear to share some very common characteristics, despite being geographically in totally different places. As opposed to the more inland parts of Europe, which developed in a different way.

Back on topic 😉 –

Does it cost that much more to install lights at a junction that to dig up and redesign for a roundabout?

Roundabouts, or at least the real ones and not those little bumps that are really for traffic calming, cost significantly more than traffic lights, but have about twice the capacity. I know that is hard to believe, but it is the case.

i could never understand the traffic lights on a roundabout. maybe a big one. the is one where the m50 meets the m? to galway..sorry don’t know it’s number..i think it’s the n4/7 but i think that works quite well..well it did anytime i drove through it.

yea..i know that section…the great irish blunders… my mother has said to me ( only once i have to admit as she got reprimanded) that we can’t run a country and we should hand it back to the queen and apoligise for the state that it’s in.

from the indo today!!!!!!!!

Costs pile up as court stalls M50 plan again
Friday January 30th 2004

TAXPAYERS face an extra bill of €1m-a-month after the M50 motorway project at Carrickmines was halted again following yesterday’s High Court decision.

The Government is to rush through emergency legislation to complete the project after the court ruled it had acted beyond its powers.

But for every month the project is now delayed taxpayers will have to pay an extra €1m as builders cannot move onto the site, the National Roads Authority revealed.

There are 500 workers and contractors waiting to move on to the site and the bulk of the extra costs will go in salaries and huge overheads.

The court yesterday overturned Environment Minister Martin Cullen’s consent for works involving the destruction or removal of medieval remains at Carrickmines Castle.

The consent meant that at long last, after years of objections, work could finally get under way at the site.

But the court overturned government orders of 1996 and 2002 which changed the system allowing work which could destroy national monuments.

The decision means the Government will now have to draw up new legislation to complete the motorway – or face having an M50 motorway with a hole in the middle at Carrickmines.

They could bring in emergency legislation relatively quickly but it would be open to renewed challenge. A more detailed set of laws could take up to nine months.

NRA spokesman Michael Egan said he hoped the Government would press ahead with the necessary legislation needed to finish the South Eastern Motorway.

Eamon O’Hare, transportation officer with Dun Laoghaire Rathdown Co Council, said he hoped the Government would do whatever was necessary to empower them to get on to the site and complete the project.

Dun Laoghaire Rathdown Chamber of Commerce last night called for emergency legislation to solve the issue.

Chamber president Michael Johnson said: “This is a national issue. We must have legislation in place to enable the national strategic infrastructure projects obtain planning permission within a reasonable timeframe.”

He said the motorway had been the subject of “far too many delays”.

The Green Party welcomed the decision which party heritage spokesman Ciaran Cuffe said meant that the minister could not “act as judge and jury” for Carrickmines Castle.

“For the last year and a half we have been calling on Mr Cullen to bend the road and save the castle. His intransigence is causing delays and leading to an increase in costs. A compromise could still save much more of the castle and allow the road to be built.”

how about a big roundabout around this bloody castle

Originally posted by Diaspora

obliterate a world unique habitatit .

of what?

a freshwater mussel!!!!! oh! panic…lets save that…. christ that’s brutal… a poxy mussel is stopping development…. similiar to a snail stopping a housing project in clare…. FUCK SAKE PEOPLE…. some perspective…

professioinal advice from whom? and fair enough they should know eu directives.. but for just a poxy mussel then nope i can’t agree with that…life will survive possibly 10 metres away….

no argument there but i still think that to stop their preferred route with an excuse like a mussel is stupid. and in greater numbers..well we might kill them and eat them… and following rail is a good idea(if it’s straight) as it is a transport corridor anyway… and any mussels would have been killed years ago..

is there not more up to date renderings of the hp scheme. surely there is, it seems from an early stage of the competition?.
I think Liebskind is boring..more of the same!. 😮

Is this relevant?

PDF file, right click and select ‘Save target as’.

http://laedc.info/pdf/Wal-Mart_study.pdf

The consulting practice of the Los Angeles County Economic Development Corporation (LAEDC) was commissioned by Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. to conduct an even-handed assessment of the potential impact of its Supercenters on Southern California.

Those who hope that suburbia is finally growing up and starting to behave itself often cite this much-quoted line: “Edge cities mean that density is back,” taken from Joel Garreau’s 1991 book Edge City: Life on the New Frontier. Many smart growth proponents who call for higher-density, mixed-use suburbs are especially invested in the idea that maturing edge cities represent a potentially promising future. The reality, however, is that sprawl is back—or, more accurately, that it never went away.

Good paper on edgeless cities

Never heard of that book before.

Where is central park in Dublin?

So a sister DLR development to Sandyford? Except maybe not as in-line with a Charlemount, Ranelagh, Dundrum, axis to the city centre. Which makes the Sandyford thing, ‘sort of special’. 🙂

I guess when you get to Leopardstown, you are moving toward the end of Stillorglan dual carriageway and beginning of Bray Road. Which is a different kind of vibe.

The area, which gives me the creeps is around Nutgrove centre and that in-between part, before Templeouge and slightly west of Sandyford.

I agree about the nutgrove/grange rd area being a little eerie as once the gridlock clears between 10am and 4pm there is little but empty houses at 16 to the acre.

Yeah, I knew there was something out of place for Dublin city, yet also something freaky, familar about it – since I grew up in small town areas in rural west Limk – and somehow the developers in that area of Dublin must have used ‘small town somewhere in west limerick’ models to develop.

One answer is to find ways to fold new housing, even new neighborhoods, into existing suburbs

If we build praries are we surprised that cowboys will come? 🙂

Funnily enough, the M3 design is recent enough that the busy interchanges are properly designed.

The save Tara campaign has a pretty bad website here:

http://www.taraskryne.org/

Find the working links – it’s fun! Not only is the proposed scheme not described, neither are the campaigners’ suggested alternatives, if they have any.

well organised opposition. lol. does it disrupt any monuments or is their quite vocal opposition just because it’s near and it’s a few tree huggers saying”not in my back-yard” ?

The opposition is because the motorway will go through the valley (“destroy it”, of course), avoiding everything. Some protestors are concerned that the legendary five roads from Tara will be disturbed – come on, people! Will we never tunnel or bridge the Straits of Gibraltar for fear of disturbing Atlantis?

A stretch of the M6 in the lake district in Britain won National Trust awards for enhancing the landscape. A well built road meandering through a beautiful valley can be stunning in itself, but it also opens the beauty of the area up to hundreds of thousands of people who would otherwise never have seen it.

I think it’s more the principle that concerns them – if they can’t get this through or some bloody stupid fresh water mussel in N8 Durrow then the NIMBY types and auto-objectors will win in every case and set an extemely damaging precedent to our future prosperity. It is a FACT that objections to large scale projects like this are well known and noted abroad and have in the past caused Ireland to lose out on projects from certain multinationals. Talk to anyone who sit at OECD or IDA meetings. It reflects badly on us if we are unable to sacrifice to deliver projects. I’m not saying the NRA have designed well, or avoided where necessary. Nor am I suggesting that we have to demolish every trace of our past. But there is a necessary trade off, and no exceptions – progress does have a price. Also the views of the loudest does not necesarily mean the views of the many. In the case of Durrow – if this fresh water mussel is so precious and world reknowned – why is it not feted from the hills? Personally I would prefer Irelands two main cities to have one less boreen linking them.

Try a search on goggle fin:

Little Britain

30 minutes from London city centre – but like a different world – an area that just ‘happened’ around some old disused gravel pits. Land which ‘might’ some day become valuable for development – but at the moment, is just the space between factories, shopping centres and transport infrastructure.

Did anyone see the piece about ‘Little Britain’ and edgedom’s in the BBC last night? The opposite to the ‘planned environments’ in Britain like Milton Keynes.

I mean, here in Britain and Ireland we don’t have any policy to edgedoms, other than to ‘control them’ just because we like to control things. In Finland especially, i did notice a slightly different attitude to these marginal zones, where it is neither country nor city.

the point was made too – that building types and fauna can exist in ‘edgedom’ which couldn’t exist in typical rural farming subsidised environments – where the cows are ‘paid’ to chew everything to death.

Whereas, to take the urban slant, these places mostly get fenced off, or simply become pitch and putt courses – i.e. brought into the city in some kind of acceptable way.

I guess, that was the approach taken when Bolton Street done some Dublin Docklands projects a few years ago now. Pity no publication or online resource was ever made available from that – i.e. like Fluid Space thing in UCD.

i’m not sure what u mean by edgedoms. is it brownfield sites?

I took me about six years to figure out basically what is meant by edgedoms, but the BBC feature last night did it some justice. Don’t worry if my description doesn’t do it justice.

I wouldn’t try to force concepts like this one, on younger heads, as was done to me often in Bolton Street – but some day, you may come up against it again.

Warning: There is an amazing load of poetic rubbish surrounding this very subject at the moment, so just beware – a lot of it by the architects themselves.

Which makes it so strange, that the BCC news crew, in a kind of Duncan Stewart broadcasting way, managed to pull the idea together pretty well, in just a five minute feature.

I think, it would be great if these ‘features’ were downloadable from the web, like those new BMW car ads, which said “people change channels when the ads come on, and there are too many restrictions in what you can ‘broadcast’ in a car TV ad, so why not make a few feature length movies and offer them through the web”.

They got guys like Guy Ritchie, of Lock, stock and two smoking barrels and other big directors to do good car ads for web distribution.

Edgedoms are quiet, tranquil little ‘Hobbit places’ around global super cities like London for instance. Places where the environmentalists have been attracted by the unique natural habitats, which can no longer be entirely classified as being rural or urban.

The Dutch are purposely putting sheep grazing into the centre of urban developments now – not because they make any money – they are ‘the most subsidized sheep in Europe’ – but because they reckon that people just ‘need’ to see a sheep or two grazing.

The edgedoms normally happen, where land not used for rural purposes anymore, and is ‘waiting to be used’ for development purposes just get left their – these places are normally littered with the detriteus of modern urban living – corrigated iron, old fridges, and numerous other examples of human waste mingled in with nature.

Rather than approaching these environments as ‘bad lands’ per se, as the more ‘control-oriented’ amongst our society would like – some environmentalists argue, that these areas should be treated as a new kind of habitat in themselves.

THey are very cool places to have walking routes etc, for people in the cities – but not in the strictly organised sense on a closely cropped huge green area with a few planted saplings – a la Capability Brown – but allowed to before a bit natural – cleaned up a little bit – but allowing some rubbish and ram-shackle architecture to co-exist with the nature.

While some people decree, that these places shouldn’t exist at all – there should be a ‘defined edge’ between what we know as urban and rural.

I my opinion, it is always inevitable that ‘edgedoms’ will exist as large developers and pension funds buy up these territories from previous agricultural owners on the edges of major urban centres – (the organisations with the ability to anonimously just ‘sit’ on these areas for generations) the question is, what do you do with these disused places in the meantime.

A lot of the time, these areas change ownership hands many times while planning submissions are made, and grand master plans are suggested over a period of generations – in the meantime they just become eye-sores – but properly managed, could become real resources to the urban fabric.

There was a site at the top of Broadstone, between western way and the Broadstone park, which sat there totally unused for years and years – with several planning applications etc. MOLA have now been sucessful in getting a student residence planning application through for that site. But I guess, there are still several sites still remaining around Constitution hill – making it a kind of edgedom, with the Grange Gorman site and CIE lands etc, etc, etc.

It also falls ‘outside’ HARP and O’Connell St and area etc. It is potentially strategic from the point of view of Metro too I think. If you want to drive home a point, much of Parnell Square could be thought of as an edgedom too. It certainly has enough litter. 🙂

Temple Bar pre-1991, is a typical example of an inner city edgedom I think. Smithfield in its horse trading and car dealership days etc, etc, etc. The Docklands in its container phase. I guess modern Temple Bar is an example of what shouldn’t happen to edgedoms at all.

The debate is currently raging as to what should happen to downtown Los Angeles – investment could destroy what is already a working, viable area for small businesses to ‘start off’. The saying goes, that the downtown LA’s purpose isn’t to service the middle classes, it is to create them through cheap rental office and minor industrial space.

Over-doing the ‘art and culture’ treatment will just push up the rents and drive out the best bits of downtown LA at the moment.

I enjoyed the recent AAI lecture – where in Holland, they leave all activities happen in these ‘edgedoms’ for a 5 year period, and then whatever use is most common in that area after 5 years – it becomes law – that is what the area will become. 🙂

What is a real problem though, is where things like Hotels in Portmarnock are just bought up, and overnight a place which was a public place for years suddenly becomes a privately owned golf course – that is normally what happens to edgedoms in Britain. The debate is going on, over whether Britain should introduce new legislation to sucessfully manage and cultivate good ‘edgedoms’.

what is important though to realise, and this does take in Fin’s point about ‘experiencing urban environments more’ – is that these ideas about ‘edgedoms’ exist a lot in contemporary urban and architectural literature and thought.

The only problem is, that until now, they have only existed in the ‘up in the sky’ language of architectural elite super-brains and theory oriented practioners. Translate: The kind of guys who will read Rem Koolhaas books and understand them.

But this BBC feature I saw last night, was the first time in which I actually felt I could understand some of what the environmentalists, architects and urbanists were talking about.

The UCD publication called ‘Tracings no.2’ appears to look at the issue a bit too. The Docklands area of Dublin is a perfect place to argue some of these values too.

I mean, the kind of architecture you will find in an edgedom is typically different from that you might find in urban or rural contexts.

I.e. Containers converted into shops and such – the place has it’s own unique character, moods and language. A lot like what they said about Temple Bar in the original competition times.

Many would argue that Smithfield actually ‘lost’ alot of its character with those ‘award-winning’ lamps going up its centre.

That places like Constitution hill should not be given the art treatment’ so much etc.

good candidate for sheep?

http://www.cgarchitect.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=next_topic;f=5;t=000435;go=newer

🙂

You have to link the thread, remote linking of the actual jpg is prohibited at CG Architect.

Save bandwidth bills, people using site as online portfolio etc.

Going back to the roads issue – there was an alternative plan to run a road between the N2 (Derry Road) and N3 (Kells etc) that would have a spur off the other side of Kells to link it to the N3 before reconnecting with the N2 the far side of Ardee. Stretches of the N2 and N3 are only 15 miles apart at some stages and this would have carried the road far away from Tara and its Environs.

Needless to sy the NRA baulked at the idea – why build one road when you can build two.

i don’t think they have even started yet! some public meeting regarding c.p.o.’s… that’s the last i heard about it and that was last week/the week before.

but finished 2007!! he is having a laugh?

Bear in mind the Metro is going to be running in 2008…

when’s the next election? apart from l.a. election this year. can he be held to this promise???? ha,ha.

Originally posted by Diaspora

‘Fixed price contracts’ How did they ever negotiate anything else? (excluding the regular 5%-10% contingency)

yea, i never got that…if you give people the scope t rip u off then they will. no bloody wonder everything is over budget and over due if there was no fixed price! :confused:

Plenty of fine ’roundabout’ architecture here:

http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=507&si=&page=3&sort=1&perpage=9&password=&ppuser=&stype=0

Just browse your way through the gallerys, no shortage of car-oriented environmental design in the states no doubt about it.

I read Frank’s piece about open spaces in Dublin last night, the trouble for me, is that to me, someplace like the Canal banks in Dublin are ideal open space amenities, running straight through the heart of the city, and certainly the one I know down in Portobello etc, has slowly but certainly over the past number of years began to be used by people, actually as a linear park. Parts down toward Wilton terrace could do with some help though.

I think in the periphery the same thing – what kinds of open spaces you make as public amenities – certainly the Nutgrove and surroundings idea, doesn’t work nearly as well as parts of canal banks are now doing. But in warmer climates I think, that places like Spain and Italy have an easier job to make open spaces work. I mean, look at this kip – it is almost pleasant, but probably the equivalent of worst oliver bond.

http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8754&size=big&password=&sort=1&cat=527

Notice the old street car in this one:

http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8876&password=&sort=1&cat=513&page=4

http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8912&size=big&password=&sort=1&cat=513

Red Cow roundabout couldn’t never look that pleasant.

Non obvious spatial amenities are perhaps very obvious, we just do not see them.

I say the Frank Mc in his article has missed some of the best ‘open spaces’ around Dublin – so of the more obvious ones too. I mean, if the Liffery has a few more boardwalks etc, it could become a great public amenity – as it is, the new boardwalks allow one to enjoy it. The campshires are great.

http://www.cgarchitect.com/gallery/image_spotlight.asp?galleryID=15245

That image even reminds me a bit of parts of Dublin castle. If they are invested in and taken proper care of, with decent public lighting at night, elements, or edges like that, changes in level etc, are all important public amenities in ways, think of the spanish steps in rome. Like the way this building is integrated into the ruins.

http://www.cgarchitect.com/gallery/image_spotlight.asp?galleryID=14359

This site is a jem:

http://urban.cccb.org/

Lots can be done out there I think, we need to start seeing properly first though. For instance Booterstown marsh – a space left between various things – could be called an edgedom – dunno, what people think of its treatment as a natural marsh area in the middle of the city. That is, not manacured like elsewhere. Paul refers to this the odd time, about pockets of space in the city, here and there not be touched – kinda private etc, etc, dunno.

But the thing is, we make a big ‘splash’ job of someplace like Smithfield – when parts of the canal down in Wilton Terrace become prostitutes corner at night, ya know. It is like doing this big Helix mother of a cultural centre up in DCU, just because it is a university and doing 500k apartments on Carlisle pier.

You can get away with different kinds of buildings around these edgedoms etc too. You are tied down to the same rules:

http://www.cgarchitect.com/gallery/image_spotlight.asp?galleryID=13958

I think Koolhaas and the boys have tried to work that idea a lot. This looks fine in a strict street context, trabeated architecture, column and beam, but out in Red Cow etc, it just looks way too fusy and preoccupied with itself.

http://www.cgarchitect.com/gallery/image_spotlight.asp?galleryID=13909

I like that Alfa Romeo building alot I must say. This one isn’t bad, for someplace like the Red Cow etc, I think:

http://www.cgarchitect.com/gallery/image_spotlight.asp?galleryID=12956

Not a bad looker, around red cow either:

http://www.cgarchitect.com/gallery/image_spotlight.asp?galleryID=18279

Just an interesting architectural problem I think:

http://www.cgarchitect.com/gallery/image_spotlight.asp?galleryID=15471

How to create architecture in such a low rise, sprawling environment. The likes of which Thom Mayne and so on, have looked to deal with I think.

Just click.

Comments?

But just look at that for a mess of a hotel design, seriously, for the outskirts of a city? Just because it has a roundabout? Bewleys etc, etc. Lynch’s hotel beside Raheen roundabout Limerick, Red Cow etc, etc.

Libeskind, has a hotel on his pier entry:

https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2744&pagenumber=2

Maybe he should find a good roundabout so? 🙂

Interesting thanx.

that early!!!! good stuff!

is the ennis bypass the start of such a horse trail? i think that getting a full motorway between here and there is going to take at least until 2035 as u said as there is just too much hassle to stand it it’s way. probably some rare plant or other nationally important considerations. and definately if it’s not linking dublin then what’s the point???? i know it may sound like a culchie bitching about how we never get anything down here but while i don’t generally air such views it is unbelievably true. the only reason we are getting a motorway from dublin to galway is so it’ll be easier for dubliners to come down here on bank holidays when there is a massive influx. there is a complete railway from sligo to limerick and from there i presume to cork. this would serve as major infrastructural line however it remains closed while not only a luas but now a metro for the greater dublin area. and that is besides the dart. now if anyone can see sense in that then please feel free to enlighten me.

oh! absolutely. i’m not saying don’t have the metro cos it is well needed but am saying do this as well. the tuam/sligo one doesn’t have to be passenger. freight would work as well.

ah! sure they’ll think of us eventually! 🙂 it’s absolutely stupid and this gateway hub was the greatest waste of time and money. it seems to be just a publicity ploy to say to the masses ” look we haven’t forgotten you”

yea!! to none of these hubs… ha,ha.. in general as i said before it is a good idea but to politicions home towns is hilarious. typical of our corrupt government. not that the alternatives are any better. as i have also said before bring on a dictator!!!!!! apart from the whole killing everyone thing… that tends to just generate bad press. then we will get something done.
this price for the ennis by-pass is something else. i think we should re-tender everyone of them. spend a lot less money on them and bring in the turks.

They’re hardly Roman ruins are they? Or even Stone ruins, which would have some value preserving. The vikings built in wood, a thousand years after other societies built in marble. I have yet, in fact , to visit an obvious viking ruin. Although there are parts are Dublin around ChristChurch which have been built over by the Normans – we have to strain to imagine the old trading post, or see it in reproduction.

So what exactly is the fuss? Viking architecture is shite, and did they produce much in the way of artifacts that would interest anyone outside of a specialized field of interest? I doubt it. And if so, and I so far missed the Dublivinia exhibit – then what would be in this new site that isn’t already on display. This “site” was unknown about 2 weeks ago, it was underground – it is fair to say that it would be preserved by keeping it underground.

The vikings were a materialistic, unlearned and exploitative culture. Nobody outside Ireland’s reactionary conservationist movement really gives a shit – not even in their homelands – about what this rather culturally bereft people produced. Irish culture at the time was far more advanced ( Book of Kells, etc) and is thus known outside the insular world of Ireland’s conservation movement. Norman culture was advanced. British culture was advanced. The fetishisation of the mad blonde-heads has always amused me.

And we are – given the long history of the country – going to run into these ruins as we build roads, are we not?

the Italians manage to build roads despite overturning, no doubt, roman ruins and artifacts every kilometre. We have enough viking shite in the museums. Build a road.

Ahh the Kinsale Road Roundabout, Cork city – where 3 motorways and 4 roads meet, lanes disappear half-way round and no-one is ever really sure how to get off without crashing into someone else. A true wonder of modern city planning. All I can say is thank God for the long over due and pricey 42million euro fly-over which has begun construction. Hopefully, with it’s presence, we can finally account for the 25,000 out of the 85,000 vehicles that go missing there every day.

Not to split hairs, but the vikings did not establish Cork at all. It is only recently that any form of any scrap of viking remnants have been discovered. True for Waterford and Dublin though.

time team do it in 3 days!!!!!
what exactly did they find in waterford that was so amazing?

@Thomond Park wrote:

The Infamous Kinsale Road rounabout

http://irelandphotography.com/aerial/n103322a.jpg

Not for long
http://www.corkcorp.ie/ourservices/roads/pdf/eis_pg3.pdf

@Thomond Park wrote:

Yes but at what cost to the taxpayer?

€42million

It a part for the upgrade for the Primary national routes ans its planned to start this year and finished in 2007. It to make the road a bypass of Cork, but it will probably have the same effect as the M50 (which was also supposed to be a By-Pass)

@JPD wrote:

I read this very interseting thread and it needs to be said roundabouts on National roads are a disgrace, why couldn’t they get it right like every other country? How many roundabouts do you see in America?

Well I think we’re very very slowly coming around to the idea that they’re more trouble than they’re worth. The Kinsale Road Roundabout is a good example of that. Cork City Council have been forced to get a move on with it’s long overdue flyover. At peak times, tail-backs approaching the roundabout from Douglas can stretch almost 2km and about the same from the Bishopstown approach. I remember last summer being stuck in tail-backs (with all 3 lanes full) for the good part of an hour before I even got onto the roundabout. It’s a disaster, with lanes criss-crossing and disappearing halfway through. It’s a wonder anyone makes it out alive. It’s traffic lights seem to add to the crisis. The original flyover was scheduled to cost just over 25m euro, the new 42m euro price tag seems like bit of a rise doesn’t it? Work is due to start in June, with Ascon as main contractors and a completion date set for early 2007. The original start date was supposedly set for late Feb, early March.

2 other roundabouts along the same stretch of motorway are also getting flyovers at a cost of 70m euro – those at Sarsfield and Bandon Road Roundabout. The combined daily movements for these 3 roundabouts is approx. a quarter of a million movements per day (that’s a quiet day).

Nice to see the tax-payer getting value for money.

Red cow/. Parkway in Limerick, Kinsale is bad but it’s being upgraded at the momeent.. most of our roundwboute are bad, every new road with a junction is provided as one. why do we have these bloody things built everywhere these days. All the new ones on the old N7 between Monasterevin at Portlaoise. I’d rather automated traffic lights as the side roads are minimul in traffic and IMO are much safer than steep roundabouts on wide national routes.

There is no harm in having a few traffic lights here and there. Imagine Newlnads cross and Newcastle N4 getting roundabouts? which will not happen when the N4 and N7 will be upgraded.

While Dunkettle in its present form is less than ideal to cater for the confluence of two major interurban roads, it’s really not that bad, insofar as it is reasonably quick to get through, especially following the installation of trafflic lights and addition of an extra lane. Certainly wouldn’t compare of the horror of the Kinsale Road Roundabout in bygone days. Unfortunately, its location is spatially constrained, and is far too close to the tunnel to allow for the construction of an adequate grade-seperated butterfly interchange, or something similar. Another fine example of the tremendous foresight displayed by the City Council, who would have us driving around the city on a two lane undivided ring road if they had had their way!

@Thomond Park wrote:

So you reckon that Dunkettle will remain unresolved

For the foreseeable future I’m afraid so, yes.

@Peter FitzPatrick wrote:

Newlands Cross is pretty bad & there are no plans to resolve it.

It will be the only remaining junction once the Naas Road Flyovers are finished (this September) & the Red Cow removed by 2008 …

It will be horrendous when not only the The Naas and M50 is upgraded but the entire N7/N8 which will be average 110Kph into a set of red lights and a busy junction! surely there is someone planning to do something about it.

Sdcc. are really make sponge cake out of the road network. they spends millions on the QBC through already conjested Naas road, but leave the rest of the Naas road in tatters including the Newlands junction:eek:

Is there any architects that could upload a photo of their ideal interchange at newlands cross?? just a suggestion.

Dunkettle give me a break. It’s not that bad the N25 underneath moves perfectly the roundabout itself has traffic lights of course but nothing worse than it’s made out to be. Afew free flowing slips added on all lefts will greatly ease congestion. Even putting a cloverleaf interchange would actually bring ever faster traffic hitthing the lee tunnel which will not help in the long run.

Dunkettle will be terrible soon.

Once the Kinsale Road flyover is done, that traffic will jam the tunnel.
Add the 700 houses at Glanmire in a few years.
Add the impact of the North Ring.

This roundabout will soon be known as the Red Cow of the South. Everyones underestimating just how bad it will be.

I remember reading an article in the local rag about 10 years ago about plans to upgrade Newlands Cross. Since then, traffic volumes have got much worse and this infamous junction remains virtually the same.