Easter I916 Commemorative Military Parades to return to Dublin

I agree. Will look very impressive past refurbished GPO and O’Connell Street.

Shame we have no jets for a fly past!!!!! 😡

I am sure that the army could polish up an old Allouette helicopter for a bit of a rumble past.

About time though that we showed our confidence as an independent state and celebrated our nationalism as most other states on the planet do, rather than suppress it as an act of apologetic politeness to the Elizabethan squatters north of the border.

JEEZ, PDLL you cannot be serious (about the news, that is!) What a pathetic idea, Banana republicism at its best. Will El Berto take the salute on the podium? What weaponry has the army/navy/aircorps to show off? Niall, are the Fouga Magisters grounded? I though a couple of them were still capable of limping into the air! Maybe they could be towed along on trailers by the 40 year old Panhards? I can just imagine Col. Myars, ” the grey stone of the pillars outside the GPO contrasted nicely with the deep walnut burl of the rifle stocks”
Come back Myles……………

@KerryBog2 wrote:

JEEZ, PDLL you cannot be serious (about the news, that is!) What a pathetic idea, Banana republicism at its best.

Gadzooks. Will you give my best to the Queen at the next Trooping of the Colour parade, KerryBog2. Isn’t she looking radiant of late? Top ho, old being.

Fortunately I will have the joy of looking at 198 of the Austrian army’s finest Panzers rolling through Vienna this Wednesday – I must tut-tut them for their display of nationalism – how could they (you would think they had enough of tanks rolling through their streets – oh, I forgot – it is to celebrate their 50 years of statehood following the withdrawal of Allied occupying forces. I just hate it when countries actually celebrate momentous occasions in their national history – how cheap and cliched.

I don’t see what’s to celebrate about nationalism. It’s basically a form of mild xenophobia presented as some sort of moral virtue. I find all nationalistic displays off-putting – not just American and British flag-waving and pompous smug self-congratulation but also the Irish version of it.

While mild nationalism has been used as a tool for some liberation movements to create popular support for independence, I don’t know of any other positive contribution that it has made to humankind. On the other hand I can think of many many instances when modern nationalism (i.e. the form which emerged in Europe in the early 19th century) was (and continues to be) used as a tool to create human suffering on an unprecendented scale.

I’d consider myself a human first and an Irish person second. I can’t deny the appeal of nationalism, having gone through a phase of being quite nationalistic myself for a few years but I actually hate it now. You don’t have to have militaristic displays, etc. in order to appreciate Irish history, culture and identity.

Suggesting that celebrating nationalism will be a sign of our self-confidence as a nation makes little sense to me. It seems to me that it’s a lack of self-confidence which encourages people to turn to nationalism. Historically this has been the case anyway (think of Germany between the wars). It’s almost and admission that there’s little or nothing to celebrate about Ireland except the fact that we happened to be born here. Everyone in the world was born in some country – there’s nothing unique about been born anywhere. When we had no self-confidence as an independent country, we seemed to spend considerable energy “celebrating” our nationalism. Thankfully these days, people expend their energies on more productive and socially rewarding persuits. You still have the option of following a football team if you need a dose of flag waving, emblems and feeling part of an arbitrary group.

@PDLL wrote:

Gadzooks. Will you give my best to the Queen at the next Trooping of the Colour parade, KerryBog2. Isn’t she looking radiant of late? Top ho, old being.

The Trooping of the Colour is quite a different ceremony, one that has taken place in most armies down through centuries and only as late as 1700’s England became associated with the Monarch’s birthday.

@jimg wrote:

You still have the option of following a football team if you need a dose of flag waving, emblems and feeling part of an arbitrary group.

You make some salient points, jimg. As regards your last remark regarding football – most cultural commentators see the fanaticism of some football supporters as a modern expression of a primitive need to belong to a coherent and like-minded social group. In short, it is modern tribalism (that occasionally leads to low-scale violence in its own right). From the sociological point of view, most would agree that the concept of the nation is a social construct that is considerably more sophisticated and complex than the tribe. Personally, I would rather submit myself to the basic human desire of identifying myself with a larger social grouping on the basis of my socio-cultural and ethnic identity than on the basis of which team wears a red-shirt.

@KerryBog2 wrote:

The Trooping of the Colour is quite a different ceremony, one that has taken place in most armies down through centuries and only as late as 1700’s England became associated with the Monarch’s birthday.

In that case, KerryBog2, I am sure that the Queen would love to welcome along the newly disarmed Belfast brigade of the IRA. Since Trooping the colour has nothing to do with nationalism and is just a harmful little symbolic display of Britain’s military (read imperial and oppressive) history, I am sure she would love to have a little bit of ethnic diversity in the bash. It is interesting to see that just because some military parades have taken place for centuries they are somehow ok. In that case, if the 1916 parade goes well and it is repeated for the next 200 years it will have your seal of approval?

Its only right that 1916 is reclaimed by the 90 odd% of the voters in this country who wouldnt touch Sinn Fein with a bargepole. Hopefully now the tricolour can be reclaimed on election result days – the flag belongs to everyone not just SF who wave it when they win and begrudge (as they did to an FG candidate) when someone else does.

@jimg wrote:

I don’t see what’s to celebrate about nationalism. It’s basically a form of mild xenophobia presented as some sort of moral virtue. I find all nationalistic displays off-putting – not just American and British flag-waving and pompous smug self-congratulation but also the Irish version of it.

While mild nationalism has been used as a tool for some liberation movements to create popular support for independence, I don’t know of any other positive contribution that it has made to humankind. On the other hand I can think of many many instances when modern nationalism (i.e. the form which emerged in Europe in the early 19th century) was (and continues to be) used as a tool to create human suffering on an unprecendented scale.

I’d consider myself a human first and an Irish person second. I can’t deny the appeal of nationalism, having gone through a phase of being quite nationalistic myself for a few years but I actually hate it now. You don’t have to have militaristic displays, etc. in order to appreciate Irish history, culture and identity.

Suggesting that celebrating nationalism will be a sign of our self-confidence as a nation makes little sense to me. It seems to me that it’s a lack of self-confidence which encourages people to turn to nationalism. Historically this has been the case anyway (think of Germany between the wars). It’s almost and admission that there’s little or nothing to celebrate about Ireland except the fact that we happened to be born here. Everyone in the world was born in some country – there’s nothing unique about been born anywhere. When we had no self-confidence as an independent country, we seemed to spend considerable energy “celebrating” our nationalism. Thankfully these days, people expend their energies on more productive and socially rewarding persuits. You still have the option of following a football team if you need a dose of flag waving, emblems and feeling part of an arbitrary group.

i think maybe the issue is patriotism not nationalism.. I think despite our problems we have a huge amount to be proud of. What is wrong with celebrating the event that helped set us on the road to independednce and at the same time deprive the shinners of another publicity stunt. As for ireland as a Banana republic, well its one I am happy to live in!

The Marchetti’s have also been all withdrawn from service by the Air Corps, after c 25 years in use.

– perhaps you are thinking of the Pilatus training aircraft GregF ?

@aj wrote:

i think maybe the issue is patriotism not nationalism.

This from an An Taisce book from 1982 called ‘Ireland’s Architecture- a shared heritage’, on conservation north and south of the border:
“Are we in Ireland suffering from too much nationalism and too little patriotism? … We are so proud of the colours (orange and green) that we have painted our house that we have forgotten to be proud of the house itself.”
(John Lewis-Crosby, Chairman of the Ulster Architectural Heritage Society.)

@PDLL wrote:

on the basis of my socio-cultural and ethnic identity

I don’t think you can equate Ireland with homogeneity any longer I’m afraid, PDLL (if you ever could). You’d find more commonality in football, where choice operates more than in the arbitrary area of nationality, which is only an accident of birth. As jimg says, human first, Irish second.

Have we forgotten what the three colours in the Tricolour represent?

Did anyone find it ever so slightly nauseating that Bertie was proclaiming his party’s ‘true’ nationalist credentials, as being ‘true’ protectors of this island, in light of the damage being done through his planning policies?
Indeed if the Ard Fheis’s host town was deliberately chosen as being what he deems suitably representative of this nation, I think it best we all get our coats.

It’s strange you should mention the Elizabethians up north PDLL, they’re equally fond of them down south as it happens – indeed Bertie need only look out of his bedroom window at the latest fortified erection guarding the entrance to Killarney:

Not being old enough to remember the last parade in 1969/70 (is anyone?:)), I’m in two minds about it. If nothing else a militaristic display in a modern, fairly homogenous Western society, along a commerical city street seems rather bizarre in 2005 – it’s so alien to us. And exactly what and whom is being celebrated/commemorated and for what reason is also something that needs clarifying in the public consciousness – i.e. 1916 needs clarifying.
We’ve avoided it for the past 40 years.

Might as well give the parade a lash at least, see how we react to it – we can always airbrush it out of history should it prove disasterous.
We’re good at that.

PDLL – you seem to have lost the plot a bit, I never mentioned the Queen, oppressors, the Ra or implied anything else. I simply pointed out that the Ceremony of Trooping the Colour was done from the Middle Ages (if not before that) by regiments in many armies. Its purpose was to help the largely illiterate troops become familiar with the flags and standards to follow in battle. The Irish army had (and possibly still has) a similar ceremony called the “The Blessing of the Colours,” same sort of thing with a religious overtone.

I have no problem with a parade for troops returning from UN duties, but I’m strongly opposed to a repeat episode of the 1916 commemoration a la Cliabh Solais, the crap and gombeenism that surrounded the 1966 affair, with various old farts trying to outdo each other in expressing their devout version of Republicanism, re-naming streets, etc. We should be big enough to move on and put that clap-trap behind us.

Graham H – Aaaah yes, the Brehon, a superb representation of the architectural merit on display in South Kerry. I’ve been trying to make up my mind if the window arches are Mogul, Vegas Gothick or copied from the menu cover at the local Indian take-away.
KB2

Ireland, Mother Ireland, you’re rearin’ them yet!

@KerryBog2 wrote:

or copied from the menu cover at the local Indian take-away.

lol 😀

We nearly crashed the car driving past it during the summer.
It’s probably more Jacobean than Elizabethian – I’m sure there’s hoards of architectural historians swarming their way over as we speak to pick over the minutinae of its design.
Either dynasty, they’d be rightly offended with that erected in their name.

The 1916ers must be rolling in their graves with the resurrection of the oppressor’s aesthetic – the icing on the cake would’ve been if FF hired out its facilities 🙂

Def of patriot;
one who defends his/her country’s prosperity, freedom or rights
Def of nationalist:
patriotic love of country, its principles or policy of national independence

Please advise as to what a parade has to do with an architectural website. Thank you.

Did I read somewhere that there is a proposal for 2016 to turn the GPO into a 1916 Museum.

Is this fact or just a political kite? My recommendation would be to turn the magazine fort in the Phoenix Park into such a Musuem as part of a architectural tour of the Park (Arais, Ashtown Castle & Farmleigh). Leave the GPO in use as it is a wonderful fully public building at the moment.

In the era of peace and reconciliation now in Ireland, a military parade celebrating 1916 doesn’t sit well with me. I would think some other form of annual celebration for the people who lost their lives for Ireland over time would be more appropriate and not just linked it to a rebellion against the British in 1916. Perhaps a celebration with our Peace corp troops who work with the UN and some of the NGOs would be more appropriate.

All I can say is that it is no wonder 1916 was such a disaster if some of the opinions expressed here are anything to go by.

Thankfully we have the privelege of being able to sit down in our plush Habitat sofas in our plush suburban houses and criticise the likes of Bertie, mock-Jacobean/Elizabethan architecture, and Liam Lawlor’s demise. We can do that because the gombeens that are in power are largely there because we live in a democratic republic and we put them there. It is a nice feeling to be master of your own destiny. Unfortunately, however, in these heady days of capitalist Ireland it is to easy to forget some people who made sacrifices for their nation so that the likes of us can lounge around and discuss such issues. I am sure they would be gratified to know that what they did for their country is now something that should be swept under the carpet of history because the concept of nationalism isn’t so politically correct. You should not forget that there are billions of people on this planet that would love to have the freedom to celebrate their identity in a public forum but are not so fortunate. Indeed, there are probably a few hundred thousand on our island alone that would love to do so.

KerryBog2- it is interesting that you had no problem with Irish soldiers returning from UN duties parading through the streets – if some of the ‘old farts’ that you mentioned had not the balls to stand up and do what they did decades ago, it is very possible that you would be looking at parades of young Irish men returning from duty in Iraq – would you have a problem with such a parade????

Even if people don’t like the idea of a military parade for national reasons (I presume that these people would also like to have the Garden of Rememberance removed – no point remembering all of those stupid old bastards no matter under what flag they fought and died), you could see it as a day out for the army and a sort of public audit for the people to examine where their taxes are going. This is not even about nationalism – it is about paying respect to those people that made sacrifices for their country so that we could enjoy the fruits of our independence.

Time to think a bit deeper about this one and to realise that not everyone born into this country over the last centuries enjoyed such a priveleged existance as we do.

Loyalty to one’s country and brainless jingoistic patriotism are quite different. I admire the first and despise the latter.
Seerski – you are quite right, enough said.
KB2

@J. Seerski wrote:

Please advise as to what a parade has to do with an architectural website. Thank you.

hear hear.

Will our tank be able to get under the Luas lines?

ou should not forget that there are billions of people on this planet that would love to have the freedom to celebrate their identity in a public forum but are not so fortunate. Indeed, there are probably a few hundred thousand on our island alone that would love to do so.

:rolleyes: Are the brits are blocking catholics accessing particular internet chat rooms now or what? You’d be great at writing the closing “what have we learned” speeches for South Park. I feel all weepy with indignation and I’ve felt a sudden welling up of admiration for the poetry of Paddy Pearse.

1916 was controvesial at the time it happened and it remains controversial. You may wish everyone to honour your particular brand of Irish nationalism, but they don’t. You don’t have any moral high ground here – just a different opinion. I don’t like nationalism – of any form or flavour – so don’t expect me to swell up with smug pride watching a few pimply army cadets doing a funny walk up O’Connell Street.

@jimg wrote:

:rolleyes: Are the brits are blocking catholics accessing particular internet chat rooms now or what?

By public forums I meant public parades, not the internet! I was not explicitly referring to the Brits – look at the world – it is bigger than these two islands.

I truly hope that our country continues to enjoy the current economic, political and military security which it enjoys and that your loyalty to your country is never fully tested. As I said, the very fact that we can enjoy the luxury of having a web-site discussion on architecture is owing to the fact that we enjoy such security. Conceit and a rejection of what happened in this country to make it such a pleasant place to live for its current inhabitants should never blind us to the background of the good fortunes we enjoy.

By public forums I meant public parades

Ok sorry that was a misunderstanding. In that case, I suggest you spend some time north of the border. It seems there is much more importance and energy there attached to people trying to “celebrate their identity in a public forum”. Personally I find Orange marches very unappealing but if you’re into that sort of thing, you should check it out.

I truly hope that our country continues to enjoy the current economic, political and military security which it enjoys and that your loyalty to your country is never fully tested.

Please don’t make assumptions about my feelings towards my country. I’ve expressed a general dislike for a particular early 19th century ideology; if you want to argue with me, you could try defending nationalism as an idea instead of making assumptions about my character. It’s typical of nationalists to suggest that only those who piously salute some particular historical figures or participate with gusto in patriotic/nationalistic public displays are “loyal and love their country” and the rest are disloyal and untrustworthy. This is the same sort of ideology which motivates the authorities in China and is similar, for example to the attitude in the US at the moment brands any critic of US policy as anti-patriotic and un-American; anyone who doesn’t jump up and down waving flags doesn’t love their country.

You have no idea what sacrifices I’d be prepared to make for my country and you’re sounding more and more like a SFer for suggesting that because I don’t share the same hue of nationalism as you, that I’m somehow less of an Irishman. In addition you have no idea what sacrifices my family or ancestors have made in the name of nationalism but I can tell you that at least one of them has a significant monument commererating their part (and death) during the birth-struggle of this state.

As a political ideology, ‘nationalism’ spans a broad horizon ranging from loyalty to American patriotism to SFer type politics to nazism to neo-nazism. In this regard, it is a difficult concept to pin down and commentators are right – this is not a place for discussing the 40 shades of nationalism.

There was another thread on this website in which commentators went into great detail discussing the minutae of battle damage done to the GPO in 1916 – photographs were provided of each bullet hole, detailed discussion was given on what might have been repaired and so on. I find it sad that the scars left on the stone appear to be more worthy of attention than the other people who died or were injured in that building – it says much about the values we hold as a nation (and yes, according to international law, Ireland is a nation no matter how distasteful that concept might be to some).

This is not about 1916 per se or the events in one particular building, it is about rightfully respecting the people who paid sacrifices for the present generation (whether they be freckled red-heads from Galway or newly arrived Nigerians awaiting citizenship). They are the people who at least contributed to Ireland’s present stability – it is for this reason that we are in the nice position of being able to send UN soldiers to Kosovo, Liberia and wherever. To state that they deserve to be honoured in some way is not blind nationalism, it is about respect and gratitude. To display that honour through a military parade is not about militarism or right-wing nationalism unleashed. They were people who died in military circumstances and should – as with all other nations – be honoured in military circumstances. The presence of the military – however pathetic it might be – is not a celebration of militarism, it is not a forerunner of the Nuremburg rallies – it is a symbolic gesture of respect by the lawful forces that symbolically and constitutionally uphold the sovereignty, territorial integrity and rule of law of the state and should be read as such. People are entitled to prefer another form of celebration or none at all – if that is the case such people should not undermine the sacrifce that people made for this country by intensely examining the details of a bullet mark on a stone pillar while ignoring the human cost that lies behind those marks. Those who proclaimed their humanity above their Irishness might wish to demonstrate that humanity by acknowledging the human price others had to pay for their self-righteous comforts and freedom of expression. If this is xenophobic nationalism, I must say, I must read up on my political ideologies. If a parade by constitutional and lawful forces tasked to uphold the statehood of Ireland is distasteful nationalism, then lets revel in the joys of anarchical disrespect.

Greg F – thanks for the Bastille Day photos, brings back old memories. Every year that parade is led by Engineers, the graduating class from the Ecole Polytecnique, the elite engineering school set up by Napoleon. You can see them in their white breeks in your photo. Despite Republican “egalite” the marching orders follow a definite hierarchy, a la senior service, with the “top” regiments first right down to the firemen in their brass helms preceding the tail-end charlies, the street sweepers. Not sure if architects get a place 😉

@KerryBog2 wrote:

JEEZ, PDLL you cannot be serious (about the news, that is!) What a pathetic idea, Banana republicism at its best. Will El Berto take the salute on the podium? What weaponry has the army/navy/aircorps to show off? Niall, are the Fouga Magisters grounded? I though a couple of them were still capable of limping into the air! Maybe they could be towed along on trailers by the 40 year old Panhards? I can just imagine Col. Myars, ” the grey stone of the pillars outside the GPO contrasted nicely with the deep walnut burl of the rifle stocks”
Come back Myles……………

Erm, the 1616 rising failed though, so what’s to ‘celebrate’? There were rebellions before it that failed also, why not celebrate the all? I’m with jimg on this-marching our little army up and down Sackville* Street because FF are worried the nazis, I mean SF are making a better job of sporting the ‘republican’ mantle is pathetic.

To be honest, if we actually had a miltary of any significance it might be a little less pathetic, but we don’t.

1916 is not cut & dry. It was not universally supported at the time and it is not universally supported today, so the fervent republicans should get over it. I’m irish, I’m not proud because I’m irish because it was an accident-I could have been born a black baby in Lesotho, luckily for me I wasn’t, that’s all.

Marching up and down streets to celebrate one’s ‘culture’ is the kind of stuff that goes down a treat in sectarianland, I mean Northern Ireland. I don’t want my country, Ireland, to head down that road-we’re only just becoming a more pluralistic society today, and just beacuse other countries (incidentally all the examples cited here are of imperial (the US) or former imperial powers (Austria, France and the UK)) do it, why should we? We were never an imperial power, so that’s a big difference. Fair enough-every tinpot african country ‘celebrates’ this way-is that how we view ourselves?

*bait.

No matter what you say the events of 1916 led directly to the foundations of the independent state that we enjoy living in today and that should be celebrated. By all, not just the few.

It seems to me there’s two issues surrounding this. Fistly should we be celebrating 1916 at all and secondly is this the appropriate way to mark it.

On the first question i’m unashamedly in the ‘let’s mark it camp’. In fact its embarrassing how little is done to commemorate those who died in the quest for Irish freedom. As an event it is the single most important thing to happen in ireland since the famine. We all know that it was not universally supported (anything but) and this is part of the monumental significance of the occasion – the change of people’s perceptions and the unstoppable popular demand for independence that resulted. If we value our independence at all (which i and most irish people do) then it is appropriate to commemorate those who acheived it.

The second question is less black and white and i can empathise with those who don’t enjoy military show’s of strength. We should however focus on the fact that the Irish military has had an exemplary record – no invasions, no war-crimes. We should be proud of them.

Go on El Burto!!!
Bass, brass and more bass flowing throught the capital whah!!!
Just what the country needs for the collective morale and all that…..but as someone mentioned what relevance does this have to this site unless Paul Clerkin can take to the capitals premier thoroughfare upon a float thrown together by the great De Blacam & Meagher Military Machines Wing, waving the archeire canvas and making telling remarks about the state of the work on said thoroughfare!!!!!
Onwards and upwards…..concrete waits for no man!!!
Viva El Primo Archo Paulo!!!
😎

murphaph

Have seen your ‘posts’ on other boards. Particularly, the one about ‘what life would have been like if we were still part of the ‘United’ Kingdom…… http://www.boards.ie : 😮

We have nothing to be ashamed of (down here) Grow up!… Are you a card carrying member of the DUP? 95% of people on this little island want to get on…. The people in the ‘South’ are quite happy being themselves and running their own country. When the people in the ‘north’ sort themselves out, they are welcome to join us…

Oh …………………….. and I am an Architect.

I think it is a worthy notion to commemorate on a national level those who died in their attempts to establish this state. There’s FF’s Arbour Hill and Bodenstown events, and the annual remembrance of those who died in the WWs at the Royal Hospital, but is there anything that ‘covers’ the founders of the nation, whatever about 1916?
Not being well enough versed on 1916 to comment on its ‘worthiness’ or otherwise, but at the very least there ought to be a national day of commemoration for all those who lost their lives in attempting to establish independence through the centuries.

To swing this somewhat around to matters architectural, O’Connell Street is of course the perfect location on a host of levels for any such event.
And never in a million years ought the GPO be converted for use as a 1916 museum – what a hokey concept. You can just see the wall-mounted boards stating how ‘this building’ used to be a ‘post office’ in the olden days – till we took it over of course, robbing it of its purpose and place in the city.
There is nothing more civic, more publicly open and welcoming that a General Post Office. For it to be continuing in its same use as it has since 1818, and as in 1916, is the very thing that makes it special.
The idea of the central building in our capital excluding its citizens on a daily basis in favour of drooling tourists is a notion too horrible to contemplate.

As for a potential parade to commemorate 1916, the first thing that comes to mind is its clashing with the St Patrick’s Day Parade. It wouldn’t nearly have the same appeal a mere four weeks after the ‘Big One’, not to mention a festival week to boot…

@murphaph wrote:

To be honest, if we actually had a miltary of any significance it might be a little less pathetic, but we don’t.

It is interesting that if we had a very developed military machine (I presume that you mean plenty of offensive weaponry, tanks, missiles etc), then it would be worth carting them out onto O’Connell Street and celebrating that. Perhaps part of the beauty of what Ireland stands for and for what it is often respected for internationally is that we are not a major military power, we have never used our army in an aggressive manner, we are not a threat to anyone, we have not invaded anyone (even when it might have been rightfully called for on our own island), we don’t have conscription (good job for many who contributed here), we have not wasted huge amounts of money developing weapons, the army has willing made positive contributions to peace keeping and humanitarian missions across the planet, and we won our freedom and independence with relatively little violence (by comparative standards). And what do we have for all of that? – a country that is one of the most politically and socially stable nations in the world and one that has a reasonably developed economy that shows great prospects for the future (should be appreciated by architects). Oh, ya, we have the respect of many nations and the reassurance that we are a stable and reliable partner in international politics. Forgive me if I am wrong, but these are reasons we should be proud of those ‘pimply’ young boys who might walk up through O’Connell street some day under a flag that they have voluntarily sworn their allegiance to defend and honour. Is this not something worth celebrating? We have maintained our independence since the early 20th century with a minor military force when others couldn’t remain politically stable with huge forces and bigger economies. All of this is worth celebrating.

To continually see any celebration of our independence as simply trying to upstage the Shinners says that the Shinners have won as they have become intimately associated with any expression of public / political national identity in the collective Irish psyche. Is modern day German nationalism associated with Nazism – no it is not. So Ireland shouldn’t celebrate a great moment in its national history because a bunch of extreme nationalists have colonized the concept. Wow – what sort of sophisticated political thinking is that – quess who has won if the official state doesn’t celebrate the event!

This is about symbolism. It is not even about 1916 itself and what happened in the GPO in the same way that Bastille Day is not about a jail break. It is about Ireland’s move towards independence and nationhood that laid the foundations for today’s progressive society (and for the economic stability that is buttering many an architect’s bread – lest we forget the comforts we enjoy) – if some cannot see that they are just blinded by their own selfishness and their inability to see the broader picture of the society they were born into, accidentally or not. Oddly enough, all of those who made sacrifices for our current stability, security, and wealth were also accidentally born Irish – they didn’t ask to be, but they appreciated it because being ‘irish’ was not something they could take for granted.

Again, this is about symbolism – not militarism. Are the Swiss Guard standing around the Pope examples of militarism? – no they are a symbolic defense of the Pope and what he stands for. Pretty obvious really. If some people cannot understand that a military display is a symbolic gesture on a national scale, then I assume that they will not understand why some people light candles on graves of deceased relatives. It is about symbolism. If they do not recognize the importance of the army not as a military force but as a symbolic embodiment of the legitimate authority of the State and of the collective defence of the values that the state of Ireland stands for (freedom, democracy, free and fair elections, rule of law, etc) (as do the Gardai), then they do not recognize the importance or legitimacy of other state symbols – the harp, the flag, the President, your birth certificate and passport (authenticated by a harp as the state symbol), and previously the pound in your pocket. These are the trappings of statehood – if you don’t like and respect them then you are either an anarchist or an ingrate. I have a feeling that many who criticize the military display of an independent Ireland would not have had such a problem accepting the pounds (in pre-Euro days) in their pockets legitimized by other symbols of Irish statehood.

Having read some of the contributions, I am not surprised that 1916 failed and that Ireland owes much of its independence to members of the Anglo-Irish ascendancy who had the balls to campaign for our freedom, both politically and culturally (think Hyde, Yeats, Countess Markewicz etc) (oh, I let it out – I am not a Shinner, nor do I consider my self Irish first, rather European). I genuinely find it an extremely sad reflection that some contributors to this site – who no doubt are earning reasonably secure livelihoods in an Ireland that is independent and politically stable (no matter what gombeens run the country) – do not have the hindsight to see why they are able to live the lives that they do now.

What has this to do with architecture in contemporary Ireland. Eh – indirectly quite a lot. Just look at countries currently struggling for or in the process of establishing their independence (Kosovo, Palestine, for example). Yip – you guessed right – not so much work for architects there, unless you regard repairing war or bomb damage as architecture. Architecture requires political and economic stability to flourish – without it, you would be damn glad to have the horrible bungalows along the country roads to design. Think Renaissance Italy if you need another example to prove the link between stability and architecture. Architecture also requires a sense of the symbolic, but this seems to be in short supply at the moment.

Sorry for the ramble, but some people really need to pull their heads out of their conceited and ego-centric arses. Yeats’s words now make sense to me – all of that ‘fumbling in the greasy till and adding the halfpence to the pence’. Mother Eire – you are raising them yet.

I’m finished here. Surprising for a debate about a subject like this, it has remained reasonably civilised until PDLL’s contributution. Would it be too much to ask for you to debate an issue without branding people who disagree with you “blinded by selfishness”, being ingrates, being conceited and ego-centric? What exactly are you trying to achieve here besides simply insulting people who aren’t into public displays of nationalism? Does it make you feel superiour in some way to fondly imagine that anyone who disagrees with you is the type who doesn’t visit the graves of their deceased family members? There’s actually a grain of a reasonable argument buried in what you are trying to say but I have no interest in digging it out and perpetuating this as your intent seems simply to personally attack all who disagree with you. If you expected me to respond with a bunch of insults directed personally at you thus “escalating” this debate, sorry to disappoint you. Enjoy waving your flags, marching, singing patriotic songs or whatever floats your boat. Irish history is lot more complex than you seem to believe.

I’ve been deliberately avoiding getting embroiled in this thread since it took on a purely policitcal thrust, but a few things require comment.
Many of the points you make, PDLL, are based on either a misunderstanding of your opponents’ points or on straw man arguments, with a strong strain of logical fallacy thrown in for good measure.
You make assumptions about the members of this forum that, at best, have no bearing on the argument and, at worst, are downright offensive. Do you really think we are all molly-coddled mammy’s boys from comfy suburbia? As jimg said before:

You have no idea what sacrifices I’d be prepared to make for my country […] In addition you have no idea what sacrifices my family or ancestors have made in the name of nationalism.

Finally, I don’t buy your connection between this subject and architecture. You’ll notice from Niall’s post that there is another board where you won’t need to make a tenuous connection to architecture; let us know how you get on.

PS Just noticed cross-post with jimg.

@Niall wrote:

murphaph

Have seen your ‘posts’ on other boards. Particularly, the one about ‘what life would have been like if we were still part of the ‘United’ Kingdom…… http://www.boards.ie : 😮

That’s a good thread that. 2,000 odd views to date. What’s wrong with a HYPOTHETICAL thread in a POLITICS forum about the POLITICS of Ireland and Britain?! :rolleyes:

@Niall wrote:

We have nothing to be ashamed of (down here)

I’m not ashamed of anything, perhaps you are?

@Niall wrote:

Grow up!

Touche.

@Niall wrote:

Are you a card carrying member of the DUP?

No.

@Niall wrote:

95% of people on this little island want to get on…. The people in the ‘South’ are quite happy being themselves and running their own country. When the people in the ‘north’ sort themselves out, they are welcome to join us…

Erm,ok, whatever makes you happy, personally I will vote NO in any referendum on allowing Northern Ireland to become part of the Republic. I don’t think we need to subsidise the place-it vacuums up £4bn a year from Westminster you know! 🙂

@Niall wrote:

Oh …………………….. and I am an Architect.

Good for you. :confused:

@jimg wrote:

Enjoy waving your flags, marching, singing patriotic songs or whatever floats your boat. Irish history is lot more complex than you seem to believe.

I could not agree with this more. Irish history is far more complex than many appreciate. Singing and dancing and waving tricolours just because is not my cup of tea either.

Edit: That’s all I’m gonna say on this here. It’s way OT, sorry to the mods.