Government-by-numbers
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- April 17, 2005 at 12:30 am #752813
Anonymous
Inactive@JPD wrote:
As usual more scare tactics, it might be a problem,
It is a problem and the fact that urban renewal tax incentives are still in place in towns all across Ireland 10 years into the biggest economic boom ever to be seen proves this. One off housing is in direct competition with urban Ireland and constitutes unfair competition as the urban taxpayer is subsidising it through higher local authority costs on services and infrastructure.
@JPD wrote:
there might be extra traffic, ?
You can’t walk 3 miles to the town every time you want something and you certainly can’t walk 30 miles to work and another 30 back after work.
@JPD wrote:
there might be a few that are not pleasing to the eye. ?
60% of the housing in the West of Ireland are one-offs (DoHLG annual housing statistics 2004) of which less than 5% are designed by a fully accredited architect, some of these 500 sq m + houses have the lowest design quality in the OECD.
@JPD wrote:
Are there any reasons not to build in the country that can actually be proven?
All of the above and the decline in tourist visitor numbers, UK down, France Down, Germany Down, Italy Down
Any more questions?
Dock Roche will be on the Political Partytommorow or today Sunday at 430 to defend his guidelines he will be faced by a well known environmental broadcaster who has as yet not made any comment. I am very interested to see what she has to say. 🙂
April 17, 2005 at 11:13 am #752814Anonymous
Inactive@Published SBP DR Edward Walsh wrote:
http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqid=4051-qqqx=1.asp
Vision needed now to develop West
17 April 2005 By Dr Edward Walsh
Despite the bad press Limerick has received recently, its people have come up with initiatives that have proven to be of profound national importance.In 1959, Brendan O’Regan convinced Sean Lemass to define a special tax-free zone at Shannon where concepts to attract overseas investment could be tested. The resultant pro-enterprise policies formed the foundation upon which Ireland’s current economic success is based.
The two remarkable O’Malley ministers, Donagh and Des, were similarly driven and took unexpected initiatives that profoundly reshaped Irish education and politics.
Donagh, without doubt the most flamboyant minister who ever entered Leinster House, surprised his departmental officials in education and astonished his cabinet colleagues when he went public without their knowledge or approval and announced free secondary education, as well as the school-bus infrastructure to support it.
If that were not enough, he then went on to plan and introduce the regional technical college system.
Unlike ministers before or after him, he cut through the waffle and procrastination of the Department of Education.
Without his panache and courage, years of reviews and consultations would have rolled by and Ireland would have failed to provide the skilled workforce required to implement the emerging new industrialisation policies.
In 1968, Donagh died in his prime in the middle of an election campaign, but he had already outlined his thoughts on a new kind of university for Limerick.
The NIHE, which evolved into the University of Limerick, disrupted Ireland’s cosy university system from the outset.
When it opened in 1972 – despite derision from many in the Irish academic community – it introduced modular degrees, semesters, continuous assessment, inter-disciplinary study and work placement.
It also contributed to the academic philosophy that insisted universities could be excellent while also being relevant to the development needs of the community.
This radical initiative was the bait that attracted Ireland’s first silicon-chip manufacturer, Analog Devices, to Limerick.
Degree programmes were adjusted to meet its needs, and the first graduates formed its core staff.
Analog Devices was Ireland’s first truly high-tech venture. Its resounding success gave convincing evidence of Ireland’s capabilities and gave confidence to an increasing stream of advanced manufacturing companies and later, global leaders such as Intel, Microsoft and Dell.
The academics in Limerick built bridges to the enterprise community and believed that an important part of their mission was to stimulate Ireland’s economic and social development.
In partnership with Shannon Development and with help from Denmark and the US, Ireland’s first innovation centre and science park, now the National Technological Park, were built as an extension of the Limerick campus.
But all of this innovation is in the past and the old industrial policies that built Ireland’s current prosperity and technological know-how can not be relied upon to sustain us in the decades ahead. Things are changing as the knowledge-driven economy takes hold.
Already regional centres are alarmed at the rate at which long-established, but labour-intensive manufacturing enterprise is closing up and moving abroad, unable to cope with Ireland’s labour costs and burdensome emerging regulation.
There is also a recognition that, unlike the older-generation manufacturing plant that could locate almost anywhere in Ireland, most new knowledge-intensive enterprises seek the infrastructure of a large city.
It tends to gravitate to centres of scale that can offer sophisticated legal and financial services, a range of universities, advanced research laboratories, essential telecommunications and the essential range of air services.
Ireland’s regional cities are small when compared with Dublin and have difficulty in competing to attract the most sophisticated knowledge-driven enterprise.
Awareness is growing in the Limerick-Galway corridor that now is the time to do something about the problem.
The only realistic solution is a move towards inter-urban clustering in order to offer the scale neither city can in itself provide.
In Britain, the advantages of urban clustering has been recognised for some time.
A string of cities along the M62 in the north of England are now being brought together to form the Northern Way in order to compete with London as a major northern counterpole.
The cities stretch from coast to coast, from Liverpool to Hull, and have been interlinked with a backbone of sophisticated communications, upgraded motorways and a high-speed rail network, to coalesce into a megalopolis of 15 million people.
Quality of life is given focus.
Infrastructure, education, health and cultural amenities are being upgraded in a planned way, so that as an interlinked group they can compete with London as they have failed to do individually.
The prospect of urban clustering in Ireland and creating a counterpole to Dublin appears to be an option whose time has come.
Already the private sector has led the way and 270 high-tech enterprises along the Galway, Ennis, Shannon, Limerick corridor have come together to collaborate and establish the Atlantic technology corridor.
The Atlantic corridor concept can be built upon to provide Ireland with a vision that will be strong enough to capture the imagination and make things of great consequence happen.
It will need the kind of commitment from government provided by Lemass and his colleagues 45 years ago, when he courageously drew a line around a tract of land to form the Shannon Zone, introduced legislation and permitted those within it to blitz ahead.
It is encouraging that government is so strongly committed to correcting Ireland’s regional imbalance.
Having addressed general regional growth issues through the spatial strategy and other initiatives, it is clear that a focal-point of national significant is now required to catch the imagination, maintain momentum and make significant things happen.
Plans for the development of the Galway-Limerick corridor offer the prospect of an initiative with focus and panache that is potentially as exciting and challenging for Ireland as the multi-media super corridor is for Malaysia or the Northern Way is for Britain.
But if the project is to succeed it requires the wholehearted commitment of government in partnership with the two key cities.
It must have scale and intensity and it must be planned to the best international standards.
The goal should be the creation of a counterpole of sufficient scale and sophistication that is as attractive to knowledge-driven enterprises, as Dublin is.
Also, it can be designed to offer a superb quality of life, something that’s not always possible in Dublin.
With planning norms to international standards, existing towns and villages within the corridor should expect to grow so that vernacular architecture and their fragile nature are respected.
Many new towns and villages should emerge along the corridor with stringent design criteria to ensure harmony with the Irish countryside.
A certain amount of one-off housing should be permitted provided that this is built discretely and concealed from the roadside behind newplantations of native Irish trees.
Ireland needs a pilot zone where planning concepts can be tested with the goal of creating conditions for living and working that are far superior to those evolving at random and now oozing from the outskirts of cities, towns and villages.
At this juncture in its physical development insipid Ireland needs a new national visionary undertaking of international scale and challenge, one that catches the national imagination and provide the kind of solutions for working and living that currently escape us.
The Atlantic corridor, approached in the right way, offers this prospect.
Dr Edward M Walsh is president emeritus, University of Limerick
It is amazing what a balanced approach can come up with especially from one who managed to stay within the University community
April 17, 2005 at 1:59 pm #752815JPD
Participant@Thomond Park wrote:
It is a problem and the fact that urban renewal tax incentives are still in place in towns all across Ireland 10 years into the biggest economic boom ever to be seen proves this. One off housing is in direct competition with urban Ireland and constitutes unfair competition as the urban taxpayer is subsidising it through higher local authority costs on services and infrastructure.
You can’t walk 3 miles to the town every time you want something and you certainly can’t walk 30 miles to work and another 30 back after work.
60% of the housing in the West of Ireland are one-offs (DoHLG annual housing statistics 2004) of which less than 5% are designed by a fully accredited architect, some of these 500 sq m + houses have the lowest design quality in the OECD.
All of the above and the decline in tourist visitor numbers, UK down, France Down, Germany Down, Italy Down
Any more questions?
Dock Roche will be on the Political Partytommorow or today Sunday at 430 to defend his guidelines he will be faced by a well known environmental broadcaster who has as yet not made any comment. I am very interested to see what she has to say. 🙂
Enough of your nonsense Thomond we can’t all live in a park; Dick Roche will set the record straight today on TV3 and will very clearly show why this is GOOD FOR IRELAND
April 17, 2005 at 2:04 pm #752816JPD
ParticipantHave your say http://www.rte.ie/comments/comments.html
April 17, 2005 at 6:01 pm #752817JPD
ParticipantDick Roche was right this is for the good of Ireland and the woman couldn’t lay anything on him despite having the benefit of the presenter as well. The thing with the septic tanks is a myth
April 17, 2005 at 6:36 pm #752818Anonymous
InactiveJPD I think you must have been watching a very different programme as Roche fully admitted that most septic tanks in Ireland are not functioning due to the use of domestic disinfectants, admitted that no inspections on septic tanks were being carried out and that water quality was in crisis for the past 15 years. He also stated on the record that water-quality would be solved as of the 22nd of this month which is a remark that he very well could regret.
The most telling remark by the Minister of the discussion was that these regulations were not an attempt to change the criteria for determining planning applications; they were simply aimed at giving clarity as to who is entitled to apply for planning permission in rural areas and to communicate this to practicing local authority planners.
Therefore these regulations merely constitute a charter as to who the planners will give pre-planning consultation to, so the situation is unchanged in that the planners must still determine every application on its compliance with the development plan. With both scenic landscapes listed in most plans and an outright ban on ribbon development it will be very easy to talk to a planner but virtually impossible to secure a rural planning permission unless you are a genuine farmer who’s son/daughter wants to build very close to the existing farmhouse and/or outbuildings.
April 17, 2005 at 7:03 pm #752819GrahamH
ParticipantI find this whole ‘who has a right to live on the land’ debate deeply unsavoury. How is it now that those who have a link to the land simply by Daddy being a farmer, yet they work in Intel and their wife in the local town, has a greater right to live in rural areas?
Every case should be judged on its own merits, with the single exception being for those who work the land, essentially those that need to be there. Otherwise every case should be considered individually.
If the current logic were to be extended to urban areas, prices for housing in the capital would fall through the floor as those who weren’t from Dublin could not buy a house there.As for the ‘debate’ this afternoon – what a pity it got bogged down (excuse the pun) in an arguement about putting Domestos down the pan. Even so, this raises a fundamental question: if the efficent septic tank technology in use elsewhere in Europe was to be used here, along with inspections and ‘desludging’ legislation etc – what’s AT’s position then on one-off housing?
It’s all very well to talk about the current state of affairs, and yes of course they should be concerned about the onslaught of problems that current one-off building practice brings, but in an ideal world of wastewater treatment what then about one-off housing?
It is an important point considering the majority of the public debate on the issue revolves around this very point, even if it doesn’t in policy documents – but on the public level it is the central hinge of the whole issue.
If one applies the ideals of wastwater treatment to every house built, the public face, I emphasise the public face of AT’s debate fall flat on its face.April 17, 2005 at 7:22 pm #752820Anonymous
InactiveGraham on a short show like the Political Party there is a slot of less than 10 minutes and while facing someone as verbose as Dick Roche a position is always going to become bogged down as he never lets anyone speak un-interupted and he takes 30-40 seconds to get out what should be a 5 second reply.
Getting the absolute ban on ribbon development and protecting scenic areas eliminated 95% of one off housing applications because very few of the sites where permissions were being granted are large enough to accomodate a dwelling that has a spatial relationship to another dwelling whilst being a sufficient distance from the road not to constitute ribbon development.
The An Taisce argument as given from various media reports centres on Four Strands:
1. Sustainability which through the absolute ban on ribbon development eliminates most one-off developments that are car dependent as any applicant would require a regularly shaped site of at least 10 acres to not constitute ribbon development.
2. Preservation of scenic locations where permissions are to be granted only in very exceptional cases, so that point in the AT submission was taken on board although an outright ban would have been better, particularly in sensitive coastal and upland areas.
3. Efficiency of local government, this point is one that is not just made by AT but was very well quantified by Eamon Gilmore when he displayed that local charges have increased by 16 times the rate of inflation since 2000. If the ESB is ever privatised I can see rural dwellers requiring insurance on the last mile of cable.
4. Water quality, I don’t think the fact that 28% of wells in Ireland being contaminated by the run-off from septic tanks can be ignored, would this be tolerated anywhere else? Roche was nailed here and his evasive style cannot get him away from the fact that this is a major problem as experienced not just by rural dwellers but also by many residents in Carlow Town who are currently boiling water to make it safe.
April 17, 2005 at 7:58 pm #752821GrahamH
ParticipantAgreed that those are the four tenets of AT’s policy – although the first one also encompassing the much broader issue of settlement patterns etc.
It is unfortunate that the full side of the story is not delivered on the few brief occasions that AT have the opportunity to air their views – notably the three other issues other than the water quality aspect.Roche is indeed verbose, grandiloquent I’d say :), and he certainly has honed the art of the flowery time-wasting introduction down to a tee (though I must admit to liking him on a personal level). But all the more reason for his opposing counterparts to be concise and direct in their responses, or more to the point, in the adgendas they set for him to respond to.
That is, the three/four other equally important parts of the debate that don’t get the coverage they deserve.Eanna NÃ Lamhna did well though considering the short time available – her popularity with housewives cannot be underestimated in worth 🙂
April 17, 2005 at 8:18 pm #752822Anonymous
Inactive@Graham Hickey wrote:
grandiloquent
Only about Tayto wrappers and septic tanks 😀
You are right it would be better if you could get all four accross but as you have descibed the obstacle in one word above it is agreed.
The good thing is that Minister Roche is on record stating that the regulations are only a guideline as to who can apply, I doubt AT have much argument with his assertion that the regulations will have no impact on the decision making process. So as it doesn’t affect their work in terms of still commenting on planning applications Eanna did very well to get Minister Roche to accept that existing septic tanks are doing damage and that nothing is currently being done about it beyond a circular letter.
Minister Roche has also confirmed that ribbon development is completely banned at the behest of the NRA and AT, also that scenic areas are to be preserved at determination of applications. Eanna also got a commitment that the paper on water quality would be ready for the EU commision in less than a week.
I think all in all she got a lot more by concentrating on the one outstanding issue of water quality and getting commitments as opposed to touching on themes that can be dealt with in written submissions. 😀
April 17, 2005 at 9:52 pm #752823JPD
ParticipantSo what you are saying is that it will be easier to apply but more difficult to get permission. I am not sure if I believe that but if fewer planning permissions are given in rural areas there will be hell to pay for Fianna Fail. I can see a few more Marian Harkins springing up right along the west.
April 17, 2005 at 10:23 pm #752824Devin
Participant@bloke wrote:
This is where the anti Rural development groups fail….
To encourage people into villages & towns something more than the current model of the housing estate is required – and until a working model is in place the pro rural development people will remain just that.This is where the pro-Bungalow groups fail; – they describe people who would like to see clustered rural housing, good design and rural public transport as “anti Rural Developmentâ€.
April 18, 2005 at 9:55 am #752825Anonymous
Inactive@Graham Hickey wrote:
If the current logic were to be extended to urban areas, prices for housing in the capital would fall through the floor as those who weren’t from Dublin could not buy a house there.
About time. Dublin for Dubliners only. 😀
April 18, 2005 at 1:22 pm #752826shadow
ParticipantCloser to Boston than Berlin. Coming soon the great suburban expansion west with a new stadium surrounded by car parking (abbotstown), strip malls and outer suburban networks. The spatial strategy is completely in tatters. Living next to your family is one ting but if you are not in a position to contribute to the local economy and cultural life of that environment (because you are absent) then there is not much point. After the Gold rush hundreds of towns were abandoned. The reason why the US has such a responsive economy is due to the mobility of the workforce that follow the opportunities rather than stay regardless in the place they were born and raised. The desire for this mobility and responsiveness runs counter to the crossroads model that we think will emerge as a consequence of the pollination of the countryside with bungalows.
April 18, 2005 at 1:26 pm #752827Mob79
Participant@JPD wrote:
As usual more scare tactics, it might be a problem, there might be extra traffic, there might be a few that are not pleasing to the eye. Are there any reasons not to build in the country that can actually be proven?
They don’t attract development, it’s the towns with a population base that attract business etc and then all the countryside feeds off this, they contribute nothing.
Does that answer it simply enough??
You’re starting to annoy me, “all you D4 people” blah blah blah
@JPD wrote:It seems that you city folks do not understand rural life, all that people want is a job, a family and a house. There is little demand for complicated facilities. I don’t get the constant attacks on water as ALL THESE HOUSES HAVE SEPTIC TANKS THAT ARE APPROVED BY THE COUNTY COUNCILS. I think it is just begrugery that some people have to pay less for a house than you do.
Sorry but i want alot more in life than a job and a house, don’t speak on my behalf as a “country person”, maybe you should check out what’s out there to be experienced.
@JPD wrote:All you Dublin 4 types keep saying is they look ugly to your vision of the Countryside and that bins can be collected cheaper from the Streets of Dublin 4. As for roads have any of you left the main roads in some Counties? You could dissapear into some of the craters I have seen.
What’s making these craters????, trucks trundelling up and down the road constantly spreading debris and muck everywhere (there’s no point in wainting walls anymore) coming to and fro the newest disgusting tasteless mansion being thrown up by some yahoo with more money than taste!!!!,
overuse from every car in a 10 mile area driving into town where threre job is!!!
You can’t walk or cycle in some places now, i felt safer cycling around dublin city centre when i lived there, eejits tearing around country roads.
Don’t you realise the alternatives, even look to original settlement patterns, ringforts etc led on to clochans, not dispersed living, if designed properly rural living could be so much more pleasent if you could cluster houses tastefully, services could be provided cheaper and you would have all the benefits of having close neighbours while also having privacy if designed properly (ie not a housing estate and not 5 mansions with 1 acre lawns stapled together)
I think the answers are in improving the standards of housing developments in villages, steering away from housing estates towards more individual and intesting buildings with character, whatever happened to side streets and alleyways, and also encouraging new forms and models of clochans in the countryside, imaginatively designed to provide people with a great quality of life that doesn’t put stress on our resources and that could be added onto with new building. Maybe councils should look into this and team up with architects planners etc and develop modern models of living around older concepts.Just checked on google there, by clochan i mean a traditional gathering of houses, farmhouses in the past, not a circular dry stone house.
April 18, 2005 at 1:57 pm #752828jimg
ParticipantOut of interest, JPD, have you ever seen other patterns of rural development, for example in the purely agricultural areas of France? I mention France because it’s probably the most pro-rural country in Europe and they fiercely promote rural development. Funnily enough, they don’t have endless bungalows and mock-georgian mansions dotted along every roadside miles from any village. Nearly all development happens in towns, villages and hamlets.
I’d doubt you’d be interested in anything like that though. I get the impression that promoting the interests of rural Ireland and trying to work out how to improve the country comes second in your list of interests compared to whipping yourself into a lather of indignation at your imagined oppression of “country people” by “Dublin 4 types”.
April 18, 2005 at 2:33 pm #752829Anonymous
InactiveAs ever, David McWilliams has hit the nail on the head (and not whilst constructing a one off house 😀 )
http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=DAVID%20McWilliams-qqqs=commentandanalysis-qqqid=4057-qqqx=1.aspApril 18, 2005 at 3:05 pm #752830Mob79
ParticipantSomething humorous i noticed recently was a photo in a free local rag of the 10 pages advertising : 2 pages news variety shoved through the letterbox. The photo was in an article about illegal dumping, something which has to be tackled, but this particular photo was of a couch in a ditch of a forestry road, the caption read “not so suite for the tourists” geddit, baddum chhhh. What about the thousands of huge crass vulgar houses on every hilltop in the area, i’d imagine an illegally dumped couch pales in comparison.
April 18, 2005 at 4:27 pm #752831-Donnacha-
ParticipantDevin wrote:This is where the pro-Bungalow groups fail]This is where An Taisce fail Public Relations 101. They flip flop and say they are pro good quality rural design, and hum and haw about water quality – when in fact they simply want an end put to development in rural areas.
April 18, 2005 at 8:40 pm #752832GrahamH
ParticipantExcellent article as ususal by McWilliams as posted by Ewan – this just about sums it up:
“Minister Dick Roche has been bullied and he has bowed to political pester power in the same way as a jaded mother buys peace at home with a Kit Kat, knowing well that the rapid ingestion of sugar will only lead to a short-term kick that will soon wear off.
The decision on one-off housing will cost us a fortune in the years ahead.”
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