‘Dutch Billys’
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These dutch billy buildings on Parnell Street have been mentioned before on this thread. Looking through the Dublin City Library website I saw these images taken in the aftermath of the Dublin bombings in 1974. I hadnt seen them on this thread before and thought it might be worth bringing them to attention. Images 14 and 22 refer.
http://dublincitypubliclibraries.com/image-galleries/digital-collections/1974-dublin-bombings?page=1
Another two candidates on Barronstrand street, both demolised.. Note the pinched upper storey windows, implying a prior front facing gable… The one on the right was only knocked a couple of years ago to make way for a Penny’s enlargement…
It is difficult to know for sure about the Baronstrand Street houses, you’d like there to be at least one other characteristic.
As we looked at before, Chernley shows Baronstrand Street fully gabled in his c 1748 view, but then again he shows the houses to be three storey, including attic.
On the other hand the two houses south of the RC cathedral are on the side of the street hidden from Chearnley’s view and, pinched-in top storey windows are otherwise difficult to explain especially in the case of four storey houses that were clearly built with some prestige in mind.
The Lady Lane house will definitely merit a closer look, pity it seems to be ‘sale agreed’ or we could probably masquerade as potential buyers and book a viewing. There appear to have been a number of high profile residents of Lady Lane in the 18th century, at least two of them holding the position of ‘Recorder’ in Waterford Corporation, perhaps no. 22 belonged to one of these gents. I don’t suppose anyone down there in the sunny south east has some local knowledge they’d like to share . . . maybe narrow the search down a little bit.
Still in Waterford, that five-bay house that was rebuilt three times and now forms part of the Granville Hotel, and which we postulated was originally one of the broad single-gabled mansions shown in Van der Hagen’s view of the Waterford Quays, it turns out originally had one of those scrolled pediment doorways like no. 10 Mill Street, as seen in this view of a Bianconi coach pulling up to Commin’s Hotel as it then was in the 1850s.
It’s a pity the artist couldn’t have stood back another few feet [OK I know there’s a drop] and shown us the top of the house.
This is a clearer print version of that Bianconi coach picture, with the scrolled pediment to original Commin’s Hotel door more clearly depicted, although it is still missing an entabliture which may be down to provincialism or more likely, dodgy draughtsmanship.
This in another view of Commin’s Hotel in the 1880s with its new wider doorway and gawky unconvincing pediment, as well as a enough luggage piled up on the pavement in front to send Michael O’Leary into spasm.
@gunter wrote:
The Lady Lane house will definitely merit a closer look, pity it seems to be ‘sale agreed’ or we could probably masquerade as potential buyers and book a viewing. There appear to have been a number of high profile residents of Lady Lane in the 18th century, at least two of them holding the position of ‘Recorder’ in Waterford Corporation, perhaps no. 22 belonged to one of these gents. I don’t suppose anyone down there in the sunny south east has some local knowledge they’d like to share . . . maybe narrow the search down a little bit.
Just noticed this today.. Below is a detail from a sketch drawn in 1774 by S. Wynne.. I’ve got a feeling the building to the left of the Bishops Palace is the rear of that house on Lady Lane.. Not shown clearly but Looks like there’s at least two large rear facing gables, and artist could have omitted the third..
As it turns out Simon, it is emerging that these triple gabled houses tended to be double gabled to the rear.
We know this from a remarkable survivor in Rathmines which, with its Regency façade, is a doppelganger for your Lady Lane house in Waterford.
22 Lady Lane, Waterford
5-bay house on Summerville Park, Upper Rathmines RoadDespite its superficially Regency appearance, the Rathmines house probably dates to the 1730s and importantly about two thirds of the original roof structure survives behind an altered flat parapet, which, together with the particular window spacing of the façade, reveals that the house was originally one of the series of triple gabled houses built on the outskirts of Dublin that we discussed before. The rear elevation here, and probably in the case of many triple gabled houses, was double gabled with a central dip over the half landing of the stairwell where headroom was not a problem.
a ramped staircase with a square newel post detail featuring engaged half banisters of distinctly hand made appearance would be consistent with a 1730s date
the aerial view from the south shows the steeply pitched pair of roof projections at the rear that originally would have been joined at the ridge by three similar roof projections to the front, linking to the triple curvilinear gabled façade
another view of the rear from the roof of an adjacent apartment blockThis is a rough photo-shop of the Rathmines house with its gabled profiles restored and showing the logic of the window spacing as originally set out, but without going to the trouble of removing the Regency render and new doorway.
The plaster wreaths on the present facade exactly match where the rain-water outlets would originally have been and, if we’re very lucky, this may be an indication that the original brick facade survives substantially intact behind the later render with the plaster features added to hide these bumps in the brickwork.
Thanks for that gunter, that Rathmines building is extremely similar, and a great reconstruction… Any idea what the original render would have been like?
@gunter wrote:
As it turns out Simon, it is emerging that these triple gabled houses tended to be double gabled to the rear.
We know this from a remarkable survivor in Rathmines which, with its Regency façade, is a doppelganger for your Lady Lane house in Waterford.
I dunno if that’s the case with the lady lane one…. The sketch seems to suggest the rear was three bay.. As the two gables portrayed are skewed to one side, and I think you can make out the tip of the third gable… But not sure.. It was one grand building in it’s day standing out against the Bishops palace (an extremely grand building!) as it does in that sketch above.. And some very wealthy person I’m sure lived there, be nice to know more of the history…..
@gunter wrote:
As it turns out Simon, it is emerging that these triple gabled houses tended to be double gabled to the rear.
Looks like you’re right… Found another depiction with a clearer outline of the gables by W.H. Bartlett..
If anything, I think the earlier image is the more convincing as a representation. Where did you find that Wynne drawing? If this is the Rev. Samuel Wynne, his draughtsmanship seems to be pretty accurate even if the late Knight was a bit dismissive of his ‘feathery’ watercolour style.
If you can find it, Sautelle Roberts [son of Waterford’s favourite son; John Roberts] is supposed to have painted a view of Waterford City from the east to go with his dodgy 1795 view of the city from the west. There’s a chance he may have splodged in something to represent the rear of the Lady Lane houses.
We may be homing in on the owner/builder of the Lady Lane house [no. 22, outlined in red on the 1834 town map and 25 inch O.S. map], but it will take a bit more digging to be sure.
the 1834 town map showing Lady Lane with no. 22 closing the vista down St. Francis Lane
the 25 inch O.S map showing Lady Lane again with the parish boundaries marked between St. Michael’s, St. Peter’s, St. Olav’s and Trinity ParishAlderman Ambrose Congreve is recorded as being resident on the south side of the street in 1732 in a dwelling house three properties from the Presbyterian Meeting house [outlined in blue] in St. Olav’s Parish. Unusually for a relatively small street, the houses on Lady Lane divide into four different parishes with only a handful being in St. Olav’s.
Congreve became mayor of Waterford in 1736 and was also M.P. for both the county and the city in the 1730s. If no. 22 does turn out to have been Congreve’s town house, and if we can confirm that it was originally triple gabled, that would be a particularly good fit as I think it is emerging that the curvilinear gabled tradition here was especially strong in the 1720s and 30s among the members of city and town corporations and among the prosperous merchant classes, two groups that were systemically inter-linked.
In a Waterford context, the Corporation commissioned Van der Hagan painting of 1736, depicting the Corporation’s grant project to extend the Waterford Quays, illustrates the status of the gabled tradition as something of a corporate style at this time.
@gunter wrote:
If anything, I think the earlier image is the more convincing as a representation. Where did you find that Wynne drawing? If this is the Rev. Samuel Wynne, his draughtsmanship seems to be pretty accurate even if the late Knight was a bit dismissive of his ‘feathery’ watercolour style.
If you can find it, Sautelle Roberts [son of Waterford’s favourite son; John Roberts] is supposed to have painted a view of Waterford City from the east to go with his dodgy 1795 view of the city from the west. There’s a chance he may have splodged in something to represent the rear of the Lady Lane houses.
Here’s Sautelles Painting… It’s seems to be very vague about the features of the various buildings..
I was afraid that might be what we’d be looking at with Sautelle, he’s even managed to make the father’s Georgian cathedral look like a gothic revival parish church.
On the positive side, he does indicate – in his own way – gabled terraces in the general William Street/Lombard Street area that Chearnley drew with a bit more vigour fifty years earlier.
What else have you got in that attic of yours Simon?
Are these some of the previously mentioned buildings in West street, Drogheda, that are more than likely of Dutch Billy origin?
http://www.greatirishphotos.com/2008/02/west-street-drogheda-louth-postcard.html
Apelles, until about three years ago I had no idea that Drogheda retained a treasure trove of houses belonging to the gabled tradition, none of the histories of the town make any mention of it. It was almost as if the street architecture of Drogheda was thought to skip straight from the elaborate half-timber cagework tradition of the celebrated Boate House to the stoic Georgian of the Grammar School, Singleton House and the like.
Without doubling the length of the Dutch Billy thread, I don’t know if we’re going to be able to put that record straight, but, as a first step, it certainly wouldn’t do any harm to point out that only the façade of the house you’ve highlighted [no. 106 West Street] is actually a ‘Protected Structure’ and neither of the two identical former Billys at nos. 5 and 8 almost directly opposite on the south side of the street even have that minimal level of protection . . . and these – the magnolia three – are only the tip of the gabled iceberg on West Street.
no. 106 West street
no. 5 West street, the right hand half of Dunnes Stores
no. 8 West Street, with its heavy parapet moulding which almost certainly replaced an original curvilinear gable
The rear of no. 8 West street, which was built over a medieval lane running down to Dyer Street
A view of the roofscape of the stretch of West Street from no 3 to no. 12 taken from the church parapet showing not just the former gabled houses at nos. 5 and 8, but also less obvious, two-bay, former Billys at nos. 4. 9 and 12 also. The roofs of nos 105 and 106 can be seen in the foregroundI don’t know what features the interior of these houses may retain, none of them are Protected Structures, but unfortunately I can confirm that the interior of no. 106 was recently, and comprehensively, plasterboarded out complete with a replacement stairs straight out of B+Q, all of which works take advantage of the fact that, unusually for Drogheda, only the façade of this particular house was Protected.
the top landing of no. 106
a beautiful pair of late Georgian curved windows are preserved on the rear elevation of no. 106, other features may survive behind the plasterboard.Ironically, the house next door at 105 – the Victorian redbrick in Apelles pic. – enjoys full Protected Structure status even though it was only built in 1895.
Not sure if you like coincidence’s Gunter, well anyway, I was browsing through the ghostsigns project & found this pic of ‘Shop street’ also in Drogheda.
You’re spot on again there Apelles.
The present site of the Wogan Interiors premises was formerly a terrage of four particularly smart Billys that we’re fortunate to have quite a lot of information on.
The site was packaged for development in 1727 by Drogheda Corporation and divided into four plots of 21 foot frontage and 128 foot depth. The site appears to have previously been occupied by a Guild Hall and at least one old house adjoining the north west corner of the bridge.
The Bike shop was actually a re-gabled version of the formerly gabled house built in 1727, or shortly afterwards, by Alderman Henry Ackland. The shallower pitched roof and ornate curvilinear gable in the Bike Shop view were added to the house circa 1900 after its original cruciform roof and its replacement flat parapet, which had succeeded the original gable, had themselves been replaced.
a view of Shop Street when the facades were still brickNote that the adjoining house [no. 23] had the same window arrangement as the cluster of houses on West Street that we were discussing earl
Head of the Orange Order addresses the Seanad
a new Muriel of King Billy replacing a UFF one in Sandy Row, BelfastWhatever may turn out to be the true extent of any connection between the Dutch Billy tradition that we discuss on this forum and other manifestations of Orangism, every year – in the lead up to the 12th – we miss the opportunity to engage in any meaningful exploration of the cultural legacy of Orangism and instead settle into a predictable pattern of reporting the conflicts and tensions that attend its celebration in the North.
Notwithstanding the visit of the Head of the Orange Order to Dublin yesterday, there is every indication that we will miss the opportunity again this year.
Even allowing for the possibility that Mr. Drew Nelson, the Head of the Orange Order, may have dumbed down his potted history of Orangism [as reported] to reach his audience in the Seanad yesterday, there remains the suspicion that even those steeped in the heritage of Orangism, as one imagines Mr. Nelson must be, may not fully understand the cultural phenomenon that they belong to and its legacy throughout the island of Ireland.
As reported, Mr. Nelson took the opportunity to highlight the two fundamental tenets of the Orange Order in his address to the Seanad; its avowed Protestantism and, its unshakable commitment to the union with Britain. This may be a statement of fact, backed by two hundred years plus of unrelenting observance, but it is also the sectarian cocktail that raises the hackles of even the mildest among the nationally minded community with whom the membership and supporters of the Orange Order share this island.
Clearly there is absolutely nothing wrong with an organisation being avowedly Protestant, if the organisation is exclusively, or at least primarily, religious in mission. Equally, there can be no legitimate issue, in a democratic society, with an organisation dedicating itself to pursuing a political objective, such as maintaining what remains of Ireland’s political and cultural union with Britain. It is the combination of these religious and political objectives that, perhaps even more so than the appearance of bowler hats among the King Billy banners, gives the Orange Order the appearance of a body from a different era . . . . a different, sectarian riven, era.
Orangism did not start with the foundation of the Orange Order in 1795, Orangism was a hundred years old by then and it would be a lot easier for the rest of us to explore the extraordinary cultural legacy of Orangism, and maybe begin to celebrate its many cultural achievements in Ireland, if the Orange Order put down some of its baggage.
Above is another view of those Dutch gables on Meat Market Lane junction with Sheep Street.
I came across it on the Limerick City Library website where they have uploaded journals from the Limerick Field Club from 1897-1908.
Their photographic section (here Rev. T. F. Abbott and Miss Ebrill) must have taken many images of old Limerick.
I know Limerick Museum has some but I would not be surprised if many others still exist, stored up in old attics?
Meat Market Lane junction with Sheep Street
Sarsfield’s House – Somewhere on Sheep Street.
Street Map 1840
One would imagine that the terrace of three Billys at a nice corner location at the junction of Meat Market Lane and Sheep Street would jump out of the records handy enough, but no, no no no, it’s the usual needle in a haystack operation.
For a start, Meat Market Lane seems to have gone under a number of different names in the 18th century, Shambles Lane, Bonifield Lane and possibly also the Main street of the Abbey.
On this 1752 map, Sheep Street clings to the east side of the, still standing, city wall with the former lands of the dissolved St. Francis Abbey [Franciscan friary] occupying the lands outside the walled city and extending to the Abbey River.
Of the several property owners recorded in this vicinity in the 18th century the only one I can find in possession of three houses is a Henry Holland, hardware merchant. By a deed, coincidentally of 1752, Holland leased, or more likely re-leased, a property comprising three houses, two cabins and a garden plot to an Ignatius Coleman of St. Francis Abbey, chandle, the three houses being then in the possession of Coleman, Patrick Mowney and John Hurly respectively. Coleman’s house, or at least the garden to the rear of his house ‘adjoined the town wall’.
I wouldn’t be confident yet that this is a record of the three Meat Market Lane Billys, but the anual rent of £16 that Holland charged suggests that Coleman was leasing three substantial enough houses and the three Billys would fit that description.
The site is now completely absorbed by a major apartment development constructed in 2003-4 and this end of Meat Market Lane no longer exists
There was an archaeological investigation in advance of the development, carried out by a local practice; Aegis Archaeology. What are the chances that the floor plans of these three important and distincrtive houses were recovered in the archaeological investigation enroute to the medieval goodies underneath?
pictures from excavations.ie showing the site and the excavated city wallNo, I don’t think so either.
I’m cooling on the Henry Holland connection, this looks more promising:
Limerick City Museum hold a collection of maps relating to the estate of Edward Hoare, which were surveyed and drawn by John Appleyard in 1747.
No. 8 in that collection appears to be the plot of ground at the junction of Bonifield Lane [Meat Market Lane] and Sheep Street on which the three Billys recorded in the 1899 photographs stood. Appleyards survey, which he takes the trouble to tell us includes ‘dimensions and boundaries of the said premises . . . exactly taken & marked on the above map’ is dated 1 August 1747.
These documents are available on the museum web site, although the resolution isn’t great.
The interesting thing is that the Appleyard survey depicts a large square site mostly occupied by a ‘large new shambles’ which had a gate onto Bonifield Lane. There were three stables fronting Sheep Street at the northern end of the site, but of the three Billys, only the corner house, described as ‘one large house’ had been built by this time, the occupant being a John Casy, carpenter, who rented the house from David Bindon Esq. [likely to be the David Bindon, who was M.P. For Ennis and brother of the the amateur architect Francis Bindon].
This would mean that the other two Billys date to after August 1747.
That will come as interesting news to them that thought that the Billy tradition all died out in the 1730s!
This doesn’t tell us who built the houses, but at least we have a couple of candidates now, the carpenter John Casy and the Bindon brothers.
Francis Bindon of course has rock solid Georgian credentials, but, on the other hand, he is associated with the John’s Square development in Limerick of 1751, which might be all dull-as-dishwater Cassellsesque to the front, but which we know featured a couple of delicate little Dutch gables on at least one of the rear elevations.
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