Idea for Luas interconnector
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There was a thread a while back about what route, and how the Luas lines could be connected. I’ve been thinking about it, and I think i have come up with a good proposal.
Continuing it on the roads, say down Dawson Street and around college green, would involve changing dozens of bus routes, increase congestion, as cars have to take alternative routes. If the trams shared the road with cars, they would have to content with traffic congestion and a high risk of getting involved in an accident.
The ideal solution would be to bore a hole from Stephen’s Green to O Connoll street. That way the roads would be left alone, and there would be no traffic.
The problem with this solution is the extremely high cost, of boring tunnels.My proposal is a compromise. Run the Luas along the streets, but rather than place them on top of the streets, build them under, through cut and cover tunnels.
This involves basically digging a big trench, where the roads are now, rerouting the underground services, laying down track, and then, rebuilding the road on top of it. The end result being that you couldn’t tell there was anything underneath the road.
This is a much cheaper altenative to boring tunnels. It is how most of the New York Subway, as well as some of the London Underground was built.
Of course there would be major disruption during construction, but this would happen anyway, if it were to be built along roads, but the finished result would be worth it.The best route I can think of is this:
Have the Luas go underground along Harcourt street, before it reaches Stephen’s green. Continue it aling it’s current route, to where it now terminates. An underground station can be built, where the current station is now. Pedestrianise the west side of Stephen’s green.
After stephen’s green, continue the track underground, down grafton street, and around college green.
A second underground station could be built at college green. Have it continue around College street, and along Hawkin street, where it would resurface. Hawkins Street would be closed off to traffic (and hopefully hawkins house demolished).The Luas would cross Burgh Quay, across a new liffey bridge, and down Marlborough Street, where it would join the Red Line at Abbey Street.
Once completed ,this proposal would minimize traffic disruption (Only Hawkins Street and Marlborough Street would be closed).
It would enable the trains to move quickly, through from one end of the city centre to the other.It would link Trinity College to other parts of Dublin easily.
It would provide an expansive new public space beside Stephen’s green. Dandelion and TGI fridays could have outdoor seating. An outdoor Cafe could be built (I’m only beginning to think of the posibilities with this one.)
It would be more expensive and incovenient initially than building the Luas above ground, but would create a lasting piece of infrastructure, that would be appreciated for decades to come.
Any feedback on this suggestion would be greatly appreciated.
The problem with that proposal is that, the metro is alredy going to link Stephen’s Green to O’Connell St. so it wouldn’t make sense for the luas and metro to be underground going to and from the same place with seperate tunnel systems. I would suggest that the metro share it’s underground tracking with the luas for some of it’s city center alignment starting at Harcourt like you suggested. Then at some point, the luas can spur off and use the old Broadstone railway to continue to Liffey junction. This way, the Green line luas is segregated from all traffic in the CC.
Not sure if anyone has seen this yet but it has some interesting drawings of the interconnector route from docklands to Heuston station.
this whole idea is preposterous, why dont they just link the luas green line up with the metro, simply putting the luas underground up harcourt st, and then put the luas red line underground from heuston station like they should have done on day one, build the dart interconnector and call the whole network the dublin metro.
I work for a formwork subcontrator so i think it’s a marvellous idea! 🙂 You won’t get it cheaper than tunnelling. And does your analysis factor in congestion costs, and loss to traders on Grafton Street?
Cut n cover down Garfton street? Craneage, Health & Safety – Deep Open Excavations, 24,000 cubic metres spoil, 8,000 cubic metres concrete, 4,000 cubic metres backfill/pavement surface and all during DCC restricted working hours. :confused:
Sure, it’s possible, but if I was a trader on Grafton Street (the largest rate payers in the city) I would be livid if I heard that was the plan. It just will not happen.
IMO tunnelling is the only sensible option and the Metro line proposed, will link the Red and Green LUAS lines via a station at St. Stephen’s Green and a station at O’Connell Street Bridge
@The Willinator wrote:
I work for a formwork subcontrator so i think it’s a marvellous idea! 🙂 You won’t get it cheaper than tunnelling. And does your analysis factor in congestion costs, and loss to traders on Grafton Street?
Cut n cover down Garfton street? Craneage, Health & Safety – Deep Open Excavations, 24,000 cubic metres spoil, 8,000 cubic metres concrete, 4,000 cubic metres backfill/pavement surface and all during DCC restricted working hours. :confused:
Sure, it’s possible, but if I was a trader on Grafton Street (the largest rate payers in the city) I would be livid if I heard that was the plan. It just will not happen.
IMO tunnelling is the only sensible option and the Metro line proposed, will link the Red and Green LUAS lines via a station at St. Stephen’s Green and a station at O’Connell Street Bridge
Technically there is nothing to stop the Lucan Luas line from using the Metro North tunnel under the liffey. Desending at Dame Street and resurfacing near the Rotundra/Dorset St and head towards Broadstone. The Luas can handle very steep gradients and the cut-and-cover disruption would be minimal. Would provide excellent integration as well. Especially for Dunboyne/Navan rail commuters arriving at Broadstone.
i don’t think that lucan section of the luas line should be built as it’s planned. if you had a properly integrated mass transit system, that lucan line as far as heuston station would be an unnecessary duplication of the interconnector tunnel, if they managed to segregate the luas from the traffic the rest of the way, possibly by utilising the intercity rail line for some of the way, then you would save a lot of money and end up with a metro instead of a luas. they’re all just trains after all.
Its worth remembering that other cities that have a proper metro network often have lines in close proximity to each other and indeed stations that are close or even linked to each other, It makes for a more integrated and successful system.
I agree about the cut and cover method….it would be unacceptable and possibly ruineous to businesses along Gratfon Street. and whats the point when a metro is being installed. At least a Luas at street level allows for incidental travel within the city, eg getting shopppers from Grafton to Henry Street. There seems to be a lot pf prevarication about the BX line though….I wonder if its being squeezed out of the frame.
On the idea of sharing the metro: is this possible. Are trams and trains the same gauge. Would the frequency of metros be impacted by Luas slowing down the network. It does have some merit though. I wonder about the Lucan Luas line however. I always felt it was a sop to Mary Harney when T21 was announced and never really a runner. Still how about developing the line as a spur of the Red Line with an interchange at Heuston linking to the interconnector. It would help to reinforce Heuston as a destination in itself, given all the proposed development for the area.
@StephenC wrote:
Its worth remembering that other cities that have a proper metro network often have lines in close proximity to each other and indeed stations that are close or even linked to each other, It makes for a more integrated and successful system.
I agree about the cut and cover method….it would be unacceptable and possibly ruineous to businesses along Gratfon Street. and whats the point when a metro is being installed. At least a Luas at street level allows for incidental travel within the city, eg getting shopppers from Grafton to Henry Street. There seems to be a lot pf prevarication about the BX line though….I wonder if its being squeezed out of the frame.
On the idea of sharing the metro: is this possible. Are trams and trains the same gauge. Would the frequency of metros be impacted by Luas slowing down the network. It does have some merit though. I wonder about the Lucan Luas line however. I always felt it was a sop to Mary Harney when T21 was announced and never really a runner. Still how about developing the line as a spur of the Red Line with an interchange at Heuston linking to the interconnector. It would help to reinforce Heuston as a destination in itself, given all the proposed development for the area.
Yes it is possible. Fistly the metro will be light rail by definition, secondly the green line trams have a wider gauge than red. as it was origionally intended to up grade the green line to metro standard when the luas was origionaly built
@cgcsb wrote:
secondly the green line trams have a wider gauge than red. as it was origionally intended to up grade the green line to metro standard when the luas was origionaly built
I can’t believe that rumor is STILL going around :rolleyes:
The Gauge on the Green line is exactly the same as the Red Line (ie Standard gauge = 1435mm). The 2 lines were originally designed as a single but the then minister Mary O’Rourke caved into pressure from city centre business to split it up. Standard gauge is used on European metros.
Now you could be getting this slightly mixed up with the fact that the gap between the set of tracks on the Green line is wider than the Red line so it could handle possible wider metro trams than the current Luas trams (as you’ve said).
About Interconnecter for those who dont like the idea, this is designed because the section of track between Connolly and Grand Canal stops (Loop Line) is a bottleneck and needs to be bypassed eventually. So its is not a matter of should be built or not. Its a simple fact of it has to be built to stop the existing DART system to grinding to a halt due to congestion.
I believe that there is infact very little difference between the luas trams and the trains that will be used for the metro, ie they will be the same guage, and the height difference from track to platform will be effectively the same. By implication we can expect that there will be wheel arches prodruding into the interior of the trains, suggesting perhaps a similar internal layout to the luas, as opposed to the more normal (efficient?) layout of linear benches facing each other as in say, london, new yourk etc. Also, in direct reply to blisterman, cut and cover is used extensively in other parts of the metro north route further out from the city centre (as is open trench, surface and overhead tracks), one would expect that the powers that be conducted the necessary investigations and exhaused all options before deciding that the most expensive one, ie boaring tunels, was the way to go. I would imaging the greater complexity of underground services and possible damage to foundations of buildings, especially along grafton st as suggested, were the main engineering factors, the metro north runs 25-30m underground in the city centre and likewise the DART interconnector is about 20m underground through the city centre, one would hope they decided on such depths for good reason.
Engineering excuses aside, further considering the economic damage to grafton st I would expect that tunnels would, in the broader sense be the cheapest option.@cgcsb wrote:
Yes it is possible. Fistly the metro will be light rail by definition, secondly the green line trams have a wider gauge than red. as it was origionally intended to up grade the green line to metro standard when the luas was origionaly built
GASP! 😮
The Luas gauge is the same EVERYWHERE in Dublin. The only difference is the Green Line has stronger bridges etc to allow future conversion to metro which IS ALSO THE SAME GAUGE.
I am not attacking you personally mate as I am not expecting you to be an expert on this stuff. But I cannot get over how long this amazing bit of lazy journalistic guff has managed to survive.
Hell will freeze over, thaw, freeze over again, thaw again, and freeze over again before the RPA gets the OK to go cut and cover down Grafton St. In fact I will eat my hat naked while rollerblading down the new Sandymount/Dollymount highway the day that gets PP.
Ultimately the Luas and Metro are very similar modes and there is nothing in principle to stop both sharing a tunnelled line. Luas green and Metro north could both use the city tunnel, with Luas green branching off at O’Connell to Broadstone. This could be funded by the BX costs.
well that’s the way it’s reported in the media
of course we should also consider elevating it along grafton steet, that way the tracks will also provide shelter for shoppers on rainy days and for homeless people on rainy nights.
that’s the stupidest idea i ever heard
i’m sure it was a joke… jesus!
lol, im sure you’re right but there’s not a great deal to indicate that it is a joke and there are a lot of loons about
@cgcsb wrote:
well that’s the way it’s reported in the media
Well there you go. All Irish journalists who report on rail and transport issues are completely clueless and know almost nothing about what they are talking about.
Seriously, any journalist in 2008 who stills thinks the Luas red and Green lines have the same gauge really should be working in Burger King.
@notjim wrote:
of course we should also consider elevating it along grafton steet, that way the tracks will also provide shelter for shoppers on rainy days and for homeless people on rainy nights.
😀
Would be like the Galleria in Milan except with trams running on the roof. They can hang the Christmas decorations off the tracks and use the luas overhead wires to light the bulbs.
@Cute Panda wrote:
Seriously, any journalist in 2008 who stills thinks the Luas red and Green lines have the same gauge really should be working in Burger King.
I take it you meant the opposite:)
This is the RPA’s plan for the Red/Green Line interconnector.
Suitably, it’s shown as brown on the plan.
@shanekeane wrote:
lol, im sure you’re right but there’s not a great deal to indicate that it is a joke and there are a lot of loons about
I rest your case.
When looking at that map from the RPA I seems obvious to me that the really critical and most contentious part of this link up is the bit around TCD. If Trinity weren’t there then clearly it would just run straight from the bottom of Dawson St, across where Trinity is, straight to the bridge across from Marlborough St. That is actually a pretty short distanct so surely a short tunnel from the bottom of Dawson St to Hawkins House would make a huge amount of sense??
Gaudi
@Gaudi wrote:
When looking at that map from the RPA I seems obvious to me that the really critical and most contentious part of this link up is the bit around TCD. If Trinity weren’t there then clearly it would just run straight from the bottom of Dawson St, across where Trinity is, straight to the bridge across from Marlborough St. That is actually a pretty short distanct so surely a short tunnel from the bottom of Dawson St to Hawkins House would make a huge amount of sense??
Gaudi
Hell will freeze over, thaw, refreeze etc before Trinity will alow any tunnel under the buk of Kells. Due to unstable prehistoric foundations.
I thought about this one myself however there is the small matter of the small river that is culverted and runs down hawkins street as well as the gradient on Dawson Street which would have to drop substantially to facilitate a luas
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