Environment minister removes cap on superstores like IKEA

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    • #707565
      Frank Taylor


      I see this as a regressive step towards car-dependence. I guess it was kind of inevitable as middle class people wanted to shop in IKEA so much.

      This article about the opening of an IKEA in New York has some constructive suggestions such as forcing IKEA to charge for parking and set low delivery fees to encourage people to use public transport rather than carting their own stuff home in their SUVs. Maybe IKEA could contribute towards the cost of an airport metro through ballymun (maybe get them to pay for their own branded station). We shouldn’t just change the rule to suit them and get nothing in return.

      If we hadn’t changed the rule would they not have just built the store in Newry?


    • #749236

      “I see this as a regressive step towards car-dependence. I guess it was kind of inevitable as middle class people wanted to shop in IKEA so much.”

      Extending the Luas Green line to Ballymun IKEA would solve that problem. This would create a public transport corridor from Cherrywood to Ballymun right through the heart of Ikea Customer land as well as the city centre.

      It would be a win-win situation all round.

    • #749237

      At the very least there should be free delivery within their catchment areas, 30 miles or so. Even Argos offers that in the capital.
      By definition Ikea is a car-dependant ‘experience’, so if we could alter that here by allowing people to get there via public transport & have the stuff delivered then that would be fantastic. We could ‘lead the way’ in this respect.
      Ikea are going to make a fortune out of us – we should set the highest standards of sustainablity with this store (including packaging, of which this store generates vast quantities)
      I don’t blame people for shopping here, esp in this country with the price of housing. There’s little money left to furnish new homes.

      There’s a press conference at 4 o’clock in Govt Bldgs, so more info should emerge this evening.

    • #749238
      Frank Taylor

      I like the Swedish.

      These are quotes from IKEA’s own social and environmental responsibility report

      Traffic to and from the stores
      Most IKEA customers travel to and from the stores in their
      own cars. IKEA studies show that only about 10 percent of
      visitors use public transport.

      Public transport
      Several stores are carrying out trials to encourage coworkers
      to use public transport, to share cars to and from
      work, or to cycle in order to reduce journeys by car to the
      Some IKEA stores have their own shuttle buses linking
      them with the city centre. As a general rule IKEA endeavours
      to locate its stores in areas served by efficient public
      transport. IKEA has formulated its own list of requirements
      for what constitutes “efficient public transport”:

      • public transport, preferably rail transport or equivalent,
        linking the store to the city centre or to a regional transport
      • there must be an embarkation/disembarkation point
        within 150 metres of the store exit
      • timetables must be clearly displayed at the exit to the
      • there must be at least one trip in each direction every
        hour during store opening hours

      Home delivery
      IKEA customers can use the home delivery service for
      goods. In most stores this service is provided by an independent
      company, and in most instances IKEA has started
      to put environmental demands on these contractors as

      IKEA has decided to focus on:

      • Investments in renewable energy.
      • Further actions to reduce the amount of waste and increase
        the amount of reclaimed/recycled materials.
      • Continuing with projects to contribute to reducing the
        environmental impact of co-worker and customer traffic
        to and from the stores. For example, public transport needs
        to be more readily available, and customers should be offered
        more help with home delivery of their purchases at a reasonable price.


      The target is,
      by the end of financial year 2005, 75 percent of
      IKEA stores should have efficient public transports.
      For financial year 2003, 77 percent of IKEA stores had efficient
      public transport links.
      IKEA are currently on the target set up and are investigating on
      how to improve the situation further for new and existing stores.
      This includes to define a new target.


      What are the biggest challenges for IKEA as far as
      increased social responsibility and environmental protection
      are concerned?

      The environmental impact of our transport requirements is
      a huge challenge. We’re doing all we can to pack more
      products into every shipment and to increase our use of
      rail transport. IKEA customers drive to our stores, so we
      need to be better at creating the right conditions for more
      of them to use public transport when they visit us. On the
      social side, the top priority is to create good conditions for
      our suppliers’ employees in countries where human rights
      are still in their infancy. One thing is clear. We still have a
      great deal to do.”

    • #749239
      Rory W

      @P11 Comms wrote:

      “I see this as a regressive step towards car-dependence. I guess it was kind of inevitable as middle class people wanted to shop in IKEA so much.”

      Extending the Luas Green line to Ballymun IKEA would solve that problem. This would create a public transport corridor from Cherrywood to Ballymun right through the heart of Ikea Customer land as well as the city centre.

      It would be a win-win situation all round.

      Yes because its great fun to lug a flat pack piece of furniture on a tram.

      I once tried to bring a flat pack bookcase many years ago from Bargaintown to my apartment in the IFSC via public transport – bloody thing nearly gave me a hernia/heart attack/both.

      People will drive there – I’m sorry but its true.

    • #749240

      Even walking down Henry St with a telly or Hi-Fi is a flippin nightmare!
      But to get Dublin people to use public transport & get the stuff delivered is the primary aim – and it’s often handier than trying to shove half a kitchen into the back of a Micra anyway.

    • #749241

      well i guess the idea is you go there by tram, choose and pay and have it delivered.

      does anyone know where the other three designated areas in Dublin are?

    • #749242

      This is great news, at last an IKEA store in Dublin, it’s going to regenerate Ballymun too.
      Don’t count on free delivery Graham, you’d need a large fleet of trucks to do that.

      I’ve worked in IKEA Antwerp for the last 12 years and I can tell you that IKEA is a great employer, I wouldn’t want to work for anyone else.

    • #749243
      Frank Taylor

      @shaun wrote:

      This is great news, at last an IKEA store in Dublin, it’s going to regenerate Ballymun too.

      How does it regenerate an area to site a retail warehouse there? It certainly provides employment but will the jobs will go to disadvantaged locals when educated Eastern European workers can be had for the same money? It also creates a huge amount of traffic.

      It doesn’t exactly contribute to the aesthetics of an urban area to drop a humungous yellow box surrounded by acres of car parks.

      As IKEA has a more efficient business model than smaller furniture shops, you would expect the result to be an overall reduction in employment in the sector. IKEA is getting to leverage the billions spent on the port tunnel and M50 upgrade without having to worry about the external costs generated by the increased traffic. It’s not their job to think about the greater good to society, that’s for Dick Roche to do when he considers the results of different land use policies.

      Still, I’ll be shopping there in my car, regenerating Ballymun by driving through it.

      Check out North London IKEA from the air – note the vast proportion of land taken up with roads and car parking and how inhospitable this area would be to anyone who can’t drive a car such as the young, old, poor or disabled.

    • #749244

      A pragmatic decision no doubt heavily influenced by the VAT implications of it going to Newry,

      I am absolutely against retail warehousing having a free reign but in this case subject to well thought out conditions being put in place; I agree with it, I do however have three major concerns.

      Firstly traffic generation and without stating the obvious that will place a traffic management requirement never seen outside a City Centre in this Country before, of particular concern is the new Dublin Bus central bus depot at Horizon Logistics Park which relies entirely on the Ballymun M50 junction for access beyond its site. IKEA should be made pay for a flyover and dedicated bus lanes a good distance beyond their store to ensure that the entire bus network isn’t affected.

      Secondly car parking, I really feel that Ikea must be made build at least 70% of their parking in multi-storey car parks to preserve the adjoining urban densities, given that a public transport corridor will be required to service their warehouse, the least they can do is practice at least some bit of sustainability. I also feel that the home delivery option should be looked at and some level of capital grants should be given to all ‘bulky goods’ retailers for encouraging public transport use.

      Thirdly that it will set a dangerous precedent; the definition of ‘bulky goods’ needs to be enshrined in the legislation to follow, this cannot be ‘non-food’ only it must be strictly ‘bulky goods’ ‘kitchen appliances’ ‘Garden centres’ and ‘motor showroom’ only. The legislation must proscribe ‘sports goods’ ‘clothing & apperell’ ‘<40% appliances in electronics' and 'department store' The precendent here is the appeal taken by the developers of the Dundalk retail park at Coes Road Dundalk, wherebye Dundalk UDC inserted a condition that only 'bulky goods' could be sold, the developer appealed and An Bord Plennala found in favour of the original submission by Dundalk Chamber of Commerce that the sale of 'Clothes & Apperel' & 'Sports Goods' would injure their business by reason of an unfair rental structure, lower commercial rates etc.

      If those concerns were addressed I would say, let the consumers enjoy the savings, put Ikea freindly courses into the local VEC’s to aid locals into the workforce and watch the entire retail warehouse sector elsewhere collapse. If this is built there won’t be a viable retail warehouse scheme this side of Mitchelstown.

    • #749245


      Ikea opening near the M50 reminds me of an economists term called “lock-in”. The term would be used to explain the extraordinary success of Microsoft; – the more people that installed the system, the more useful it became. The system operator can then “lock-in” the use of their product by aquiring a critical mass of users before any competition.

      In Ireland, road transportation is locked in because of the huge programme of road building, the surge in car ownership and the antiqated and underfunded public transport system. In the face of this, individuals will chose to rely on their cars, housing will be built around the road system and large shops – like Ikea – will be built on by-passes with large car parks. Employment will be sited on the assumption that employees drive their own cars. Powerful lobbies like the Automobile Association will be created.

    • #749246

      Diaspora – Elvery Sports are as I speak moving into the Coes Road Park beside Harvey Norman…
      Not that I don’t agree – I despise these places at the best of times, but mainly when non-bulky traditionally urban-centred establishments move out to these places.
      These parks have a role to play though; the range and value and convenience offered by bulk stores, whether they be selling tiles, carpets or kitchens, are increasingly needed.

      I note with interest that ‘Frank’s Furniture’ (that sells flooring) in Dundalk in such a similar roadside scheme, are now advertising on telly to Dubliners – “Only 50 minutes from Dublin!”

    • #749247


      I am surprised to hear that, I read the Coes road decision only the other day, I’ll check it tomorrow and I must say that type of letting is exactly what will kill out City & Town Centres. Why should people travel to the City Centre and support retail diversity when the most profitable elements are picked off by industrial sheds with a single glazed facade?

      I think that retail warehousing evolved as bulky goods retailers such as Frank got pushed out of town centres by rising rents, who in their right mind would argue that Elvery’s can’t compete at town centre level and if they can’t their is also Footlocker, Champion Sports and Lifestyle to replace them.

    • #749248

      Ironically, I cannot see Elvery’s surviving out there on the prairie – perhaps they will, but thus far Atlantic & PC World don’t appear to be doing overly well. Maybe they just need to get established – Harvey Norman is doing a bomb – why is beyond me at those prices…

      Places like Franks are moving out not just because of rents, but also for easier access.
      That company in particular spent a fortune only fairly recently on a carpet showroom to the rear of their store in the heart of the Georgian town, yet have moved out to the ‘by-pass’ anyway. And it’s not as if it’s to make it easier to lug stuff home – most carpets & furniture sold are delivered anyway! It’s just so people can sail up in their cars. The fact they’re now only a couple of minutes from smug nouveaux riche Blackrock is no coincidence either 🙂

    • #749249

      Blackrock has really gone up market since Dermot saved the football pitch alright.

      Still I have to say that I am surprised that the condition was reversed, I think that it was one of the best conditions I have ever seen in terms of protecting a local rating base. It is not too late to acknowledge one error and enshrine this protection into all legislation that will have mutliple effects on all classes of retailing. For the reason that if City/Town centres aren’t supported the government will have to up their subventions to local authorities as more second tier occupiers (i.e Wicklow St/ Dawson St, Oliver Plunket St, Cruises St, St Augustine St) leave heavily rated areas for the industrial rent/rate costs of the Praries.

      IKEA can work at this location of that I am positive, but there needs to be the necessary supports for the entire town of Ballymun and safegaurds for the M50 & Dublin Bus fleet as well. I went to the Square in Tallaght recently on the Luas and I’d have to say it was a very positive experience leaving Jervis Centre, not being stressed out by the traffic and landing on a great retail selection.

      I think that with a large local population, pending shopping centre and IKEA, Ballymun could become a retail hub in the same way that Tallaght and Blanchardstown have become but if traffic management & capacity aren’t put in place this will end in tears of diesel from so many gridlocked exhausts, and at peak times it could even render the port tunnel ineffective such is its potential effect on the M50. What is required is that the Luas for Ballymun be fast-tracked and the a QBC inserted and superior transport facilities provided for all Dublin Buses fleet based at Horizon.

    • #749250
      modular man

      I can’t think of a more suitable site for this type of land use. The edges of motorways are eminently suitable for this type of development providing, as Diaspora said, certain conditions are considered. Here in France , the local Ikea has a three-storey car park despite that fact that it is located in the low-rise suburbs. It is very well served by public transport but still most people drive. I don’t think we should demonise people for this as the real problem lies with the supermarkets; cinemas and other daily activities located on the M50which are not served well by public transport.
      The other thing is that whilst Ikea genuinely offer good design at low prices (I feel an ad coming on) it would be nice if they could apply the same logic to their blue and yellow sheds which line Europe’s motorways and try to do something that responded more to there generic (placeless!) locations.

    • #749251

      It is amazing how quick and determined the Govt have been in deciding this issue…. No such determination with the confirmation of SPAs and SCAs as required under EU law or proposed NHAs. Money talks it seems.

    • #749252
      Rory W

      @StephenC wrote:

      It is amazing how quick and determined the Govt have been in deciding this issue…. No such determination with the confirmation of SPAs and SCAs as required under EU law or proposed NHAs. Money talks it seems.

      This has been discussed since 2000 is 4 years not enough for a decision?

    • #749253

      I see Graham had an idea for alternative song lyrics for “goodbye hawkins house”

      Perhaps we should now do the same for “Goodbye Atlantic Homecare”

      Whatever the environmental impact, the Ikea meatballs are pretty good you know.

    • #749254
      Frank Taylor
      Diaspora wrote:
      Thirdly that it will set a dangerous precedent]I saw no reference to bulky goods in the DoE press release. The Irish Times reported today that CostCo could now open in Ireland. If we can have CostCo why not Walmart?
    • #749255

      [font=Century Gothic:1v4sdzcr]whatever about the fact that most people will use their cars to go shopping to Ikea thats kinda fine with me although there should be an alternative for people who don't have a car.lets be honnest its not people that are doing a once off shoping or even a weekly shopping that are the cause of 99% of the congestion on the road. I don't expect builders to get a bus to the building suppliers if pickin' up a few bags of cement nor do I begrudge someone bringing their car to fill it up at Ikea when furnishing their house! I say bring on IKEA as soon as possible at least the stuff is more designed than the shit the Irish market is flodded with. has anyone here tried to buy rerasonably priced contempoary lookin furniture in ireland- its pretty hard.[/font:1v4sdzcr]

    • #749256

      What is the obsession with twee pine furniture in this country, with ‘tudoresque’ hardware – never fails to astound.
      Particularly popular in the country for some reason. Reflected in all Londis, Mace, Costcutter & esp Super Valu promotions.

      Like red-brick – sign of quality…

    • #749257

      I have actually furnished my flat here in London mainly with Ikea….AND managed to get it all home on the tube (even including a palm tree!) It is possible!

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