Government-by-numbers
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Thats interesting about the wills but back to the issue, none of you have proven why rural paople shouldn’t be allowed build houses in rural areas. All you Dublin 4 types keep saying is they look ugly to your vision of the Countryside and that bins can be collected cheaper from the Streets of Dublin 4. As for roads have any of you left the main roads in some Counties? You could dissapear into some of the craters I have seen.
all our one-offers could be sailing around in their wind generated-electricity powered cars…
You mean the wind turbines that the same one-offers will refuse to have in their neighbourhood because it will spoil the view 🙁
Culchies want it every way, They want one off houses with the same level of service provision as a city and they want someone else to pay for it. Doesn’t work that way lads and lassies. In the short term, you may get away with it, long term, urban dwellers will revolt.Actually we have enough houses. Firstly a high proportion of the housing stock is second homes (holiday etc.) Secondly they are in the wrong place. The issue here is not the production of houses but why they are separated from work. The problem arises when you place considerable distances between the two. If you want the “garden city” ideal of suburbia (for bringing up children in a better environment although the research indicates the truth is somewhat different) then you need a sophisticated suburban rail network, (eg SE England).
@Bob Dole wrote:
Hi Thomond Park,
Off the point, but I’d just like to correct you about “perpetuity”.
What you are referring to is called the “Rule against Perpetuities”, a rule which applies to gifts in wills to prevent them from being handed out at ridiculously far away times in the future – e.g. I give it to the first man to fly to the other side of the galaxy. Originally it was designed so a man who didn’t like his son giving his property to his grandson – even if that grandson wasn’t born. .To be honest Bob I was talking about lease law and not wills, alienation is generally dealt with under different sections of a lease, it is a particular lease definition that surfaced in the late 1970’s was extremely common in both the months of June 1981 and November 1982, and then totally disappeared that I was referring to. Its construction was given to circumvent the statute of limitations insofar as was possible given that leases then were generally 35 years in duration and generally related to a particular class of tenant. Who interestingly enough is now back in the market although this market has now moved location or should I say locations in the 50+ quantity?
As for the arguments advanced by the pro rural brigade, it never ceases to amaze me how much denial this group practices, Ewan you have sumarised it far better than I ever could, certain minority interests in the Country want it every way; they want to decimate the towns so they can have urban blight that requires urban renewal incentives that can only be fixed with holiday homes/section 23 apartments and then want to build large suburban style villas with the profits.
This strategy amounts to nothing other than a wealth transfer from urban dwellers to a very small bunch of people who heretofore have conned the media.
@JPD wrote:
Thats interesting about the wills but back to the issue, none of you have proven why rural paople shouldn’t be allowed build houses in rural areas. All you Dublin 4 types keep saying is they look ugly to your vision of the Countryside and that bins can be collected cheaper from the Streets of Dublin 4. As for roads have any of you left the main roads in some Counties? You could dissapear into some of the craters I have seen.
How about living in a village rather than open countryside? Is Ballydehob just that bit too urban?
One approach to one-off housing development would be to allow it but only on the basis that the owner paid the true increased costs for all services provided.
There is also an issue of fairness: if rural people should always be allowed to build in their areas then why not Dublin 4 people? Most young people from the area of Dublin I grew up in can’t afford to live there and have moved out to places like Lucan. Shouldn’t they be allowed to build a house with more storeys and a smaller garden on their parents’ suburban plot? I think they should, but planning rules state that this type of development would not be in keeping with the scale and form of the rows of stumpy bungalows built there in the 60’s.
I’m not so sure if fairness comes into it, I think all of this comes down to proper planning and sustainable development in each individual case. Planners are not family judges making decisions on the basis of being equitable, they are in fact practictioners of a technical profession that aims to advise on the suitability of a given plot of land to absorb a particular development in the same way that structural engineers advise on load bearing capacity.
You are right on the issue of Dublin 4 bungalows as often not being suitable locations the development of a second family house, however every once in a while someone acquires five or six of them and is able to carry out a development for a higher number of units, which is fine because they have good public transport, water, waste water, existing waste services, telecoms, esb etc. All of which cost money not just to put in but to service particularly when storms hit
Do we not have enough of them meddling Brussells bureaucrats as it is. Why should we listen to them that has already concreted all over their own places?
Quaint green little Ireland won’t put food on the table.
JDP do you think that this legislation is going to prevent Ireland from becoming concreted over?
You keep speaking as if the only alternative to rural housing is living in cities ?
There are thousands of small towns across Ireland that can accommodate this type of growth and the social and cultural advantages of living in towns proximity to neighbours, schools and services and transport far outweigh the benifits of car dependant sub-suburbanisation of rural Ireland.
I do agree however that people at the moment will want to build in the countryside and should not be ‘forced’ into towns and cities ….at the moment there are no real alternatives……….If proper neighbourhoods are built in these towns rather than developer estates then they should have the power to attract people.
If we take the example of the Fingal County Offices (not sure if it was the first) as a piece of architecture that started a wave of competitions and commissions for new county offices around the country. People saw the benifits of good design.
We need to take this example and apply it in the design of a new neighbouroods or a complete new town/city then people can see the benifits of such, and it may just rescue rural ireland. Is any local authority or planning department in Ireland willing to do such a thing…..ie create an urban design (rather than a 5 year development plan) for its area looking foward to 2030 or 2050 then bring the developers in as partners in the realisation of this urban plan.
This is the only way to realise sustainable urban development and provide a real alternative to one off housing.
none of you have proven why rural paople shouldn’t be allowed build houses in rural areas. All you Dublin 4 types…
Could you stop trying to argue using stereotypes please? My background is not Dublin 4 – it’s more like that of the author of this piece. That piece for me “proves” why ribbon development shouldn’t be allowed, whether by rural people, urban people, villagers or holiday home owners. This piece also demolishes your attempt to present this as an issue of rural people being “downpressed by the man” as the author is definitely NOT a “Dublin 4 type”.
The reality of the situation is revealed here:
The rationale is here:
http://www.mattosullivan.com/ought/ought.htmThe product is here:
http://www.mattosullivan.com/ought/osites.htmI almost left out the product in transit
Shiver…
But an arguement that is also put across is that if people do move into villages and small towns, all they’ll be living in is suburban estates tacked onto the side of them – perhaps not as alienated as the vast estates we see at the moment, but still harshly urban (for people who want to live with even a degree of rural ambience), poorly designed and developer driven…
@DaM wrote:
……..I do agree however that people at the moment will want to build in the countryside and should not be ‘forced’ into towns and cities ….at the moment there are no real alternatives……….If proper neighbourhoods are built in these towns rather than developer estates then they should have the power to attract people. ……..
This is where the anti Rural development groups fail. From a rural dwellers viewpoint, the only available alternative to living in the country is a 1000sq.ft. “Townhouse” amongst a jungle of 400 identical “townhouses”.
To encourage people into villages & towns something more than the current model of the housing estate is required – and until a working model is in place the pro rural development people will remain just that.how many people have actually read the publication? It obviously hasn’t reached Limerick anyway….
Would answer a lot of the sensationalist statements.
Disabled application refusal: Meath – in the last 6 months.
@Rockflanders wrote:
how many people have actually read the publication? It obviously hasn’t reached Limerick anyway….
Would answer a lot of the sensationalist statements.
Disabled application refusal: Meath – in the last 6 months.
I have read it and believe me there are sections of it that are absolutely dreadful, it is the greatest attempt to return to the pre-63 situation yet by any past or present Fianna Fail administration. It is also a total botch job on their part as lay man to the built environment Roche allowed more than a few clauses through that will come back to haunt the bungalow brigade, in fact despite the political intention and sales speil it appears that it will actually be harder to build in rural locations with some of the clauses that have been inserted. As someone else pointed out planners are technical professionals not social workers and they do generally follow the regulations quite closely in making determinations.
God help Ireland if Dick Roche knew anything about the built environment
Planners may be technical but it is up to politicians to give the people what they want once they pay their taxes like most people do and you do expect something in return for your taxes don’t you? Just like all the facilities you describe in the heart of Dublin 4, why shouldn’t country people have the right to a home escpecially when they even provide their own transport, water through group water schemes that they pay for and didn’t you know rural customers of the ESB pay more than the people in the cities.
Fair enough JDP people have the right to expect all of the above, a House (even though Ireland is one of the few countries that does not have this right enshrined in its constitution) water, and electricity.
However it is now 2005 and you would expect that standards might strech be a little further than the basics. I am talking about the social and cultural benifits associated with urban living. A choice of schools, librarys, museums, civic spaces that act as meeting points and centre of the community eg markets, event spaces, shopping, entertainment and leisure facilities such as cinemas and good year round sports facilities. Social spaces bars nightclubs, performance arts venues and a choice of restaurants. The choice to walk, cycle or drive or use public transport to the above and to your workplace so they are accessible to all. Daycare facilities for your children, playgrounds and parks, easy access to healthcare facilities and a university or IT …..start-up buisness spaces ……..a small town will not be able to provide all of the above but it should provide some and a good transport link to the rest.
When towns and cities start to provide the above in a coherent and civic manner then peoples perceptions about urban life will soon start to change.
You would think that Ireland as a country that has developed so late that we would look to the mistakes of others and try a different approach ……..however we seem to be making a real mess of it all by ourselves.
@DaM wrote:
Fair enough JDP people have the right to expect all of the above, a House (even though Ireland is one of the few countries that does not have this right enshrined in its constitution) water, and electricity.
However it is now 2005 and you would expect that standards might strech be a little further than the basics. .
Dam I agree with the spirit and broad thrust of your very well made points but in regard to the basics of basic homes for the disspossessed,you must look at the average size of these applications. Typically they range between 180-650 sq m with the average proposal being 240 sq m with a seperate garage of 65 sq m with additional loft space.
@DaM wrote:
I am talking about the social and cultural benifits associated with urban living. A choice of schools, librarys, museums, civic spaces that act as meeting points and centre of the community eg markets, event spaces, shopping, entertainment and leisure facilities such as cinemas and good year round sports facilities. Social spaces bars nightclubs, performance arts venues and a choice of restaurants. The choice to walk, cycle or drive or use public transport to the above and to your workplace so they are accessible to all. Daycare facilities for your children, playgrounds and parks, easy access to healthcare facilities and a university or IT …..start-up buisness spaces ……..a small town will not be able to provide all of the above but it should provide some and a good transport link to the rest. .
I totally agree there is an immense loss of quality of life by cutting yourself off from much of the social progress delivered over the past 50 years.
@DaM wrote:
When towns and cities start to provide the above in a coherent and civic manner then peoples perceptions about urban life will soon start to change.
You would think that Ireland as a country that has developed so late that we would look to the mistakes of others and try a different approach ……..however we seem to be making a real mess of it all by ourselves.
Until the water quality fines kick in, it is like the person who buys an apartment and then realises that they have a service charge to pay, the same will apply to deficient septic tanks except the fines will be 10,000 plus per breach at the minimum. Lough Corrib is in crisis with urban generated run off and these guidelines will only excerbate the problem, not to mention the Headford Road Roundabout.
@Thomond Park wrote:
Dam I agree with the spirit and broad thrust of your very well made points but in regard to the basics of basic homes for the disspossessed,you must look at the average size of these applications. Typically they range between 180-650 sq m with the average proposal being 240 sq m with a seperate garage of 65 sq m with additional loft space.
I totally agree there is an immense loss of quality of life by cutting yourself off from much of the social progress delivered over the past 50 years.
Until the water quality fines kick in, it is like the person who buys an apartment and then realises that they have a service charge to pay, the same will apply to deficient septic tanks except the fines will be 10,000 plus per breach at the minimum. Lough Corrib is in crisis with urban generated run off and these guidelines will only excerbate the problem, not to mention the Headford Road Roundabout.
It seems that you city folks do not understand rural life, all that people want is a job, a family and a house. There is little demand for complicated facilities. I don’t get the constant attacks on water as ALL THESE HOUSES HAVE SEPTIC TANKS THAT ARE APPROVED BY THE COUNTY COUNCILS. I think it is just begrugery that some people have to pay less for a house than you do.
@JPD wrote:
It seems that you city folks do not understand rural life, all that people want is a job, a family and a house. There is little demand for complicated facilities. I don’t get the constant attacks on water as ALL THESE HOUSES HAVE SEPTIC TANKS THAT ARE APPROVED BY THE COUNTY COUNCILS. I think it is just begrugery that some people have to pay less for a house than you do.
the fact that the council approves it doesn’t negate it’s possible negative impact on the environment.
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