Fair Play to Starbucks

Any pics?.

I quite like the seating area outside Habitat with those anally pruned shrubs.

Has anyone had a coffee sitting on College Gr. yet? Just wondering what the ‘buzz’ is like, bit of a busy spot with the traffic.

Good point, Garethace. I can see that area being spontaneously colonised for ‘tables & chairs’ in the summertime, like the way other little spots around the city have; – the mouth of the laneway at the top of Sth. William Street between the pub and the café, and lately, the recessed space opposite The Bakery in Temple Bar west end.

And Foster Place is already very continental, with the trees, setts and classical buildings. And it wouldn’t lose the sun after 2pm like the Italian Quarter does. Could be the start of something…

Would be great if it set the ball rolling in that area alright. The large volume of traffic in the area is quite an obstacle though.

how could you hear yourself think with all the traffic buzzing around? i like to go where it is quiet for a coffee. such a place would be off grafton street.

It wouldn’t be so bad if you were tucked away in Fosters Pl.

If only they were able to make drinkable coffee.

I think you hit the nail on the head, garethace, when you said Foster Place was “a small urban space with real potential”- which is why it can’t be compared to, say, Quartier Bloom (or whatever it’s called), which was created from nothing. Also, I disagree about the quality of the latter- you mightn’t like it, but the bums-on-seats every time I pass through there would suggest it is one of the more successful recent attempts at designing an outdoor space from scratch.

In Foster Place, the setts were in place, the trees were in place, the buildings were in place, even the planning application for change of use to cafe-restaurant was in place, all before Starbucks arrived, so I don’t think they are as deserving of praise as you seem to think. This is not to take away from the quality, but I’d think the quality is nothing to do with Starbucks and everything to do with the place itself, i.e. all the necessary constituents were present and all Starbucks had to do was start serving. So I disagree with your assertion that we “‘cannot yet do’ urban space”. It’s very clear to me that we already did it, though I’d agree that this is one of the few exceptions.

Also, I was a fan of the street (as many others on this forum were) long before Starbucks opened your eyes to its greatness, and I do think that something of its former quality has been lost in such a transformation. I know we can’t have both a quiet oasis and a bustling coffee corner, but I mention this as an illustration that there is more than one way to enjoy an urban space.

PS You say “We have nothing like a course to train young urban designers.” There is in fact a masters in Urban Design in UCD, not to mention a focus on UD in the UCD MRUP course. I can’t speak for other colleges, but even one example suffices here.

But we didn’t ‘do’ this urban space – the last significant thing to happen to Foster Place was the closing of the A.I.B.

Treasury only sought a change of permission to cafe use in May of this year so that Starbucks could access this site – after having had restaurant permission for the site for 2 years previous to that – permission that no Irish entity availed of or sought a change to.

There’s a venti difference between having an ability to do something and actually getting off your arse and doing it.

Starbucks got Treasury off their posterior.

If by ‘do’ you mean package, privatise and commodify, then you’re spot on.

But Foster Place was a place of urban distinction and beauty for me long before Starbucks – or Treasury, for that matter – came along. Parhaps Starbucks did galvanise Treasury, but that’s not to say that either party is responsible for the quality of the urban realm in this location.

@garethace wrote:

I will get them don’t worry,

Or anyone else feel free to post up a pic or two.

But It just struck me this evening how obvious the point is – right in college green, where you just can’t ignore it. We need to pull up our socks,… big time.

Brian O’ Hanlon.

Not really that obvious IMO. That’s the beauty of Fosters. You could walk right past it without blinking an eye.

So it this area controlled by the council or BOI? The rape by the tacsaí’s would suggest that it’s a council plot.

Who resides in this building here?

Ideally, this building would be a restaurant/bar, providing outdoorsy seating. Starbucks is on the corner and would probably want to keep all their seating close to their own premises.

Wouldn’t that balcony there be a lovely place to have a meal? Of course, you’d have to clamber out them windows first!

ps. If anyone’s been down Fosters on a Saturday night, you will see that the place is no more than a public toilet and spliff smoking area. Perhaps it should be closed of at night to prevent this sort of ASB.

I’m pretty sure that’s the former AIB building that adhoc refers to- it has a grand double-height hall with a coved, barrel-vaulted ceiling that would make a fine restaurant.
Also, I’m pretty sure it’s DCC rather than BoI that is responsible here, as you guess. Despite appearances, it’s still a public street.
Can’t say I agree that it should be closed off. More city centre public toilets would answer the call of nature, and partaking of a spliff (however illegal) I would hardly categorise as anti-social behaviour. It might go hand in hand with asb in some cases, but it’s neither a cause nor an example of it. Increased activity levels would prevent both of these from happening- I’ve thought that the AIB should be a hotel for some time now, which would be one answer.

Indeed indeed.

If it were to be converted to a Restaraunt/Bar, there would be less of this carry on in Foster. The problem now is that Foster is a relativley dead area. A pretty-faced dead-end street in Dublin City. Too pretty for the skags, but dead enough for toilet duty and such.

Starbucks won’t change this. Forster needs a mini action plan by the council. I’d say action plans right now are far down the list of things to be done.

What we really need to know is who is in charge of the building above? Must go down there some day and read the bronze platter attached to the door. The owners of this building shall dictate the future of Foster.

Unless the council budge in, which is unlikely, Foster will remain a dormont beauty for many years to come.

Howley Harrington’s revised Temple Bar plan included mention of Foster Place. As far as I remember, there was talk of opening it up to plug into the rest of TB, but just how this would be achieved is unclear to me. All of the buildings are of merit and part of the charm of FP is its enclosed nature- I’d be cautious about any measure that diluted this characteristic.

The document might be available on the DCC website, or maybe on HH’s own site?

Ach, Temple Bar has nothing to do with FP. FP is in a league of its own.

While O’Connell St is getting much attention these days, I guess we’ll have to wait until the College Gr./Westmorland rejuvenation plan gets going. To me, this will be far more exciting than O’C’s rejuvenation plan.

@ctesiphon wrote:

I think you hit the nail on the head, garethace, when you said Foster Place was “a small urban space with real potential”- which is why it can’t be compared to, say, Quartier Bloom (or whatever it’s called), which was created from nothing. Also, I disagree about the quality of the latter- you mightn’t like it, but the bums-on-seats every time I pass through there would suggest it is one of the more successful recent attempts at designing an outdoor space from scratch.

In Foster Place, the setts were in place, the trees were in place, the buildings were in place, even the planning application for change of use to cafe-restaurant was in place, all before Starbucks arrived, so I don’t think they are as deserving of praise as you seem to think. .

CTESiphon you are spot on – summed up my thoughts exactly, which I did not have the time to type in earlier.

However just to open up a separate flank, what say about the idea that “Foster Place” be renamed “Grattan Place”? John Foster, after whom I believe the place was named was a miserable misadministrator, whose bigoted & sectarian views were repulsive, and who along with John Fitzgibbon and John Beresford helped mismanage the country during 1790s to a point where it was goaded into rebellion. It is an irony that Foster opposed the Act of Union in case it led to emancipation for persons other than members of the Established Church.

Would it not be better that the names of Foster, Beresford and Fitzgibbon be simply left in the history books, marked along with their deeds, rather than having streets left named after them as if they were honourable sorts?

So what about then, “Grattan Place” rather than “Foster Place”?

😀

I’ve often thought that Foster Place had a certain ring to it, but I wasn’t aware of the activity of Mr Foster. Certainly changes things. Would that mean that Foster Avenue in Mount Merrion is also named after him?
Having said that, I’m not often in favour of airbrushing history, though there might be a case here.

It could always revert to the name it had before FP- Turnstile Alley? How’s that for prosaic? 🙂
Or something to do with one of the architects involved on the Parliament/BoI? I don’t think Edward Lovett Pearce is commemorated anywhere in the city, which is a great shame.

I think that Trinity College now own th former AIB Building mentioned above. In fact tey have taken over a couple of properties on this street (for the School of Nursing if Im not mistaken).
The Howley Harrington Plan for Temple Bar did metion Foster Place and argued for an Arcade link through to Fleet Street from College Green though this might have been from the Westmoreland Street entrance. As you might be aware the actually Parliament Building is in fact a large screen hiding a collection of buildings behind it so a bit of configuration might allow greater movemnet through without necessarily compromising the BoI.

As for a new use for Foster Place. Definately. Its criminally underused and is of poor value at the moment if nobody ever sees it. I would disagree with it being seen as quiet oasis in the city. I’d say few people go down there…even for a bit of peace. A qiuet oasis should be an escape from traffic…of wheich there is plenty on College Green. A framework plan for area is urgently needed to unlock its potential. You can already see the pressure that Habitat is having on the pavement outside as more people fight for a limited space. And plans are afoot to open a second store in the EBS premises beside Habitat.

@ctesiphon wrote:

It could always revert to the name it had before FP- Turnstile Alley? How’s that for prosaic? 🙂
Or something to do with one of the architects involved on the Parliament/BoI? I don’t think Edward Lovett Pearce is commemorated anywhere in the city, which is a great shame.

Turnstile Alley? Thats wonderful! But then again given the activities of Castlereagh and the 30800 pounds that was used as bribes to secure the Act of Union, perhaps “Turncoat Alley” might be even more appropriate 😀

Ah but in all seriousness, I think you might be right about commorating Edward Lovett Pearce. Given the rate of exaltation that a certain US fast food/ beverage outlet is getting, I can just see how it would be particularly appropriate, with a little motto:

“Pearce Place – I Lovett”

😀 😀 😀

Great little thread about a great little street, a street which I must admit I have never even walked down and I’m born and bred in Dublin! I always assumed it was private, somehow belonging to the BoI. That ex AIB is a wonderful building, just crying out to be used. This little gem of a street should not be connected to TB. The fact it’s a cul de sac is part of its charm.

The Wesrmoreland St/College Green redevelopment will be very interesting. I really hope Luas line A is chosen and private motor vehicles are excorcised from this axis, along with O’Connell St/Bridge. The whole area would make a magnificent pedestrian plaza with Foster Place being a little shaded haen in the summer and a cosy enclosed space in winter, imagine those trees outside the ex AIB building as a bar/restaurant all decorated in twinkly xmas lights, lovely.

It’s actually surprisingly quiet- even half way down Foster Pl. It is well worth a wander down, a little gem.One of the gaffs looks like it might be a private residence too! Have often wondered why BOI keep so many banking functions in operation from their entrance onto the place( I have picked up deliveries round there on numerous occasions), The Temple Bar plan alluded to above involved opening the enormous wooden door on the Westmoreland St. facade of the BOI and doing away with the bank’s rear offices and delivery yard as far as I can recall..

I drank outside on Fosters place yesterday. Coffee, I mean, from starbucks. Shagging cold it was, but the seats were mostly empty which will not be the case in Summer. It was dark and Fosters place and the BOI was gorgeous. Great urban experience.

( Unlike the interior of SB which is too bright and too crowded. And I am not a detractor of Starbucks, I liked it when I lived in the US).

Fosters place would be a good place for a london style subway enterance.

@asdasd wrote:

Great urban experience.

What, drinking & shagging?

lol – wouldn’t be surprise me though as it seems to be rather hot and steamy in there at the minute, completely jammers the three occasions I’ve passed at different times of the past two days. No one seems to want to go outside – suppose it is November…

It’s not as anything spectacular has been done here now – think this thread is getting everyone’s hopes up 🙂
They have only chucked a couple of tables and chairs out onto a concrete pavement after all:

Should be a delight to sit here during the summer in the dappled sun piercing through the plane trees, though you’d have to ask, why doesn’t the City Council install public seating here instead for the public to enjoy Foster Place, rather than preserve the area for the exclusive benefit of the customers of a retail outlet? If people want to bring their coffee out onto these seats then so be it?

The real, secret reason 🙂 everyone likes Foster Place is because it feels like London, not Dublin. The architecture is very much so that of London, as is the intimate historic atmosphere that is very rare in Dublin today; suppose the Castle Upper Yard would be one of the few other areas that still has this.
Imagine living in one of the two townhouses here – surely the most desirable residences in Dublin?!

Both of them were up for sale a few weeks ago.

The only problem with ‘developing’ or ‘expoiting this underutilised area’ is that this will spoil the very essence of the place – it is perfect as it is: quiet, secluded and largely unknown. Though the way Bank of Ireland dominate the space as if they own it with security cameras and delivery trucks needs to change alright. You always feel you shouldn’t be there, and are being watched…

@asdasd wrote:

I drank outside on Fosters place yesterday. .

How did you find the level of traffic? And those taxis, were they not a little annoying?

The taxis are a bit annoying, but not overwhelmingly so. The place to sit is where the girl in the read coat is sitting. Away from Dame street traffic.

Ah, some pics!

It’s been a while since I was down Foster. I had it in my head the the Starbucks building was a quality corner structure.

Now, the lower facade isn’t to bad. If only they’d used the same render on the upper floors, I think it would look much better.

Not to dis your photos, Graham, but the place looks pretty cold and miserable, which it is.

I’m going to take a trip down there myself tomorrow to see what the story is, shall return with pics.

Well it’s going to be

shagging cold

and miserable tomorrow too, so it ain’t gonna look much better 🙂

Always liked the corner building there, strangly decent and sympathetic to the BoI for what seems to be a 70s? building.

Though compared with what used to be there – sob 🙁

Absolutely criminal. Lost in the 70s for whatever pathetic reason. 😡 ARGHH

@Morlan wrote:

Now, the lower facade isn’t to bad. If only they’d used the same render on the upper floors, I think it would look much better.

The ‘render’ on the ground floor is in fact stone, the same stone as was used in the BoI and channelled in the same manner.
Agreed though that as a 70s ‘infill’ it’s one of the best in the city.

I never knew that the pair in the corner was for sale recently. (Not that I’d have been in a position… 🙁 ) It’s been an ambition to call one of them home for a long time now. I wonder do they need a caretaker…?

I don’t think Foster Place should be linked into Temple Bar whatsoever – it’s a charming little street, why spoil it by linking it into our “British Stag Night containment unit”. Trtust me the malignancy of chain restaurants and theme bars would soon creep in.

The old AIB would make a fantastic high end restaurant, but it wouldn’t take off if it was tarred with the Temple Bar brush

Another plus for Foster’s Place as a public space is that it has a genuine historic stone sett surface (you can partly see it there in one of Graham’s photos) – the setts are tightly laid and comfortable to walk on, like you would find for example in a French city – whereas the sett surfaces in Temple Bar, which mostly date from the early ’90s, are not well laid and not very comfortable to walk on.

Indeed – a fine solid surface that adds such charm to the place:

The granite kerbs around the bases of the trees are a nice touch.

Wonder if the tunnel to Daly’s Club still runs underneath…

Yes, that’s nice. You can really see the quality there. It’s a gorgeous surface! The few genuine sett surfaces that survive around the city need to be jealously guarded!

Temple Bar is a sham! Here is a typical FOUL stone sett surface in Temple Bar:

Can any ulity company dig up Foster Place or does the laid surface have some kind of protection?

I often see road works in Temple Bar but as the coblestones were so badly laid, often the contractor conducting the works does a better job in reinstating them. However the situation in Foster Place is completly different that Temple Bar.

Hey..!!! Where am I ……!
Before anybody starts trying to prod DCC into action regarding Foster and Allen Place How about the Members of this Forum,well…the CONCERNED one`s at any rate,meeting up at Starbuck`s tooled up with Stanley Knives or Sharp Scissors.
The reason for the Tools…….?
After a suitably convened Emergency General Meeting the group would divide Commando Stylle (Draughty I know!) and set about Removing the Large Signs which remain tied to Lamp Standards and Poles throughout the City.
These warn of O Connell St Being CLOSED between 1630 and 1900 or somesuch on SUNDAY the Twenty FECKIN Seventh of NOVEMBER !!!!
Now anybody who was in Town on that day will probably want all memories of it repressed but some effort needs to be made to Get the City back on track.
The Official DCC line,I fear,is to leave the Signs up (Facing AWAY from traffic) until the Gregorian Calendar once again aligns with Sunday being the 27th of November and the Chrisamas Lights needin to be lit an all…….!
So c`mon who will be first up to the ockey on this one……..Owen Keegan and John Fitzgerald are reputed to have made a block booking for the Starbucks Al Fresco Tables so don`t get left behind boys n girls..!!!!! Snip Snip 😮

Maybe we could replace those sodium bulbs on O’C Bridge lamps too 😡

Great Idea…..More Bang for your buck….so to speak ?

Loved Foster Place

That AIB which I think Trinity want to turn into an office for students to deal with the college, was my bank branch. Always picked my banks on grounds of architectural impression, and loved going down there to deposit chequees.

I would like one of these please.too cstephion….
http://www.irish-architecture.com/buildings_ireland/dublin/southcity/college_green/foster_place/houses_lge.html

@Paul Clerkin wrote:

I would like one of these please.too cstephion….

If I get lucky on the Lotto I’ll be opening one of them up as a B&B, with one room reserved for free stays for archiseek members.:)

Devin et al-
Agreed about the setts. Though not visible in any of the pics above, there are some lovely details such as the way the setts frame the utility hatches in the ground. The metal covers aren’t just randomly rammed in; the setts are arranged in very decorative ways. an attention to detail rarely seen in the city any more.

Yes, was looking at these drains etc – do they therefore suggest the cobbles are not in their original state given these had to be installed?

I hate those institutional florescent tubes underneath the porch of the AIB. Horrible things.

It depends what ‘original’ means – it does seem that cobbles/setts have to have been in place for a considerable period of time to get that smooth look where they look like they are almost knitted together. There are actually a few patches on Foster Place (one outside Starbucks) which have been lifted and re-laid, and have that lumpy bumpy Temple Bar-sett look 🙁 .
Those nicely laid areas around the drains were probably done a few decades ago at least.

Richards,
in my experience of the protection measures for Dublin’s historic street and paving materials, there wouldn’t be any conservation consultation process for utilities companies or anyone else requiring to dig up the street, even though Foster Place’s setts are listed for protection in the Development Plan. The street has probably just survived in a good state because there are few services running under it (because it’s just a short cul de sac).

Quoting Garethace…
I am all for keeping car access to Foster’s place. They manage to do it in many of the best European cities. But there seems to be something about ‘how’ the taxi driving occupation evolved in Dublin city, and similarly the bus transportation system evolved, that seems to be about dragging places down. Making them into the lowest common denominator – for some strange reason, people who drive vehicles around our cities seem to have pure contempt for their urban environment. You can see this similarly in suburban villages and areas, where if there is a video store or laundrette alongside a road, it is free-for-all for anyone in a mini-van with two kids to use the footpath as a parking lot. I understand the climate is bad, peoples’ lives are hectic and keeping kids in your sight is paramount. But something tells me there is more to peoples behaviour and lack of respect for urban places, when they are sitting behind the wheel of a n automobile.
Perhaps the best example of this is now to be found in the village of Ranelagh.
Raneleagh is to me the epitomy of what a Dublin “Village” should be all about.
Prior to the return of Rail Travel to the village it had managed to retain it`s Butcher,Baker,Candlestickmaker essence to which could be added Mororcycle Shop,Homebrewery,Landromat and resident Justice Minister :rolleyes:
While the village had always in modernity struggled with its geographical position vis a vis the Motor car,it had nonetheless kept a vestige of a true Village athmosphere.
The arrival of Luas brought with it a reinvigoration and an expansion of ranelagh`s potential to become a really impressive Human Centred working Dublin Village.
However to progress that would have required some Interested and Focused input from the various bodies which form our Local and National Governing Elite.
The lack of any cohesive welcoming plan for Luas has instead turned Ranelagh into something like a Paradise Lost .
Here we have a cohesive social Village Structure complete with a strong resedential culture encompassing a huge social mix from Unemployed Local Authority tenants through transient provincials and multi-cultural non-nationals allthe way up to Ministers of an tOireachtas and ex Professional Footballers turned Radio Personalities.
With the opening of the Luas Green line This huge broadband of Modern Dublin Society now had all of the ingredients for a really attractive model of Modern Urban Living FREE of the OPPRESSIVE REQUIREMENT TO BE CAR FOCUSED AT ALL TIMES.
Well….thats what was so nearly within our grasp……and our Professional Planners threw it to the winds as they abjectly failed to take the new Ranelagh and Integrate it with its new Luas delivered salvation.
The Village now had two LRT stations and Four Bus routes including the radial 18 route ALL of which should have been the focus,in Transport Terms,for mass movement into and out of the Village,with the private car being relegated to a much reduced role WITHIN the area from Charemont St Bridge to Marlborough Road on the East/West axis and Leeson Park to Mountpleasant Ave on the North/South axis.
The area enclosed by that boundary,essentially the village would have benefited greatly from the halving of on-street car parking combined with the widening of the Kerbs in the Village itself and us of the former “Triangle” ( Now sitting there unused and mute testimony to a City Administration unable to deal with heaven sent micro opportunities,but full of desires for Multi-Billion madcap schemes).
Presently a Bus Journey through Ranelagh is almost Biblical in essence as one attempts to thread ones camel through a needle whose eye is virtually blocked with cars,vans,trucks all abandoned on or close to every inch of vacant kerbspace.
Instead of TRYING to move forward with a new and eminently achievable Public Transport centred vision what we have is Bus Atha Cliath REDUCING one of its main trunk routes the 48A and now looking at ways and means of rationalizing the other main through route the 11.
Part of the rationale behind this it is thought comes from a Luas inspired downturn in Passenger Numbers,however I precieve that downturn as being more due to the lack of any structured Bus Priority measures along the South Side of the 11 route and even less on the poor old 18.
This lack of infrastructural support has led to journey times which are completely unsustainable by any rational minded customer,most of whom go off and buy a moped,bicycle or car…immediately adding to the misery of the Real Ranelagh.
As I read of Ministers Cullen and Calelley and their grand visions for the spending of €34 BILLION on magnificent underground Railway Stations worthy of the Imperial Tsar,yet see the same pair sitting on so much unfinished business within their own office administrations then I become afraid…really afraid of just what these lads are going to conjure up for us,especially as an Election is in the offing (Probably the very worst scenario to be Planning anything in socio-architectural terms).
If the Ministers were to allocate me a budget of €1.5 Million I believe I could devise and impliment some small-scale trafic and Public Transport centred measures which would reduce the Number 11 south side journey time by approximately 5 mins per bus journey at peak and perhaps more off peak allowing for an increased frequency throughout the day and into the night (A Must for a truly useable Village scenario)
Mind you my plan would greatly inconvience those who “Stick her up on the kerb” and nip in for a Paper-Single-Kebab-Pizza etc BUT we have to Make some choices here if the Village ethos is to be meaningfully retained and expanded….
As Capn Picard might say….Make it So…!!!!! 🙂

[nazi]

Mr. Smart. Would it be possible for you to put spaces between your paragraphs? I find it very difficult to read.

Sorry for the gripe. I really want to read your comments but I find it a pain to do so. It’s not just that post, but a few of your previous posts too.

[/nazi]

Starbucks always finds the best place to locate all over the world so don’t feel bad. Locating a coffee shop at a busy traffic intersection is a no-brainer – Christopher Alexander 101 stuff.

I would be kind to yourselves and not put out the charge of provincialism as an argument to convince others to do better urban design – the locals never respond to this charge and just dig in their heels and call “home” better. Just do great urban design, travel and experience the good places all over the world and make good arguments as to why one should build the City.

P.S – What is a “Clamper”?

Regards,

Craig Purcell

Nice pictures of Starbucks Graham. I just hope those awnings can extend out that bit further otherwise one would get soaked if the weather took a sudden change. It could happen.

@Craig_Purcell wrote:

P.S – What is a “Clamper”?

Illegally parked cars are ‘clamped’ i.e. a sturdy wheel lock is put on one of the wheels preventing the owner from driving away. It costs 80 euros to have it removed.
Clampers are the people who work for the clamping company (a private company with a contract with the City Council).

Perhaps it is best just to drill down and place cars below grade and order up the cars like so many bag of chips from the automat.

see attached photo

Large fileds of asphalt at the ratio of 1.6 to 1 for parking lot to building area does seem to be urbanism’s biggest problem – all a clampers aside.

1000 sf of retail shops need 5 parking spaces at an average of 325 sf per car (US standards of course)

Restaurants need more parking at 2.6 to 1 and office users less at 1 to 1.

As it takes two incomes to survive most residential units need two parking spaces per unit.

This is of course a recipe for disaster…

Let us hope China does not get rid of their bicycle lanes in favor of more automobile lanes.

Regards,

Craig Purcell

A thousand apologies Morlan for the lack of spaces in my output.
The transition from Pen and Ink to Keyboard has not been an easy one and obviously the space bar was lost in space,so to speak.

Point Taken however and memo to myself…

MIND THE GAP !!! 😮

In America the rule of thumb for suburbanites (as opposed to urban dwellers) is they will walk 300′ to get to the front door of the shopping complex. If they have to walk further they will leave and come back later when it is less crowded. They will walk further during the holiday season.

Paco Underhill’s “The Science of Shopping” and “The Call of the Mall” are both excellent resources for understanding the behaviour of the shopper from a cultural anthropolgy point of view.

In the historic cores the parking ratios are less and everyone complains about the lack of parking. Usually some behemoth shopping center(s) is sitting close serving the core business of the community and providing lots of free parking.

Historic Cores tend to go for tourism and have food, beverage, boutique retail and hospitality as their economic base.

Starbucks likes to nest among these places on corners as well as at transit locations.

From The Irish Times (21/12/05)

Lad’s we’re too late 🙁

Trinity College Dublin has sold two adjoining Georgian office buildings at 5 and 6 Foster Palce in Dublin 2 for around €3 million. The college owns a considerable number of adjoining properties. Ganly Walters handled the sale. The buildings are understood to have been bought by a Dublin property developer. The two buildings were sold exactly 10 years ago for just under €700,000.

They sounded cheap unless they are falling down;

They would make some town houses for those with an ego matched by a fat back pocket. I hope DCC see this potential in thier deliberations

I don’t think there are many with multiple millions to spend on a house that would buy one with no security, no front garden, a taxi rank outside the door, constant traffic and a stream of drunks and vomit outside every night of the week.

You are right there aren’t many who would buy such a property but you only need two.

In relation to the drawbacks you raise

1> Security; not an issue given that they are landlocked to the rear and directly face the side of the BOI

2> No front Garden; many properties with no front garden trade for large sums; and given the setting outside the front door one doesn’t really need one should point 3 be addressed

3> Taxis; I agree this is a real issue not just for these properties but also for the streetscape as a whole; as was floated in multiple threads the College Green Taxi rank is dysfunctional and is just too small not to mention being relatively inaccessible being marrooned on a traffic Island.

4> Constant traffic largely linked to the above excluding the odd cash truck going to the BOI and would be entirely relieved by moving the taxi rank to say the side of the Central Bank on Fownes St and winding it around thew block with a que on three sides of the bank including Anglesea St

5> I’m not sure about this as the route is a cul de sac it doesn’t really attract anyone en route to anywhere; my own belief is when someone is drunk enough to vomit they will do it anywhere regardless of the size of the street or the number of other people.

Thanks for pics Brian it appears Starbucks did a very tasteful job

@garethace wrote:

A mongrel such as Starbucks cafe doesn’t qualify for the competition. It’s coat will probably never shine brightly enough to be considered for Krups.

I’m assuming Crufts since Krups make blenders and food processors (unless you’re making a real dig at these architects!!)

But does this space get used now that the pink furniture is in place. Its interesting but does it make a blind bit of difference. The qualities that make a space work…and encourage people to use it can be allusive

This thread started off well, but went a bit off in the last page or so …… would be good to get back to the crucial city-centre issue of the splendid but wasting asset of Foster Place.

In the end the Starbucks effect pondered at the start of the thread was fairly negligible and Foster Place pretty much continued on in a horrible state of wastefulness – dominated by taxis, fairly lifeless and prone to anti-social behaviour.

As mentioned earlier, the 2004 Temple Bar Framework Plan resurrected the idea of opening it through to the streets behind, and it would be a good idea to get some life and movement through it because at the moment its main use – apart from taxis and parked cars – is a homeless shelter and a public toilet. The underneath of the House of Commons portico stinks of piss …. in fact the whole place does.

If you can ignore the stench for a minute it’s nice to stand at the end and admire the architecture …. that is until the peace is shattered by a taxi accelerating up to the end, turning around and going off again.

And its fabric has suffered at the hands of Dublin City Council. (As previously featured in the paving thread: ) Superb quality coursing and bonding to the antique stone paving (left), then suddenly – Bleurrgh! – everything is cut up , bastardised and smeared with cement at the triumphal-arch entrance to the former BoI arts centre (right).

DCC’s Roads Maintenance Dept.’s practice of cement strap pointing looks even more ridiculous on these great circular granite tree protectors than it does on paving (left). Don’t ask what all the cement built up around the bottom is for – it looks graceful anyway! One of the golden granite tree protectors has been replaced in a thin nasty white reconstituted granite version (right).

Yeah, Foster Place provides a nice quiet environment for them to get stuck into the historic street furniture; a few weeks damage and destruction at the expense of the taxpayer, and no pesky passers-by to see and report their shocking work.

Is the rumour true that Trinity College now own all the buildings on the west side? What are they doing with them? They haven’t brought any life to the place – aside from leasing the corner building to Starbucks. Would it not be better for different property owners to have an interest here?

Foster Place screams ‘I NEED A PLAN!’, because at the moment it’s going nowhere.

as far as i know, Trinity owns all of the west side of Foster Place

Except the two townhouses near the end which were sold as an investment a year or two back by Savills I think.

Even beyond the rule that universities should never sell property and should never ever sell contiguous property, TCD was insane to sell 5 and 6 Forster place. Given they have the AIB building they could have done something special here.

Sorry reading more of the thread, to answer the question above TCD owns the AIB building, they used to own 5 and 6 as well, the two to the north of the AIB, but sold them last year. It also owns most of the second and third story of that block going west, they don’t own the ground floors, they did some sort of swop.

😮 That’s a fucking disgrace. How do they get away with it?

12/9/2008

Just rooting around Foster Place yesterday evening, it occured to me what a magnificent hotel the former Royal Bank would make.

(Archiseek)

Very much in the European tradition, it is of the perfect grand townhouse proportion, with ranks of gracious classical windows overlooking the leafy confines of Foster Place and the extravagant Coomons portico opposite. The banking hall which is conveniently off-centre would make for a spectacular lobby-cum-lounge, restaurant or bar, while the first floor appears to host some fine rooms with elaborate cornicing. It’s so easy to envisage the frontage newly restored, with potted plants, flags and window boxes and all the other manicured paraphernalia that comes with such premises. Such a low-medium intensity use would act as a welcome presence on the street and generate modest activity appropriate to the context.

What plans do Trinity have for this bank, if any, now the nursing school has settled elsewhere? I don’t see how this building could be sensitively converted for educational purposes – even if possible it’s hardly the most appropriate use.

It’s quite a substantial building, especially if the adjoining Francis Johnston townhouses were amalgamated into the premises (currently separately owned).

There’s also potential for frontage onto Anglesea Street.

Incidentally the townhouses feature a quirky detail with their doorcases, seemingly unique in the city, whereby the interior hall is narrower than the doorcase suggests, resulting in a ‘false’ fanlight 🙂

Alas the right-hand house has spilled the beans by painting their overhang white.

TCD has leased the ground floor of the bank to a bar operator, papers signed about two months ago, it will retain the upper floors. Originally it was planned to use the banking hall as a one-stop-shop for admin, I am sorry this admirable plan was abandoned. I continue to regard the sale of the two Foster Place houses as completely inexplicable.

Absolutely. And the pair only netted a piddling €3 million.

A one-stop shop for admin is desirable, notjim, but surely not at this of all locations, especially if plans for College Green ever come to pass which directly relate to uses on Foster Place.

That’s interesting about the bar – a welcome development, but possibly not the more permanent use that would be preferable for this site, nor the hoards of smokers, ashtrays abd fabric railings that will inevitably clog the entrance. Hopefully it will market itself differently to The Bank on College Green too.

I went in the Royal Bank buildings a few months ago having taken the wrong entrance into an adjoining office building, and the most bizarre scenario confronted me. A solitary man was seated at a desk in this cavernous unlit banking hall, with thin shafts of light penetrating various voids catching strewn papers and upturned furnishings, and an enormous and remarkably ugly Connemara marble fireplace looming behind him.

*sinister voice* “Can I help you?”.

*overawed voice* Can I live here too?

@GrahamH wrote:

A one-stop shop for admin is desirable, notjim, but surely not at this of all locations, especially if plans for College Green ever come to pass which directly relate to uses on Foster Place.

It is desirable to me but yes, only for selfish reasons.

It would make a fantaastic restaurant rather than just another boozer in the style of ‘The Bank’ up the road

Precisely. The banking counter would make a great feature in centre, acting as a bar serving the surrounding tables.

Passing the Celtic Note shop on Nassau Street today I noticed a waxwork/dummy of the late Joe Dolan in the window. At Joe’s feet lay a sign saying that the Waxworks Museum would be opening in Foster Place in February 2009.

Does anyone know which building it will occupy?

I saw this too. Perhaps the old Bank of Ireland Arts Centre building?

Alas it is. Not so much the use, as the arrogant signage they have just erected. Are these guys having a laugh?!

It looks ten times worse during the day, crassly mounted on the facade of Francis Johnston’s exquisitely refined Armoury Building. From what I can make out, this intervention to one of the most important historic buildings in the city doesn’t even have planning permission.

The integrity of this immaculate, historically intact enclave is being eroded by the day, with the eye-poppingly inappropriate taxi rank recently granted permission for expansion by DCC. Words fail. Just some of the chaotic results can be seen above.

As a taster of what we’re up against here, this was recently posted on a taxi driver’s blog: “Foster Place is just beside Trinity College. This rank is one of the oldest in the city of Dublin yet for some reason the powers that be are planning on closing it.“

If only.

That is bleedin’ awful….

O god. How did they get away with that? Is the city council that busy that they just can’t cope with dealing with shockers like this?

I’d kill to get my hands on the enforcement section in that place and give it a good shake up.

Unbranded Starbucks stores attempt to
come up with a new brew
LONDON ‐ Will the coffee chain’s trial of unbranded shops bolster the core brand or backfire?

At the end of this week, global coffee chain Starbucks will begin trials of an unbranded store in its US home‐town of Seattle. One of three such outlets planned, the first shop will be called 15th Avenue Coffee and Tea. An attempt to revert to Starbucks’ original positioning as a quirky, local coffeehouse, it will run poetry events and sell unbranded coffee as well as wine and beer.

It is hard to think of another brand that has done anything similar. This has led to speculation as to whether it is a simple exercise in reconnecting with consumers. Alternatively, is it a fresh format which, if successful, will be rolled out elsewhere, or a reaction to critics who oppose globalisation? Perhaps the reasons for the launch are more complex than they first appear.

A statement from Starbucks did not give much away, and says only that the new shops are a return to the way the company operated before its global expansion. As well as being unbranded, the fresh format will have ‘flexibility’ in the form of different opening hours from the regular Starbucks branches, and a licence to sell alcohol. If the activity is a way of reconnecting with lost customers, it is certainly needed. This year, the recession‐hit coffee chain closed more than 700 stores and cut thousands of jobs after a drop in sales.

Question of motivation

Nicola Mendelsohn, chairman and partner at ad agency Karmarama, which works with Starbucks’ archrival in the UK, Costa Coffee, is sceptical of the venture, and labels it as Starbucks’ ‘midlife crisis’.

‘Consumers are not stupid,’ she says. ‘They know Starbucks bought a lot of independent shops out of the market when it started its global operations. It is a wolf in sheep’s clothing.’ Size may have brought success to Starbucks, but it has also led to issues of brand depersonalisation. As Starbucks grew, it had to become more efficient. It introduced automated coffee machines, with the result that arguably its outlets became more like fast‐food restaurants than places customers could relax.

Some experts therefore believe its unbranded stores initiative is not only logical, but necessary. David Hutchinson, sales and marketing director at Paramount Restaurants and a former global marketing director at Costa Coffee for more than four years, argues that Starbucks is experiencing what all successful brands do when they move from being a small, niche firm to a global entity.

‘It is a phenomenally successful company that started off as a local brand but grew incredibly quickly,’ he says. ‘The brand was originally loved and respected by everyone, but the corporate world decided it had become too big.’ Phillip Davies, managing director of business brands at branding agency Dragon Rouge, believes that Starbucks’ rebranding is a positive step. ‘The company is returning to the business model it always intended to have,’ he says. ‘It wants to regain a community personality and the image of the neighbourhood coffee shop.’

However, Davies warns that the business might find it difficult to return to its roots. ‘It needs to focus on the inherent values of being local; it needs to employ local staff; it needs to be suitably different from Starbucks’ corporate image.’
However, David Anderson, director of Cada Design Group, argues that most consumers don’t have issues with the brand. ‘I know I just passively accept Starbucks,’ he says, adding that consumers are looking for a home away from home, and ‘want it in an environment that isn’t so heavily corporate branded’.

Anderson, who has worked on café concepts for brands including Pret A Manger and Caffè Italia, believes the motivation for Starbucks may have been that it had hit a developmental dead end. ‘In this sector, too many companies focus on product innovation,’ he says. ‘They think customers are brand loyal or product loyal, but they are not. It comes down to convenience and providing a space people want to be in.’

This may well be true, but there is concern about whether Starbucks’ decision will further marginalise independent coffeehouses ‐ one reason why its popularity has dwindled. Nonetheless, if handled well, the unbranded stores could sharpen the core brand. The shops will allow Starbucks to trial fresh approaches to the business it might not want to try in branded outlets. Conversely, if handled badly, they may be more akin to an Irish‐themed pub that bears no relation to the real deal.

From an architectural point of view this is good news; the new unbranded Starbucks on Conduit St London has the most minimalist signage I’ve seen yet; given that it is in a period stone faced terrace that was the ideal result.

City Council finally observing their policy on listed granite?? …………. maybe the failure of the UNESCO bid ….

2009. Some flags were removed out of the listed pavement on Foster Place for the usual services digging, and replaced in blacktop.

2010. A year later nasty white granite is slipped back in.

Close up. The white granite appeared to have been taken from another location already in use so it wouldn’t look too bright and contrasty.

2011. A complaint suceeded in getting the original flags put back this time …. but strap pointed lol.

why did they not put the originals back in the first place … has DCC the money to waste laying footpaths three times?