Dun Laoghaire Baths
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Stephen Devaney of An Taisce has called on Councillor Donal Marren and County Manager Derek Brady to resgin as he “understands they prefer the high rise block”.
well theres a shock.
from what i’ve seen of the two proposals which are shortlisted, Bennett Constructions is bland, boring and dull,dull,dull. I have to say that i am very impressed with Pierce Constructions proposal, and i don’t say that purely as a skyscraper fan, i truly do think that it is a well designed building, which could become a landmark for Dun Laoghaire. Hopefully the commitee will not be bullied into building the bland alternative.
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yeah read that too in the paper today. I really hope the high rise building gets the go-ahead. It looks fantastic and would be a great landmark for the area. it reminds me of that exclusive hotel in Dubai – can’t remember the name of it.
But then again, An Taisce seem to object to anything like this and willl probably end up ruining this proposal too. They make my blood boil . . . . . ugggggghhhh !!! The ultimate spoil sports
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i think the tower block option would be the better of the two. i have a feeling that it won’t go through though. what is the problem with a tower block? another flat hotel in that area would be ridiculous. a tall building like the one being proposed would be a great landmark building and i don’t understand why so may people are objecting. sure people have a right to object to a project but objecting to every propasal due to it’s height is ridiculous in this day and age.
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any dealings i have where i have the bad fortune of having to read anything from an taisce, i have found them to be ignorant, small minded, arse bandits who have nothing better to do with there time but object to anything approaching modern architecture just to keep this country in the dark ages. i am probably going to be reported for this but i think they should all be be taken out and hung.( i would have said shot but bullets cost money and can’t justify the cost and besides the rope can be reused to hang more of them). i ahve never come across a rational objection from them yet. one specific one was a development i was doing and this ar***ole objected to an bord pleanala saying my development was like cutting the arms,legs,head and mulitating the torso off a roman statue of a beautiful woman!!!!!!!!!! and he bloody won!!!! it astounds me how this sort of nonsense in the 21st century can be even looked at without them being put in a mental asylum let alone been taken into account. ahhhhh! enouhg of my ranting…it sound sgood this building…ant pic’s…
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I can’t get the pics across but this article from the Southside People might be of interest. visit them for a view of the proposals http://www.dublinpeople.com
The €5m question
An artist’s impression of one the proposed structures for the site of the old Dun Laoghaire baths
If you sent a child down to the shops to pick up a packet of sugar you’d probably do more than lift an eyebrow if they returned without the sugar but with a promise to deliver a 19- tier wedding cake sometime in the future.So it was last week at the launch of the two most favoured proposals – at least by local authority planners – for the Dun Laoghaire Baths site.
Delivering the bag of sugar as requested was the Bennet Group. Sticking to the brief outlined by the County Council it offered detailed plans for a £25m million Thalasso Spa (apparently it involves doing something vaguely unpleasant with seaweed) and Baths complex, along with a 104-bedroom four-Star Hotel, 25m pool, children’s pool, jacuzzi, and an outdoor artifical beach and lagoon. The structure would be just four storeys high.
Eugene Moore of Bennet Construction described it as a “timely new tourism/leisure asset for Dun Laoghaire … the best option for the people of Dun Laoghaire and the area as a whole.â€
The 19-tier wedding cake was offered up for consideration by the Pierse Group. Standing 65m high, it would have 120,000 sq. ft. of office space, plus apartments, shops and restaurant, Sea Bathing Pools and an indoor water leisure centre.
It was, admitted Ged Pierse, not a plan but a concept. It would, he noted, pull the focus away from “a decrepit town†and provide a gateway building to Dublin Port.
There would be objections to this bold concept but it was time that the “tail stopped wagging the dogâ€. Everyone would like it apart from the two per cent who will object.†The 95% per cent who would support the building of the most sought after building in Dublin would “fight and defeat†those who objected.
As it was a concept, he noted, the detail would follow after consultation with the planners. He reckoned that it would take four years from now before it would be completed.
So why wasn’t the Pierse Group concept shown the virtual door? After all, their proposal bears no relation to what the County Council asked for.
There’s just one reason why they’re not just still in but are considered favourites – money, and lots of it.
According to Ged Pierse not only would his company build the 19-story structure without it costing the local authority, they would also pay a form of “ground rentâ€, based on occupancy, in perpetuity. The figure of e5m was bandied about with the hint that this would be just the beginning of a profitable relationship.
Obviously the much smaller Bennett Construction would never generate sums of this nature.
Models and other details of both proposals are on display at County Hall, Marine Road, until July 7.
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i don’t know if they have a central office or are they just sitting at home wondering what they’ll object to next. i presume they do but out of their safety i never bothered to find out. they actually must now i think about it as they council’s send them a copy of drawings from applications. which begs another question…are they state run, cos i didn’t think they are, and if not why do they get sent automatically a copy of applications???????
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An Taisce
http://www.antaisce.org/ -
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There are far too many examples of An Taisce representing a decidedly not in the public’s interests opinion to list here. Sometimes you read somewhere that the “elitest” tag for them is unfair/wrong – but I have to judge this special interest body on their actions – not their intentions.
Their intentions are worthy and there is a need for that opinion to be represented… but actions via blanket bomb objections and opposition to anything resembling a progressive development is hardly going to win them any favours. -
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there is an email address on the An Taisce website. i had a look the other day and i have already made a complaint. would anyone like to join me? i mean email them with a complaint just like i did. if enough people compalin it might do some good. it’s worth a try. otherwise we will see this box hotel go up instead. i want the high rise option for a number of reasons, plus it is the better of the two. that area doesn’t need another flat hotel.
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mmmmm,
the results should be in tomorrow/today. i can’t wait to see which one they go for. i hope they discuss the winner on tomorrow’s/today’s news. by the way i am the type of person that looks at the news on a regular basis, yet i find it very hard to get info on these sort of projects. does anyone know where i should be looking? the net always has old news so where does one go to find out the latest up to date news on buildings, high rise development?… i’d appreciate any info. thanks
Cheers
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i guess i have some sympathy for the don’t privatise the sea front arguement, but, my understanding was that both schemes offered public access to refurbished baths. is that true? do people feel that no-one but the dcc can be trusted to maintain this sort of access or is the access on offer inadaquate in some way?
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I’m with the locals on this. Neither should be built, the pool should be restored as a public amenity
Tonight’s vote goes ahead against the backdrop of strong opposition from many locals who believe the site should be restored to its former glory and opened as a public amenity accessible to all.
The baths complex dates back to 1843 when it was developed as the Royal Victorian Baths. It was later redeveloped as Kingstown Baths between 1905 and 1911. It closed in the 1980s when it became too expensive to maintain. Its condition has steadily deteriorated since then.
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i too would love to see the baths restored but some how i don’t think this will happen now. it would have been a great idea to reopen them to the public and i must say that i would have been one of the first to use them. outdoor pools are great on a nice day. however i just think that if they must develop the site, i would prefer the tower block option myself. i am not saying this as a high rise fan. i just think it does look the better of the two proposals. anyway it doesn’t look too tall.
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i hear rumours that another landmark building might be going up near the port! it is planned for dun laoghaire yes but is this info right though? it looks like this is another planned building for the area which will be separate to the ones mentioned above. apparently there will be a competition for it just like the u2 tower but i’m not 100% sure. comments?
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I heard that the lower one (Bennett Constructions) wasn’t considered at all as to include on the short list would leave the council open to legal action from all the plans they had previously rejected. This was due to the proposed development exceeding the footprint of the site. If this is true (and it was reported on News Talk) it’s a very basic error I would think! Who was the architect on that one?
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Did you read the way that the Pierse proposal was ruled out so the competition could be relaunched?
Councillors were reluctant to vote on either accepting or rejecting the Pierce Group plan.
Instead, a motion was passed that Pierce Group be excluded from further consideration in the competition based on height, use, scale and provision of parking, thus effectively ending the competition.
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2003/0715/3985647500HM6CITYCOUNCIL.html
The use of a building’s height to rule against it, without even mentioning its architectural quality, is so deeply ingrained in this city’s psyche it’s maddening.
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“New competition to be held for Dun Laoghaire baths site”
http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/1025283?view=Eircomnet
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in my opinion they will end up building something flat and boring. everytime something tall is proposed for the city/county/country… it gets knocked on the head, most of the time. ruiling out a building due to height alone is ridiculous. it keeps on happening though. time after time tall buildings are knocked on the head or else they call for a reduction in height. why? in this day and age you would think that people would be more open to these issues. we can’t keep having this attitude. it just gets to me the way this happens all the time. things are never going to change here in ireland. i would have loved them to build the tower option. the hotel option did look a bit ugly and strange. it looked like a skyscraper on it’s side. as for the roof, it looked in some way like the top of liberty hall. wavey
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Ughhhh !!!! Just back from holidays and heard about the Dun Laoghaire baths site. Knew it would be too good to be true that the tower would be built. It would have looked fantastic. Too ambitious and too modern for Ireland though. Lets leave everything old, derelict, monontonous, boring or ugly so that conservative f*****g twats don’t get upset from evil modern tall buildings. Wish that generation, who always seem to get their way would all go into retirement and emigrate.
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Originally posted by WillC
Ughhhh !!!! Just back from holidays and heard about the Dun Laoghaire baths site. Knew it would be too good to be true that the tower would be built. It would have looked fantastic. Too ambitious and too modern for Ireland though. Lets leave everything old, derelict, monontonous, boring or ugly so that conservative f*****g twats don’t get upset from evil modern tall buildings. Wish that generation, who always seem to get their way would all go into retirement and emigrate.Yes, and the people who would rather the baths ressurected as a functioning baths for the people are probably all in the 90s as well… bloody old reactionaries… :rolleyes:
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the whole issue/debate about high rise in Dublin has reached a crisis point. Dublin needs taller beautiful buildings. and residential ones at that. look at belfast liverpool etc etc. Irish firms even build those – huge projects on the london docklands. i was told that the an taisce and georginan society etc are absolute fascists about this. well history will not remember these myopic fools kindly. let’s get high people, let’s get high!
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whose quote made the indo article
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=45&si=1019630&issue_id=9570go to the end of it (free registration)
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There is a slide show with detailed information about the latest Dun Laoghaire Baths proposal here for anyone interested. It was proposed by the internal architects of Dun Laoghaire – Rathdown about a month ago.
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Here’s Kevin Myers utterly moronic contribution to the debate. From the man who called the Carrickmines campaign “a diseased exercise in ancestor-worship”. Preserve our heritage … but only the bits Mr Myers like.
The Dún Laoghaire seafront is one of the best-loved features of the entire island of Ireland, and for many reasons, says Kevin Myers
Its setting has been carved by nature, with the Wicklow hills behind it, before it St George’s Channel, and beyond that, and visible on good days, the mountains of Wales, cousins to the Wicklow hills to which they were once joined.
But it was the hand of 19th century man which really made Dún Laoghaire what it is, with the railway line from the centre of Dublin, and the creation of the port by the great Scots engineer John Rennie: and perhaps it is in his honour that the adjoining Scotsman’s Bay is so named. With the arrival of the ferries and the rail connection with Dublin, an elegant Regency and Victorian waterfront was built, with a brace of mile-long piers stretching out into the bay.
Two churches were built to grace the town’s skyline, and from one of them the Angelus bell used to sound each evening to welcome returning ship-borne emigrants and visitors. The ferries no longer arrive shortly after six as once they did, and only those who have slid across the bay in the evening light and heard the bells tolling across the shimmering waters can know the bewitching melancholy they aroused in the hearts of those coming home to Ireland upon the brimming tide.
Dún Laoghaire is one of the most beautiful places in Ireland. It is beautiful to see from the sea and beautiful to see from the shore, and at times it can rival the Bay of Naples or Capri in its enchantment. So it is quite simply past all belief that Dún Laoghaire Council plans to dump a 5.5 acre apartment complex on land which for the most part – some four acres – is to be claimed from the sea in Scotsman’s Bay. And in contrast to the modest, two and three storey roofline which characterises most of the waterfront, the complex will, with a glass tower, reach 10 storeys high.
Moreover, it will not be set back from the sea, but will be an intrusion into it: where there are now waters, there will be an apartment block rising like Croke Park, adjoining the spit of land where the derelict baths now are. Indeed, it has been a desire to make something of the old baths which became the starting point for the entire wretched project.
But if it was simply a desire to put the baths to some fresh and profitable use, why not open a shopping mall, or a heliport, or an office block, or put the Bertie Bowl there? Why not place the national incinerator in Scotsman’s Bay, or perhaps our first nuclear power station? If a disregard for the waterfront is to be a defining feature of any development of the old baths, why halt at half measures? Why not let Michael O’Leary build his own transatlantic air terminal there? On the other hand, there could of course be some modest, low-cost development of the baths: they could be turned into a maritime park, which would be appropriate to the scale and the nature of the town. For Dún Laoghaire is primarily a residential suburb, which has no separate existence independent of the metropolis. It is not an industrial city like Bilbao, which was visited by a delegation of Dún Laoghaire councillors, and which apparently has become the inspiration for the Scotsman’s Bay project.
This is rather like councillors from Belmullet visiting Venice for a few tips on how to build a Lido, or representatives from Birr travelling to Florence to plan the future of their town. But we do not live in such a world. Apples are not the role models for turnips: oranges do not aspire to be teapots; Dún Laoghaire wastes its time, and squanders its seafront jewels, attempting to emulate Bilbao.
To be sure, turning the old baths into a park will not net the council as much money as the 180 view-blocking apartments, which will probably sell for about €1 million each. But then, keeping the Book of Kells does not earn Trinity College Dublin as much money as it would get from selling it: we could dispatch the President to Blanchardstown and sell the Ãras to a Texan, thereby turning a tidy penny. Moreover, Merrion Square is a terrible waste of precious city-centre space: why not knock down those unproductive Georgian buildings, and give planning permission for 40-storey offices and flats complexes, alongside the even taller Leinster Towers, where the old Dáil used to sit in that ghastly old Leinster House?
There is a bespoke and accusatory sneer for those who want to protect what already exists, and who wish that developers would leave well enough alone. It is that they are reactionaries who are opposed to change. So be it. For was the founder of architectural conservationism, John Betjeman, not so abused when he campaigned to save the famous St Pancras Arch? Were not the opponents of the Dublin Corporation scheme to turn the Grand and Royal Canals into motorways similarly traduced? Are defenders of the modest and the quaint against the garish and the new not invariably so ridiculed? The truth is that Dún Laoghaire is not some exotic Iberian city set on a Mediterranean shore, but a largely British seafront town set on the Irish Sea. If the Dún Laoghaire flats-complex project goes ahead, and Scotsman’s Bay becomes Scotsman’s Plaza, then the curse of both John Rennie, and of future generations, will pursue the perpetrators down the years to come. -
Orlando is the first word that springs to mind having looked at the presentation, it looks very early 1990’s Florida and that is before it is even built. If they were going to do something like this they would have been better to go through some of the losing entries from the Carlilse Pier competition. I don’t think that this proposal would be for the good of the town of Dun Loaghaire and I would anticipate very strong local opposition on the basis of loss of aspect and the scale of the proposal which is extremely bulky.
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From the Irish Independent, 16th May 2005
FORMER Education Minister Niamh Bhreathnach hit out last night at campaigners who claimed a council proposal for an eight-storey building will destroy the Victorian vista of the waterfront in Dun Laoghaire.
“Queen Victoria is dead! She didn’t even look out of her carriage when she visited the place. What we need is a living environment for the people,” said Cllr Bhreathnach, cathaoirleach of Dun Laoghaire Rathdown Council.
“This insane campaign against the proposals is by people who want to keep Dun Laoghaire dreary,” she declared. About 1,200 people held a protest march yesterday against the plan for the eight-storey development. Members of the Save Our Seafront (SOS) pressure group claimed the proposed €140m development on the site of the old public swimming baths would destroy the Victorian character of the waterfront. The plan would set a dangerous precedent for private high-rise developments along the public foreshore, they claimed.
A robust defence of the proposal was made last night by Cllr Bhreathnach who said the plan included a public maritime park, providing indoor swimming, measures for fighting erosion, and bringing exciting facilities for locals and visitors. She told the Irish Independent that people needed far more than just tea-rooms and Victorian vistas.The plan will be on public display from May 24. The development would include a new public park with rollerblade facilities and ice-skating in winter.
Access to swimming in the sea would be enhanced by the provision of three new public swimming areas, an improved public walkway along the seafront and the private apartments would help pay for the development, she said.
“I’m not a former minister for Education for nothing. These are facilities that will benefit the area’s children,” she said.
Richard Boyd Barrett, convenor of the SOS group, told the rally outside the town hall it would dramatically alter views of the Sandycove Martello tower described in James Joyce’s ‘Ulysses.’
The proposals include a 10-storey viewing tower and the filling-in of more than five acres of the sea. Providing million euro private apartments would damage the public character of the area, he said. Green Party Councillor Kealin Ireland said its bulk and scale was phenomenally large and it would “obliterate views of Scotsman’s Bay and Sandycove Point”.
Alan O’Keeffe
I really have to laugh at Breathnach’s comments with regards to Queen Victoria only 3 years since the Council endorsed the reconstruction of a monument to her glory! It seems that its rededication to the workers who were killed building the harbour was really only an after-thought!
Anyway, as Thomond Park said, the design looks very dated. I personally however believe the in-fill of land here is quite a good idea. It would link the east pier to the Newtown Smith green quit well. This green area itself is reclaimed land. However, I wonder how high up the new piece of green would be. The corner area between the seashore and the pier gets a real bashing from the Northerly gales in the winter! The shape of the trees along the road in this area are a good piece of evidence in this regard.
The scale of the building looks too bulky though. The present baths even makes the area look quite cluttered due to the thinness of the road in this area and the footpath on the other side of the road. It might be a good idea to continue the railway covering down further towards Teddy’s Icecream shop to open the area up a bit (realistically not going to happen is suppose!).
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Here’s a quite interesting discussion on the issue between Eamonn Gilmore and Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown Senior Architect and Planner Dr Eugene Gibbons/Gribbons on Pat Kenny last Tuesday.
Pat having an active interest in the topic (for obvious reasons :)) makes it that bit more interesting.Scroll to around 42 mins into the programme for the discussion:
http://www.rte.ie/rams/radio/latest/Tue/rte-todaywithpatkenny.smil
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Decision on Dún Laoghaire plan postponed
05 July 2005 16:31
Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council has again postponed a vote on a controversial development on the seafront.County officials want to redevelop the old Victorian baths and build an eight-storey apartment block as well as a swimming pool, leisure complex, coffee bars and a restaurant.
At last night’s meeting, council management proposed lowering the buildings by several storeys.
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there is something to be said about the councils decision not to go ahead with the proposed 19 storey development. indeed it would have looked striking and would have given the port an international favour. but i have to agree with the fact that it would have closed off the area to the public. i have seen in foreign countries how local people and local visitors have become marginalised because of ‘posh’ developments.
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Couple of points:
– The previous comment on skyscrapper / tall buildings is really meaningless unless set in contect – even so Dublin has a greater need of density rather than tall buildings per say and I would argue that very tall buildings relative to the urban fabric of Dublin are out of context – needs a case by case review within context (love this word today) a more general urban policy
– While I am in favour of positive develeopment happy to conceed that Kevin Myers makes mainly good common sense in his article.
– On the building proposal itself I would be concenered re the height more more explicitly in that it seems to turn its back on the sea – what of something clean and modern like the De La Warr Pavillion. Would generally objecte to private housing being built on green open space.Shane
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@Southside People wrote:
Seafront split shock
05 Jul 2005
THE massive public campaign against the proposal to build an eight-storey development on Dun Laoghaire seafront has taken a new twist with campaigners now protesting against each other.A spat between members of the Save Our Seafront group resulted in a contingent walking out of a recent meeting and setting up their own group, Conserve Dun Laoghaire.The break-away group claim SOS has been “]http://www.southsidepeople.ie/index.php?option=news&task=viewarticle&sid=1195[/url]
TP suspected this was on the cards for quite some time
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Here’s the concluding paragraph of a piece I wrote for the Irish Times on 2 July 2005. The full article is at the link below
Something has to happen to the Dún Laoghaire Baths. Undoubtedly, the site should be developed, but at a modest scale. The opportunity to provide a building that respects the scale and grain of town should not be squandered. The current proposal should be put to one side. The Council should draw up various options for the site, all options should be examined, and indicative costs should be provided. The public should then be asked for their views prior to any decision being made. Proper planning is crucial, and there is only one opportunity to get it right.
I’d welcome any further thoughts on the issue,
Ciarán
http://www.ciarancuffe.com/Writings/NewspaperArticles/N050702D.Baths.DunLaoghaire.htm
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Good article Ciaran,
There’s always a case of we need the apartments to subsidise the project which seems ridiculous as Dun laoighaire/Rathdown should be one of the wealthiest counties in Ireland. Not sure what the finances of DL are like though but as u seem to indicate they are healthy enough,
The site is a sensitive one and 8 stories there seems overblown. I’m sure DL is full of nimbys but they might have a point on this one. I’d like to see scotsmans bay linked up to the pier. I hear recently that the s2s (suttontosandycove http://www.s2s.ie) seems to have been shelved. Pity that, sounded like a fab amenity. Hope it’s not the end of it.
You’re right about the apartments that are being built in DL. When are we going to see schemes where 3 bed apartments are standard, Where you could conceivably have families living (I know bit of a cultural shift necessary but some people might prefer it to commuting from beyond the m50)
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New proposals presented for Dún Laoghaire baths site
Archiseek / Ireland / News / 2006 / June 13
The Irish TimesNew plans for the redevelopment of Dún Laoghaire baths have been put in motion with councillors last night agreeing to fund a technical examination of the breakwater at the baths. The plans were brought forward in response to massive opposition last year to a proposal for a high-rise development on the site. The new plans include a public swimming pool and the renovation and landscaping of existing walkways. They also suggest commercial uses such as a restaurant, tearooms and facilities for alternative therapies. They specifically exclude high-rise and residential development, which residents had opposed last year. It is stated that the height should not be greater than those of existing buildings.
A good result for C Cuffe
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@Thomond Park wrote:
A good result for C Cuffe
it’s a good result all round. I don’t live in DL but I was out there last weekend and it’s a fantastic site. ok, it’s a derelict hole at the moment but what makes it great is the scale and the fact that, in its day, it enhanced the coastline rather than a monolith that blocks it out and transfers that view into the pockets of those with €2m to spend on an apartment
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