High Specification Shroud Advertising

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  • #707880
    Paul OMahony
    Participant

    Hi all.

    I’m new to this so please be gentle.

    I would like to know if anyone out there has seen high-specification banner advertising taking place in any/all other capital cities around Europe. The concept is known as shrouding, and is used extensively in most large cities in Europe – including every capital city – and is used to temporarily cover or replace the green dust sheets which hang from scaffold when construction work is being carried out at a site. I am very interested to start a debate on this subject on this site to gauge what people’s opinion is on this subject.

    And I want to clarify from the outset, I have been living in the Netherlands for over 4 years and am currently working with a company who specialises in this area. The company I work for has had phenomenal success on the continent at introducing this concept to over 15-cities.

    On the continent the concept is used to raise much needed funding to carry out essential conservation works on buildings, and is also used to create a substantial fund for the city planners to carry out other essential projects in the area of conservation of urban built-architecture. In Amsterdam (UNESCO-World Heritage Site), the concept contributes approximately Euro 500,000 per year as funding to property-owners to carry out conservation works on the facades of their buildings, and contributes a similar figure again to the cities coffers, which is then used for funding other architectural heritage projects.

    I would be really interested to hear anyone’s view on this subject.

    Many thanks.

    PAUL

    #756607
    Lotts
    Participant

    I tend to be opposed to any further imposition of advertising into my environment. But I guess I’m just a crank. One thing to watch out for is that planning permission is normally needed for this type of thing, (but you can often bury it in the original planning app. Down around “all associated signage” might do it).

    #756608
    shadow
    Participant

    There was a wonderful opportunity for an integrated art advertisement for the scaffolding around the statues in O’Connell Street. Instead we have drab boxes of torn scaffolding mesh. When the restoration of the Washington Monument (Obelisk) ion the Mall was being undertaken Michael Graves designed a temporary scaffolding which was illuminated at night, a surrogate monument.

    #756609
    Frank Taylor
    Participant

    Shroud advertising in Ireland is often hung from buildings by companies who know it’s illegal but understand the benefit outweighs the punishment. These ads have become giant symbols of blatant corporate irresponsibility and ineffectual local government.

    This is sad because the legitimate use of ads to cover construction sites is a good thing. Will your company decide to accept business from companies who wish to break the law?

    #756610
    Rockflanders
    Participant

    Saw a great use of it in Florence recently where the facade was recreated on the protective hoarding/banner so that from afar it appeared to be the building itself!

    Advertising is not illegal and it is essentially a third party paying for some of the work. If there is going to be a big hoarding up there may as well be something on it if it is short term. I have a problem with some of the permanent billboards around Dublin though, they distract immensely from the buildings and/or views. One of the most galling IMO is on the railway bridges across the Liffey

    #756611
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    @Rockflanders wrote:

    Saw a great use of it in Florence recently where the facade was recreated on the protective hoarding/banner so that from afar it appeared to be the building itself!

    There is a similar set-up on a building on Regent Street in London at present.

    #756612
    hutton
    Participant

    I actually had this/ very similar idea about 10 years ago. Nobody else was doing it at the time. However I went down the road of seeing whether the green mesh then in sole use would be suitable to take paint or dye. Unfortunately this was not possible, and neither was it possible to patent such a system, as it comes in under method of relaying info as opposed to being an actual invention. Being relatively young at that time, regretfully I didn’t have the necessary resources to take it any further. Of course since then other players identified other suitable mesh/ screening material etc, probably made a mint, and the stuff has become ubiquitous – so bring out the violins for me!

    I think its great way to communicate – provided it is limited strictly to scaffolding on active sites. Councils need to be rigorous about this, and not permit the type of crap that Eircom got up to on Stephens Green during that sell off. Wonder was there any enforcement there… 😉

    Shadow you are spot on –

    shadow wrote:
    There was a wonderful opportunity for an integrated art advertisement for the scaffolding around the statues in O’Connell Street. Instead we have drab boxes of torn scaffolding mesh. QUOTE]

    Lotts – “I tend to be opposed to any further imposition of advertising into my environment. But I guess I’m just a . One thing to watch out for is that planning permission is normally needed for this type of thing, (but you can often bury it in the original planning app. Down around “all associated signage” might do it).”

    Tut tut very cynical! I think you’ll find the real offenders are the speculator-dereliction developers such as at Lombard Street (See https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=3765&highlight=townsend
    ) or the 18th C house by the bridge along the quays near Ushers (?) Island. THEYRE the BAD GUYS!

    H.

    #756613
    munsterman
    Participant

    didn’t they cover a gap on O’Connell Street with a replica image of the facade of Dr. Quirkeys? I think it’s still there.

    #756614
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    That’s right. Not sure if it is still there or not. I personally think Dr Quirkey’s looks bad enough without putting up a facsimile of it! 🙂

    #756615
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Agreed and there is a rift opening up on the Fingal CoCo offices side of it making it entirely obvious that it is a banner and not a building from a very long distance. The ridiculous aspect of this is that Richard Quirke now has retention on a large advertising structure on the Main Street in Dublin. 🙁

    #756616
    Paul OMahony
    Participant

    Hi everyone,

    and thanks for all your comments. I’m now going to try to answer a few of the issues concerns which have been brought up. My company specialises in co-operating with city councils in order to introduce scaffold-shrouding in an organised structured and limited fashion. We only place shrouding on scaffolding and we only place shrouding using a permit system which is tightly controlled by the city planners. Also, we only produce shrouds to the very highest possible visual standards – and all shrouds must be properly placed within a speciallially measured and fitted framework.

    In terms of the buildings which these shrouds are put on, they are only permitted on buildings which have been identified with the aid of the city council planners and which would benefit greatly from a serious injection of funding to carry out conservation works on them.

    (I) my company has approached all of the city councils here in Dublin and have proposed a number of different buildings which we feel would be highly appropriate and would benefit greatly from the kind of funding that this concept can create. In most cases, we have been told that the Senior Planners are not interested. We have invited senior planners to come and visit any of the 15 other cities which we have introduced our concept of ‘building-conservation sponsorship’, where we will introduce them to other city planners who have for the last 5 years seen the benefit of introducing this concept to their cities. Any perceived difficulties or questions regarding the concept could at this point be answered. To date, all city planners have declined, or have not even answered our offer.

    There was a fantastic opportunity to sponsor the conservation costs of cleaning the statues in Dublin city, and this proposal was made to the city 4-months before any cleaning work commenced on the statues. We believe that approximately, Euro 100,000 could have been raised by A-Class Advertising firms who are used to the concept of high-specification shroud advertising and who would have been very happy to use these A-Class locations as a very temporary advertising opportunity.
    Please remember, the shrouding goes on the scaffold, not on the monument themselves.

    Our offer to raise this kind of money to carry out these works, was also declined by the city.

    I have very strong opinions on the matter of having a filthy dirty Dr.Quirky’s shroud hanging on O’Connell street – but it is probably best not to draw me out on this subject, I was hoping to have a relaxing evening.

    We have made every effort to introduce this concept to Ireland in an open, honest and socially beneficial manner, and to date to say that we are being ignored would be an understatement.

    As an outdoor advertising company we are completely against long-tem advertising of any form. Outdoor advertisng by its very nature must be very temporary (3-months max), must be of the very highest standard possible so that the general public like it, and must only be put on building sites (not derelict sites, as it is far to easy for the this definition to be abused).

    I personnally strongly believe in high specification shroud-advertising, and this does not include any of the rubbish banners which are currently being placed all over Dublin city without any permission from the planning authorities. What seems to surprise a lot of people when I tell them is that I am also a lover of buildings and built-architecture – I strongly believe, and I have seen it work very successfully in other cities – that this concept has the potential to do a really graet amount of good for our cities’ built-architecture.

    Does anyone have any tips on how to convince Irish Planners that there is some really great ideas and concepts happening in other great cities which need to be investigated…..and as a city planner it is essential to keep abreast of what new developments are happening in other cities.

    #756617
    Paul OMahony
    Participant

    Oh and absolutely abhore billboards in Dublin…they are placed anywhere and everywhere with seemingly no controls. Also by there very nature poster boards and billboards should not be allowed anymore in cities – their advetisements are made from paper, so as soon as it rains the posters fall apart and leave litter everywhere…..they’re a disaster

    Unfortunately, outdoor advertising has a very bad name because of this kind of thing…however this should not mean that new ideas and new concepts should thus be always ignored

    #756618
    Paul OMahony
    Participant

    One final answer to one of the above questions…..no my company will not do any business with any company that wants to put up a banner advertisement illegally. We have spent 10-months trying to convince senior planners in Ireland that shroud advertising can be a good thing if properly introduced. To date we have gotten nowhere. During this time we have not done any shroud-advertising business in Ireland – this despite the fact that shabby banners continue to go up on buildings all over Dublin on a regular basis.

    My company has begun to focus its energy on UK where shroud-advertising is permitted under British Planning law. We are currently talking with Brighton city council, in using our concept to help pay for essential conservation works to be carried out on the Brighton Pavilion.

    I can’t help but feel that a great opportunity has been lost in Dublin due to lack of interest.

    Has anyone any good advise on how to progress this ? We strongly feel that if we are given the right opportunityto present our case to the right people (in Govt./ or elsewhere) that common sense will pull through on this matter.

    Many thanks

    PAUL O’MAHONY

    ,

    #756619
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Paul,

    the unfortunate reality is that in the absence of regulation unscrupulous building owners and banner manufacturers are bringing the entire sector into disripute. I have no objection to a comprehensive examination of the sector and the definition of very strict criteria. There is a school of thought that International experience suggests that shrouds as you call them can be appropriate in very limited circumstances.

    It is something that you will have look at very closely before making another move, my advice would be consult the Planning and development act 2000 in particular Sections 56 to 60 and sections 81 through 86. Also the City Development plan sections 10.2.3. & 10.2.4 which are available here:

    https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=2087&page=55&pp=25

    If you could convince people that you have mitigated their concerns, I would favour that the revenues derived
    by DCC or a temporary rates levy would be used to chase down the many illegal permanent signs that go up every month. It is like a game of musical chairs with five year old signs being moved to new locations and the original locations being upgraded to illuminated signs. All for the benefit of foreign companies. I might consider a share purchase and a visit to an AGM one of these days.

    #756620
    GrahamH
    Participant

    Personally I have never seen the difference between temporary and permanent. Either I can see it or I can’t.
    I don’t feel any better about a Vodafone banner plastered across a building because it won’t be there in three months time.
    Either it is there or it isn’t.

    #756621
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    @Paul O’Mahony wrote:

    There was a fantastic opportunity to sponsor the conservation costs of cleaning the statues in Dublin city, and this proposal was made to the city 4-months before any cleaning work commenced on the statues. We believe that approximately, Euro 100,000 could have been raised by A-Class Advertising firms who are used to the concept of high-specification shroud advertising and who would have been very happy to use these A-Class locations as a very temporary advertising opportunity.
    Please remember, the shrouding goes on the scaffold, not on the monument themselves.

    Paul O’Mahony,

    I am personally quite glad that the Council decided against putting advertising around the statues during cleaning. I don’t think I am against your concept with regards to other buildings, although I am still thinking it through. I was glad that the council opted to put information regarding the various statues on the hoarding instead, and think they deserve credit for doing so.

    I realise that it is only temporary, but that is not really the point. If the CC are presently trying to remove large scale advertising from O’Connell Street they need to demonstrate this by leading by example. By placing advertising around some of the most iconically important features of the street they would have been completely contradicting themselves.

    Finally, I think we all realise that the shroud goes on the scaffold as opposed to the statue itself!

    #756622
    Paul OMahony
    Participant

    Thanks guys once again for your comments and your guidance.

    I am personnally very happy that the Council – at last – seems to be taking a more active role re.removal of the terrible examples of advertising and shop facade advertising that surround the O’Connell street area. I think we have to ask ourselves the question how on earth a lot of this advertising was permitted in the first place. As you know, the Council has recently designated a large area of inner city Dublin either a ‘conservation area’ or an ‘architectural conservation area’. This designation means that the Council now has far reaching powers to rectify what it sees as obvious breaches of planning rules re.architectural developments.

    Whilst in theory, I fully agree with what the Council is doing with this designation, I also believe it is imperitive that the Council fully informs itself in relation to planning developemtents from other cities/countries. I am not saying that what is good for another city should be good enough for us here….what I am saying is that it is imperitive that the planners investigate this subject. Without equipping itself with full knowledge on any area of development it is not possible for a Planning Department to make a any sensible decisions.

    All of our city councils have in their possession a listing of hundreds of derelict-sites, or properties with which there is no ownership papers for. It is usually, these very same properties which show us the worst cases of examples of billboards, 48-sheets, 96-sheets, posters etc. We need to ask ourselves the question why ? The reason that it is normally council sites which are covered in posters and billboards is because by offering a licenece to use these sites the Council is creating a significant revenue itself. Tenders are usually made out for these sites by city councils, with only one very large international outdoor advertising company in a position to win this tender. Because it is only possible to win this tender if you are an exceptionally large outdoor advertising company with very deep pockets, smaller advertising companies never get a look in. This is the reason that there is so many comapnies so quick to abuse the system.

    I can understand people’s dislike of outdoor advertising. You may find it difficult to believe but 95% of the outdoor advertising I see around me everyday I believe to be a disgrace…..but this does not mean that all forms of outdoor advertsing should be banned. There is room in our cities for outdoor advertsing but it has to be severely regulated, by well-informed planners – and it should only be allowed if it is done to the highest possible standard.

    I believe that high-spec shroud advertising done to the standards that can be seen in many other cities in Europe can breath life, fun, and energy into areas of our cities which hitherto were dark ugly places. If the shrouds also add funding to help restore the building it is placed against then in my view the social benefit of having shrouds far outweighs the negative effects.

    #756623
    Paul OMahony
    Participant

    Mr.Thomond Park.

    Thanks for your comments and advice…..I think that a share purchase on this one would be a very good investment….you may have to wait though….it may take me another while yet….you could say at this point that they have worn me down but I’m not going away. As you can probably tell I am a very strong believer in this concept…it does work, it is working elsewhere, and there is no reason why it should not work here. The fact that planning decisions in Ireland sometimes seem to be moreoften based on emotions rather than on common sense is changing in Ireland. Having recently returned to Ireland from living abroad for a number of years, I strongly feel a change in Irish people and the way they perceive things. Young Irish people today are demanding change. This applies to the way that planning decisions are being made as well as everything else. I believe that our senior planners are at last beginning to think outside of the box on a number of very important subjects…to date the changes have been tentative but this will quickly change in the months ahead as it becomes clear to our planners that sometimes taking a risk on something different is worth it.

    I would like to believe that our planners will investigate all potential new ideas that have the potential to increase people’s enjoyment of our cities…..

    ….I just haven’t figured out a way to convince the planners that they really need to further invetigate this one.

    Now is the right time…..it is simply a challenege of getting to sit in front of the right people to have my case heard in an open fair, and transparent manner.

    …in other cities when we completed our first ‘building-conservation project’ we paid a company to carry out an on-the-street survey of people’s opinions on what we were doing. The results were astonishing. In Amsterdam, 89% of the people questionned said that they thought our building shrouds were beautifula nd added in a positive way to the street landscape. This figure rose to 95% when the respondents were told that by having the shoud there it was helping to pay for the conservation works to be carried out on the building…

    .

    I will convince the powers that-be that this concept makes perfect sense.

    #756624
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Paul,

    you had your opportunity like everyone else to get the decision makers ears during 2004 to make a written submission when the development plan was being made. Your option is simple enough and can be taken on a case by case basis, you may apply for planning permission with land owners consent. I can see certain situations where you may get permission but beyond that in the absence of regulatory changes I wouldn’t hold my breath. Re: Share purchase and AGM attendance I was referring to the existing billboard companies, their disrespect for the system that ties the average compliant person and company up in red tape and humbles us all is offensive in the extreme.

    #756625
    Frank Taylor
    Participant

    Have you managed to get a face to face meeting with any planners? I understand that you are entitled to at least this much. You need to listen to their concerns and address them. As I’m sure you know, the sales-cycle is often longer than expected for a new product. You could also try the dept of the environment and its minister.

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