Interconnector aka DART underground

@pippin101 wrote:

What exactly is the above? It’s surely not the PP for Interconnector proper, as this isn’t being lodged until September I believe?

It’s the initial application An Bord Pleanala to determine if the interconnector is or is not Strategic Infrastructure and ipso facto can apply for pp undr the SI Act ( in case you hadn’t noticed missarchi doesn’t really ‘do’ context, and comes more from the enigmatic wing of archiposters;))

I wonder is this project going to be funded by this new scheme?

Pension funds willing to put €6bn into State projects

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0506/1224245994684.html

The newly extended plan to Inchicore Works is absolutely crazy.
Irish Rail have devised it in a way so that the tunnel opening is in an existing playing field in a residential area. They then intend on selling their land within Inhicore Works and buildining a future surface station. This is all to maximise the value of their land.

This is an absolutely crazy idiotic way to plan a transport network not to mention housing developement (which this land is not currently zoned for).

It is clear that the interconnector should be planned to maximise value for money, and in the public interest, not that of IR. The tunnel opening should be within the Inchicore Works lands, some of which they want to sell so presumable they dont need all 75 acers.

The station should be underground and located to maximise public access which will also deliver the best value for money. This planning needs to happen now as an underground station would need to be built with the tunnel.

There seems to be something corrupt in the process whereby Irish Rail can make a proposal for the development of a major public transport plan and tag on a residential development all in their own interest and not service the public interest. And its absolutely crazy that the RPA would accept such a proposal!

This is planning for the future at it’s worst, the kind of self-serving planning that left Dublin with unceonnected Rail terminals accross the city in the first place.

Stop the madness!

Jimg, whats crazy is that a “private” company, Irish Rail, with a vested interest is the body doing the planning. That is crazy planning.

It is NOT in line with Local Area Plan, Dublin City Development Plan or any other planning.
There is no objective in Transport 21 to support the value of Irish Rail’s land or the development of any new community on it’s lands.
The full details have not yet been published, I believe Irish Rail intend doing this as part of the Railway Order, which is technically published by the RPA.
the portal is in a playing field with is owned by Irish Rail, but not within the works itself as it is used by the community.
It’s not really up to Irish Rail to decide on Land Zoning, thats for the council.

Of course densification has many benefits but it needs to be planned properly, what is the point in having development palns and local government if landowners such as Irish Rail just make up their own plans and ignore them!

Incidentily the Environmental Impact Statement has already been published and there is nothing in it about this extension and the lands in Inchicore works. Nothing mentioned about densification, land rezoning. Presumable this is why the inchicore works station is a ‘future’ station, to try getting around this legality.

There is another strangeness to this, there is actually a station with proper platforms in Inchicore Works already on the Kildare line, but this is not in public use, it is there just to service the yard. This could easily be used today to service the Irish Rail land there already at no cost if it was developed for housing. And if the original plan to have the tunnel opening at Heuston went ahead this station could still be used in the future.

This smells of corruption to me, Irish Rail using the Tranport 21 budget to it’s own gain and not that of the public.

@ac1976 wrote:

Jimg, whats crazy is that a “private” company, Irish Rail, with a vested interest is the body doing the planning. That is crazy planning.

It is NOT in line with Local Area Plan, Dublin City Development Plan or any other planning.
There is no objective in Transport 21 to support the value of Irish Rail’s land or the development of any new community on it’s lands.
The full details have not yet been published, I believe Irish Rail intend doing this as part of the Railway Order, which is technically published by the RPA.
the portal is in a playing field with is owned by Irish Rail, but not within the works itself as it is used by the community.
It’s not really up to Irish Rail to decide on Land Zoning, thats for the council.

Of course densification has many benefits but it needs to be planned properly, what is the point in having development palns and local government if landowners such as Irish Rail just make up their own plans and ignore them!

Incidentily the Environmental Impact Statement has already been published and there is nothing in it about this extension and the lands in Inchicore works. Nothing mentioned about densification, land rezoning. Presumable this is why the inchicore works station is a ‘future’ station, to try getting around this legality.

There is another strangeness to this, there is actually a station with proper platforms in Inchicore Works already on the Kildare line, but this is not in public use, it is there just to service the yard. This could easily be used today to service the Irish Rail land there already at no cost if it was developed for housing. And if the original plan to have the tunnel opening at Heuston went ahead this station could still be used in the future.

This smells of corruption to me, Irish Rail using the Tranport 21 budget to it’s own gain and not that of the public.

on the basis of several deluded premises you post this boring rant.

the word crazed springs to mind.

it is interesting how any crank can come upon a proposal, then without an iota of accurate information, launches off into a paranoid wobbler utterly detached from any reality known to man, aliens, or beast.

Jeez Marmajam, that’s a bit harsh. this is a public forum and this thread is about planning matters. I’m just raising the point that bad and un-transparent planning creats issues that affect all of us. (deluded or not)
If you think it’s boring you dont have to read it and you certainly shouldn’t have bothered yourself to reply if you had nothing posative to contribute. Just stick to Metro North if you will.

I think it’s interesting that people are questioning the details and the information about this project because IR have only given sketchy info and done this orally at local meetings so there is nothing but heresay to go by for now. Which is a pity because we are in the public consultation phase of the project, and it’s difficult to have a proper debate without the details. I do know that the issue of planning on this proposal has been raised with the minister of Environment by elected local reps, and I was just trying to get people talking about this before the plan is finalised and published.

“….that’s a bit harsh. this is a public forum and this thread is about planning matters…it’s difficult to have a proper debate without the details…. I was just trying to get people talking about this before the plan is finalised and published”.

Keep digging ac1976, you might get the tunnel built by yourself! It’s not a bit harsh to accuse IR of corruption or make up nonsense about the project, no? Or to try to subvert the lawful planning process by making representations to the Minister?

The planning process is for detailed examination of proposals, objections, and raising non-existent issues and trying to gain control over someone else’s land…

I getting tired of this. 😡

Can someone, pretty please, with sugar on top, explain to me and to everyone else, what in the name of sanity does that last post have anything got to do with the Interconnector? 😡

Sorry Mods, but I think its time to start doing your jobs. I think ye are getting very lazy of late. Things like this where a post has nothing to do with the topic has to be removed and the poster has to be warned.

Ha. Ahh, missarchi, appreciate the link, even if your posts are impossible to decipher :p
Weehamster, I believe darts will use the tunnel. There is your connection.

Imposing dimension. Sandwich 228, Incongruous?

From Saturday’s Irish Times…

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2009/0704/1224250018875.html

Follow this train of thought

FRANK McDONALD Environment Editor

A quarter of a century after the inauguration of the Dart, the Government is still trying to devise a public-transport solution for the capital, and the next stage could take the Dart underground

It was described in an Irish Times headline as “CIÉ’s new weapon to confound the begrudgers”. And in truth, the Dart did. On the Sunday after it started running between Howth and Bray in July 1984, more people travelled on the new electric trains than on any day since the railway line opened in 1834. There was something symmetrical about the Dart being inaugurated in the year of the 150th anniversary of Ireland’s first railway, the Dublin to Kingstown (Dún Laoghaire) line. And despite criticisms that it only served the “gold coast” around Dublin Bay, it gave the city its first whiff of continental Europe.

For months, Dubliners had been stopped in their tracks by the sight of brand-new, German-built electric trains gliding up and down the line on test runs. They were so different to the old diesel engines, which hauled probably the most obsolete rolling stock on wheels in this part of the world. That the new trains were electric was entirely due to Des O’Malley, then minister for industry and energy, who recognised the importance of not relying so much on imported oil; had it been left to his cabinet colleague, Prof Martin O’Donoghue, all Dublin would have got was a cheap and cheerful set of new diesel trains.

The Dart brand-name was chosen after sifting through numerous alternatives (such as “Bayline”). As Cartan Finegan, then marketing director of CIÉ, said at the time: “Finally, we settled for Dart because it seemed to say everything.” Dart is an acronym for Dublin Area Rapid Transit, which implied that electrifying the Howth-Bray line was merely the first phase of a much more ambitious plan to turn it into a network, with lines serving Tallaght and Blanchardstown via an underground link in the city centre. But that never happened.

When work on the electrification project started in 1980, David Waters, the engineer in charge, took personal responsibility for everything – he never bulldozed the project through, and instead negotiated with residents’ associations and other interest groups on issues such as rebuilding bridges.

There was some controversy about the cost of this EU-funded project, which worked out at £113 million (€143.5 million). Economists such as Seán Barrett of Trinity College thought it was wildly extravagant; like Martin O’Donoghue, they would have preferred to see a simple upgrade of services on the existing line. The most shocking thing was that the Department of Finance purloined £27 million (€34 million) in EU funding for the Dart, leaving CIÉ to borrow money to make up the difference. This saddled the company with repaying both capital and interest on a debt that should never have arisen, and vastly inflated the cost.

Even before the new service was inaugurated on July 24th, 1984, the price of houses along the line was going up; had CIÉ been able to “recapture” some of these gains, it could have repaid the capital outlay over time. The Dart also facilitated major commercial development, contributing to an office-building boom in Blackrock, for example. Land located near the line shot up in value, even in the bleak 1980s. It took a long time before CIÉ cashed in on this upward trend by promoting a major office scheme at Connolly Station, for example.

The company’s plans for a new transportation centre in the middle of town ran into trouble. Since 1976, CIÉ had been acquiring property on both sides of the River Liffey for this mammoth project, which would have incorporated an underground train and bus station topped by an array of office blocks, hotels and shopping malls. An Taisce was first into the breach, calling in January 1986 for a “complete reassessment” of this scheme on the basis that it would destroy the Temple Bar area. Ironically, the emerging “left bank” culture of the area had been unwittingly encouraged by CIÉ’s policy of renting out its buildings on short-term leases.

Liam Skelly, a firebrand Fine Gael TD for Dublin West, was having none of it, however. In late 1986, he claimed to have lined up a Canadian company to develop the proposed transportation centre. But the “Skelly Plan” bit the dust and Temple Bar was later designated as Dublin’s “cultural quarter”.

The plan to extend the Dart to other parts of the city was scuppered in October 1987 by the then Fianna Fáil minority government, led by Charles J Haughey. Not only did it rule out investment in anything other than buses and “diesel-based options” for rail, it also abolished the Dublin Transport Authority, which had been set up just six months earlier.

Eventually, as a result of the Dublin Transportation Initiative in the early 1990s, we were offered the Luas – although the city became the first in the world to build two free-standing light-rail lines. This was the outcome of a cowardly decision in May 1998 by ministers who couldn’t get their heads around the Luas running up and down Dawson Street.

When the Dart service started in 1984, a fleet of 80 carriages carried about 35,000 passengers per day. Government parsimony meant that not a single extra carriage was added during the next 16 years, even though passenger numbers were climbing to 80,000 per day. As a result, overcrowding during peak periods became unbearable.

Since 2001, major improvements have been made. The Dart line was extended to serve both Malahide and Greystones, new rolling stock was bought, real-time passenger information screen have been installed in all stations, platforms have been lengthened to cater for eight-carriage trains, and new stations were opened at Portmarnock and Grand Canal Dock.

Maintenance is poor, however. Dún Laoghaire station is grungy and confusing, despite its new look. Station nameplates are flimsy, their colour scheme a residue of Iarnród Éireann’s orange period; it’s a long way from the original “total design concept”.

The most serious problem is capacity. Due to constraints in and around Connolly Station, only 12 trains per hour can be accommodated on the Loop Line – too few to cater for the 90,000 passengers a day using the Dart and thousands of others on diesel trains.

Now, two decades after being ruled out, a Dart underground line is back on the agenda. This would connect Heuston Station to the Docklands, via Christchurch, St Stephen’s Green and Pearse Station, linking up with both the Tallaght and Sandyford Luas lines as well as the existing Dart line, to give Dublin a rail network.

Last December, the Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey described the proposed rail tunnel as the “most critical piece” of public-transport infrastructure in the State, and pledged that it would proceed, notwithstanding the Government’s yawning budget deficit. The estimate for the “Dart Underground” is €2 billion – considerably less than the still-secret cost of Metro North, which would provide a single, 18km Luas line from Swords to St Stephen’s Green. Given that the CIÉ plan would integrate existing suburban rail services, it seems better suited to serve Dublin’s sprawl than the metro.

What’s not included in the €2 billion estimate, however, is the cost of electrifying lines to Kildare, Maynooth and Drogheda so that trains could use the tunnel; clearly, diesel engines could not be allowed through because of the fumes they emit. The question remains of whether a cash-starved Government will have the stomach to go ahead with this.