Dublin: it isn’t that ugly

Boyler there is book called the destruction of Dublin by Frank McDonald which catalogues a lot of the mistakes made in Dublin, according to Frank McDonald Dublin in 1960 was along with Edinburgh two of the finest architecturally intact Cities in Northern Europe. Unfortunately a lot has happened since and a lot of people as a result have become very cynical that one of the finer cities architecturally has become ordinary and a victim of extremely poor hygene standards.

If you search the forums you will see many perfect streetscapes where only a church or institutional building now remains, in many cases a lot of the Georgian housing taken down was left derelict for years and became filled with rubbish and inhabited by lifes more unfortunates. Although things are improving the pace of improvement could be a lot faster and that is where most of the complaints come from I feel.

A good start is http://www.reflectingcity.com

There are lot of very well grounded theories put into to practice on that site, obviously not everybody will agree with everything, but thats probably a good thing.

Older Dubliners are very self-deprecating – suppose it stems from the fact that Dublin genuinely was falling down around their ears in the 60s, 70s & 80s – particularly those latter two decades.

The negativity is now vented through litter, dirt, on certain types of people, on certain areas of the city etc.
But the place has come on in leaps and bounds and many parts of it are exceptionally beautiful, most parts being very pleasant. It is a different place even to that of 5-7 years ago.

To an outsider I’d say Dublin does have an air of a provincial British city in terms of its built environment; I can see it in the faces of tourists every day, but anyone who knows anything about these two nations will notice just how different Dublin is – on a host of levels, not least its architecture which has a uniquely Irish tinge to it, even if it has its roots in UK design.

To try to see the city from an outsider’s perspective all you have to do is remember what you thought of the place as a child – it always works for me. In terms of the scale of the city, not knowing its history or its geography or its people, and in terms of defining the place through key buildings and the general blur of the streetscapes, a child’s view comes very close to that of a newcomer.
Now unfortunately all I remember is a gritty, scary, smelly dump of a place littered with derelict sites and propped up buildings which doesn’t bode to well for my theory, but that was quite a few years ago…

Sure Dublin’s great 🙂

Boyler I love your passion for one so young, there go I in the seventies. If you had been around then would your blood have boiled.Yes,indeed Dublin is an attractive city- but so much potential was lost because of gombeenism, and cowboy deals. Might I dare to add that the protagonist, said gombeen folk, and cowboys, were probably not born and bred in the city.

this is an interesting thread- as someone who is a dubliner and left the country for economic reasons in the 80s(like so many of my generation) and then returned to my home town i have to say that it heartens me greatly that someone of Boyler’s generation says that he loves Dublin.

i don’t live in Dublin at the moment ,however, it gives me great joy to return to the city every other month or so and see how it is improving- the Luas, new bridges, new apartment buildings enabling people to live in the city, the HARP plan refurbishing O Connell Street , new bars, new restaurants and the people from all over the world thronging the busy and mostly pedestrianised streets-
There is a great deal of mispaced nostaglia for the Dublin pre- 60s- we hanker after the faded grandeur and forget the appalling sqaulor. The much maligned Ballymun Flats were built to house people who lived in appalling conditions in the former spendid georgian mansions we so fondly disremember-

the glory age of Georgian Dublin ended in the Act of Union 1800- the city went into decline from then in terms of building fabric and wealth and it is only now that we are turning it around with (mostly) appropriate and sensitive architecture-

when i was 15 Dublin looked like a bombed out city andTemple Bar was one big dark area of dereliction that was dangerous to walk through at night-(it might still be regarded as dodgey today with all the stag parties and all but at least people are having fun!)

cities grow and change and it is good to see that Dublin has not been preserved in apsic, but has gone through a period of decline(as happens all over the world) to come out looking good, friendly and maybe even intersting.

Lincoln no-one is saying that Dublin is a total dump and yes a lot of good things have happened such as Luas and the Boardwalk but equally some very bad decisions continue to be made such as procrastination on a proper rail system, planning decisions such as the Capel Building and the Kiosks on Grattan Bridge, not to mention the quantum of visual wallpaper that is sanctioned year on year.

The point is not what we have now it is what we destroyed ourselves as a City the first page of this thread is very interesting

https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=1814

Thomond Park, there will always be poor planning decsions and poor examples of architecture to point out in any city in general , however , the visual environment in Dublin is greatly improved and is to be welcomed. you may say that no-one is saying that Dublin is a dump, however, that is not the case in general conversation and in parts of the media as outlined above by Boyler.

as for our lost georgian heritage , which was lost during the ruinious period of the 70s and 80s ( as outlined in Frank McDonalds book cited above) it is gone and gone forever. It is a great pity, however, we must not dwell on it, and we should focus on the rentention and approproate refurbishment of what is left.(which is quite substantial actually)

the georgian period architecture was the result of great wealth, confidence and the will of a few powerful men, who in creating a “modern ” capital a mile east from it’s medieval core transfomed the city . We are doing something similar now , but in a more modest and contextual manner as befits our pluralistic democracy and planning system based on equal rights of all citizens to object.

therefore, you may not like everything that is happening (or not happening)in Dublin , however, it is very positive in the most part.

Is it just me or do people get the impression that increasingly nowadays, there’s almost something of a relief that what was knocked was actually carried out, as it has paved the way for so many shiney new buildings today – whether they be reconditioned 70s offices, or newly developed derelict sites etc?

Also, that the new space generated not only allowed contempoary architecture to line the streets, but it also allowed the city to grow in the boom years – it was able to accommodate the savage appetite for office space and other commercial & retail demands.

It just seems increasingly like this, or is it just we’ve all moved on?
Anyone else get that impression?

I’m not so sure Graham

The IFSC, and the Jervis and Stephens Green shopping centres are about the only modern commercial buildings that people in great numbers ever speak positively about. Even the Central Bank divides people greatly, ask people about developments within their localities and you will very often hit a raw nerve particularly in relation to the lower grade of contemporary apartment development.

I mean on a broader level really – that if the city had stayed pretty much as it was from 1955 onwards, filled with ‘lovely old buildings’, many of them nothing spectacular but would probably be protected anyway today – that there’d be a frustration at the lack of modern architecture represented on our streetscapes. That at least the ‘weeding out’ of some of the older stock, including an estimated 40% of the Georgian environment, enabled areas to redevelop, to become ‘dynamic’ and ‘prime locations’ etc.
I’m thinking not so much of the iconic demolitions like Fitzwilliam St etc, but more along the lines of Baggot St, Burlington Road, St. Stephen’s Green, indeed so much of the southside including beyond the canal etc.

I suppose it’s the estate-agent’s speak if nothing else that’s generating this impression – just gets annoying at times, like nothing ever happened…..then again you go through some areas and think how great they now look..

I see where you are going with Burlington Road and I would add the old RDS Cattle grounds now the AIB Bankcentre to that as being prime examples of good planning. I differ with Frank McDonald on Burlington Road no City can be sustainable with gardens that size so close to the centre of the Office district.

I don’t go with Baggot St and Stephens Green was planning of the worst order as these areas have always been very much prime, you wouldn’t expect the Bank of Ireland to locate its HQ just anywhere. This runs entirely contrary to urban economic theory which suggests that slightly sub-prime areas should have been developed as a spillover to functioning districts in boom times.

The best example of this is the Taunusanlage district of Frankfurt that was a genuine urban renewal project, it features cutting edge architecture from the 1960’s 70’s 80’s 90’s and early this decade. It was entirely outside the existing office district but became one of the leading financial districts in Europe. Most of the correct places for development were overlooked for 30 years and areas such as Burlington Road, Ballsbridge, IFSC, Barrow St and Grand Canal Quay only started perform in to the 1990’s and the latest Docklands stuff going up is low on height and downright bland in some cases. For me the best commercial buildings in Dublin post 1960 are still phase 1 of the IFSC or Central Bank how sad is that?

Whats sums it all up for me is Clanwilliam Square that was developed in the late 1980’s at two storeys when the site could have accomodated 7-8 storeys comfortably.

Going forward planning has to be monitored as closely as ever there are the fridges on Grattan Bridge there is also the vastly overscaled Capel Building which is an ugly lump in my opinion and was only successful becuase it had capital allowances. There was also a near miss with The Gaiety Centre and the recent loss of the Ormond Hotel.

Times haven’t changed as much as some people think.

@Thomond Park wrote:

I don’t go with Baggot St and Stephens Green was planning of the worst order as these areas have always been very much prime, you wouldn’t expect the Bank of Ireland to locate its HQ just anywhere. This runs entirely contrary to urban economic theory which suggests that slightly sub-prime areas should have been developed as a spillover to functioning districts in boom times.

But saying that – if Baggot Street was still intact, would you be in favour of the houses’ demoltion if the BoI was proposed today? There’d be feckin uproar! Likewise with Burlington Road.
Or what about Morehampton Road or Northumberland Road so close to the CBD – would you be in favour of their total redevelopment today?

St. Stephen’s Green south-east could probably have done with the ‘reconditioning’ though considering the apparently insignificant jumble of buildings on that corner.

Where is Capel Building?

Graham,

The Ormond Hotel is about to be taken down with barely a whimper and an endorsement from ABP, outside the Squares and Upper Mount St can you get much more historical than Upper Ormond Quay in the view of Grattan Bridge?

The Capel Building is on the Junction of Capel St and St Marys Abbey it is 8 storeys over ground and has a huge footprint and virtually no design quality, red sandstone style composite panels, dark glass it is Houston Business Park c1978 in general appearance.

Is the glass half full or half empty?

graham/thomond park,

your debate seems to hinge around one basic point- should the city of dublin development happened outside the historic core(as in the Frankfurt example cited above, and many other examples in Europe, Paris, Amsterdam etc..) or in the city centre itself( London, Berlin)

my own view is that Dublin is too small to have two cores and i enjoy the fact that administrive, business , retail , social and most importantly residential life occurs in the city centre- Dublin is a vibrant living city because of this and i beieve that this is what is attractive to visitors rather than any grandeur.

in order to have this kind of town, then a lot of old stuff gets pulled down- and some of it regrettably- however most of it was dross and this makes the way for possibly better contemporary architecture.

however, a lot of what we are doing in replacing dross with dross- this has to be conceded, however, on balance, i think that the city has never looked better – it has a smile on its face rather than a frown

Dublin isnt ugly, its just not clean. 🙁

Luckily there are a few towns in Ireland that are clean to Europan Norms as certified by IBAL (Irish Business Against Litter) but unfortunately the IBAL League has put Dublin in the bottom decile of the list for the last three years and they have a very rigorous system of testing, the findings are celebrated the clean towns of Ireland of which there are sadly no where near enough.

Read minister for State Batt O’Keefe

http://www.environ.ie/DOEI/DOEIPub.nsf/0/1099122a179dedb180256fb1003e4ce9?OpenDocument

The results Coutesy of Longford News

http://www.longford.ie/news.asp?id=74

(The table is at the bottom of the article)

Just noticed this thread. I spent 3 years away from Dublin and am impressed by parts of the city. If you walk from Harcourt Luas stop towards the city you get a great view of Lesson street as it makes a slight right sweep. When there are no cars around you can just imagine been back in the 1800s with the tram tracks and old buildings. St Stephens green is still a great place and Grafton street is the ok even if it is just a commerical district. The traffic ruins the college green area around Trinity as people watch for cars rather than look around at what could be a really beautiful junction.
O’Connell street is magnificient with the new Spire and walking South it is a great foreground for the imposing four courts. Take the cars away and bring back the old buses and you are back in the 60’s. I think O’Connell street now may contend to have one of the best main streets in Europe but this could only happen when it becomes less commercialised. I also was confused as to why there was no dedicated bike lane on it. Cycled down it the other day but couldn’t quite enjoy the experience as didn’t want the number 10 behind me to hit me.
Unfortunately the North side of Dublin has not improved much despite its close proximity to the city centre. Its has become more multicultural but i would love to see the old-red brick buildings been restored. I think it will happen but may take 10 years.

As a whole it is a joy to walk thru the city to work but if the traffic can be somewhat contained it would be much more a pleasant experience.

i’d adapt the chav-away spray used in parts of britain to eliminate skangers. skang-away, maybe.

nope – chav-away spray sounds like the way to go.

excellent… http://www.patentsoffice.ie/

does anyone know what’s going on in blanchardstown shopping centre?? there is a lot of construction what are they building?

thanks

well ive been to blanch recently and looks like they’re making some really wide, though not tall, buildings. i dont know wat they are mayb offices? i guess only time will tell.

It’s largely neoclassical, but with Baroque elements, including the broken arched pediments not often seen by the public as they’re located inside the complex, as well as on the exterior walls of the sides of the building down the long passages.
It is under the right-hand one of these that the Taoiseach’s car pulls up as far as I know.

The screened facade part is quite Baroque in nature in that it is perhaps excessively/exaggeratedly decorated, and powerful in design; Power’s figures atop generating a particularly Baroque skyline.

It’s interesting how this building doesn’t seem to have won the affections of most people – perhaps an indication of the Baroque influences in its architecture, not to mention the early emergence of modern elements such as the clean chunky lines of the parapet that almost look like cast concrete.

I’ve never been a fan of the elevated pediment on the central block of the building:

…but otherwise I like the scheme overall. The view through the screen wall with railings in front is very striking – no doubt a lot of pain and effort went into designing that so the screen element and the central block inside hung well together from that important street perspective.

You probably know that much of the street elevation is derived from the Custom House, notably the twin column formations with windows in the centre, and the heavy dentiled cornice – not to mention the Tuscan order employed obviously 🙂

@john bedford wrote:

does anyone know what’s going on in blanchardstown shopping centre?? there is a lot of construction what are they building?

thanks

Heard talk of a 17 storey Hotel to be built there – don’t know if its the same thing though

Ah well then, sure they must be great so 🙂

Have you seen the current ads plastered across Dublin buses – don’t know what it’s for but there’s a giant pictured looming over Govt Buildings holding up the lead dome in his hand like he’s just taken the lid off 😀

Often wondered what the building would look like with a green copper dome – decidedly more effeminate anyway…
The lead dome is a sure sign of the hand of an English-based architect – did Webb ever even visit Dublin?
I’ve often felt the lead is a bit of an ignorant slap in the face to the city…

The ad is of Eamon Dunphy suited up as a gladiator for his Newstalk show.
There’s another one – the Incredible Hook – with George Hook smashing up the Westlink toll bridge.

😀

Good – what a ghastly struture the Eastlink is.

Alas the Govt Buildings buses were going too fast 🙂

I think Dublin has some really good Architecture but the one thing I’d love to change is the attitude of the general public to architecture and monuments. I don’t think the Irish believe the investment is worthwhile, not like Paris where the people have an almost inate love of it. If I could change one thing it would be that. You need only listen to all the anti-spire talk, whether you like it or not I still think investments like that are important and worthwhile but since all the public did was complain I don’t think it will be easy to secure more in the future.

[font=Verdana:2ihrakt6]i agree. i bought an art painting out in ardgillan castle (recommend it to anybody who has not been there) but i would hesitate to tell anybody in work about my purchase. there is just a lack of appreciation of arts and culture which extends to architecture.[/font:2ihrakt6]

@Dooid wrote:

I think Dublin has some really good Architecture but the one thing I’d love to change is the attitude of the general public to architecture and monuments. I don’t think the Irish believe the investment is worthwhile, not like Paris where the people have an almost inate love of it. If I could change one thing it would be that. You need only listen to all the anti-spire talk, whether you like it or not I still think investments like that are important and worthwhile but since all the public did was complain I don’t think it will be easy to secure more in the future.

Hi there, I’m new to this site but i’d suggest perhaps the following to improve Dublin (of which i am very fond!)-

buildings that must go –

Hawkins street house, Screen College Green, apollo house and liberty hall – The ugliest few acres in the country
O’Connell Bridge House
Loop line bridge

buildings that should go –
BHS O’Connell Street
the horrific glass section of arnotts Henry Street
monstrosity on top of grafton street (no not the Shopping centre but the newsagent)
Canada House stephen’s green – it would be wonderful to see a walkway through here to the underutilised iveagh gardens

Advertising to be removed –
Loop line bridge hoardings
Baileys and Irish permanent on O’Connell bridge

Pedestrianise –
College Green / Dame street / North quays (this’ll never happen but one can dream)

Move –
The procathedral onto O’Connell street – the derelict Carlton site

Best things to happen to Dublin last 10 years –

millennium bridge and new docklands bridge
boardwalk
screen o’connell bridge is forever gone.
connolly station
collins barracks

Hi dodger,

Many of the old favourites cropping up there 🙂

Though some I’d question – notably the inclusion of Connolly Station as one of the worthy contributions. Certainly it’s an improvement on the dingy shed that used to masquerade as an international railway station, but the idea that what has replaced it has been one of the best contributions to the capital in the past decade is ever so slightly way off the scale…:). If that’s the best we can come up with… 😮

Do you proposed lifting the Pro-Cathedral, portico and all with Herself clinging on for dear life on top to O’Connell St, or a new building? Certainly an interesting concept…

And as for applying the demolition ball to Grafton St, s sur surely you don’t mean our much loved ship-on-the-corner??! No not the Mississippi steamer across the way, but the corner newsagents??

afraid so graham, always have hated that corner!

Think you’re a bit unfair to connolly – the new luas entrance is striking.

I don’t see why you can’t move the procathedral brick by brick. It struck me as absurd when the corteege for the kevin barry funeral paraded up o’connell street and then had to snake around behind to the cathedral entrance. I ebleive it was alwys meant for o’connell street but i defer to our historical experts on that.

Forgot to mention the old department of justice.

All in all a few well placed wrecking balls would make a massive difference.

as a side topic can someone tell me how to get into the iveagh gardens.

Take the first turn left on Harcourt Street as you walk from the Green.
It’s well worth a visit.

definitely worth a visit but access should be improved and linked with nearby stephen’s green.

@Frank Taylor wrote:

Take the first turn left on Harcourt Street as you walk from the Green.
It’s well worth a visit.

Cheers. Walk up Harcourt every day but could never figure out where the entrance was. I heard it was a hidden gem.

Remember I had a most embarrassing time tring to find the entrance too – round in circles for about half an hour…
I love the crumbly bits of statuary that crop up occasionally from underneath foliage – an arm here, a leg there, an urn of fruit in the corner 🙂

Can’t agree with you dodger about Connolly, including the new canopy – though the works inside recently are a huge improvement all right – esp the acres of new seating. And it only took six years to install it :rolleyes:

As for the Pro-Cathedral, what about the GPO? The Clash of the Porticos would be one war too many for poor old O’Connell St 🙂

Nothing?

Small peripheral countries tend to be influenced rather than influence others.

Countries sharing a common civilization have an influence upon each other (positive/negative) in a variety of ways and not just architecturally. I emphasize civilisation rather than culture as culture is defined by its genus civilisation (with local variation). The modern european state is today the repository of cultural identites commonly referred to as Western Civilisation. For all of us within this great civilisation ((whether we like or not), it is national identity which instantiates (and provides local variation to) this common civilisation.

Two (and one in the North). Why don’t you find out what they are?

Those are correct

Clonmacnoise is a canidate World Heritage Site as well

Boyler here is the list:

http://whc.unesco.org/pg.cfm?cid=31

As you can see there is a bias towards Natural Heritage and Pre-Rennaisance architecture with only 788 properties afforded this designation on Earth.

Good to see you mentioned the two-chamber element Boyler of the BoI – most people conveniently leave it out in the world status claim…

Boyler,

The people in the WHC section of Unesco are concerned that any site of significance could fail to be protected.

Mount Nimba is a good example of how the process works.

http://whc.unesco.org/pg.cfm?cid=31&id_site=155

Mount Nimba Strict Nature Reserve

---

Côte d’Ivoire
Guinea Région de Lola
N7 36 11.5 W8 23 27.5
ref: 155

---

Date of Inscription: 1981
Extension: 1982
Criteria: N (ii) (iv)
Brief Description
Located on the borders of Guinea, Liberia and Côte d’Ivoire, Mount Nimba rises above the surrounding savannah. Its slopes are covered by dense forest at the foot of grassy mountain pastures. They harbour an especially rich flora and fauna, with endemic species such as the viviparous toad and chimpanzees that use stones as tools.

Inscription on the List of World Heritage in Danger: 1992
Threats to the Site:

The Reserve was inscribed on the List of the World Heritage in Danger as a result of two factors: a proposed iron-ore mining concession to an international consortium and the arrival of a large number of refugees to areas in and around the Guinean part of the site. The granting of the concession was announced in 1992 and included portions of the WH site.

When the WH Committee expressed its concern about the mining venture, it was informed by the State Party that there had been an error in the definition of the boundary of Mount Nimba Nature Reserve at the time of the nomination of the site to the World Heritage List and that the area proposed for the mining project was not considered as part of the WH site. An expert mission in May 1993 recommended a corrected and revised boundary which would ensure the site’s integrity and incorporate an area of 17,749 ha. This recommendation was adopted by the Government of Guinea in late November 1993 and subsequently registered by the World Heritage Committee at its seventeenth session.

In response to the concern expressed by the World Heritage Committee regarding the impact of the mining project, the influx of refugees as well as other threats to the site, the Guinean Ministry for Energy and Environment has established a Management Centre, “Centre de Gestion de l’Environnement des Monts Nimba (CEGEN)”, responsible for all environmental and legal questions, for the monitoring of the water quality in the region and integrated rural development and socio-economic studies.

Documents
Report of the 5th Session of the Committee

Report of the 6th Session of the Committee

Justification for inscription on the List of World Heritage in Danger, 1992: Report of the 16th Session of the Committee

State of Conservation Report: 1999

State of Conservation Report: 1998

Advisory Body Evaluation
Links
Natural site datasheet from WCMC

mickey d’s on o’connell street.

Tara on the basis of threat and cultural importance,

Croagh Patrick on the basis of Cultural significance and Glencar’s mining ambitions

The Burran on the basis of unique habitat and to ensure any visitor centre is done on best pronciples and not as a cash cow

looking at the photos of the hueston dev…. , i think i was wrong for saying its nice building , when you look at it , it reminds me of and old office building ? in germany or holland , its a good spot and its not a bad skyscraper to some of the ones that were planned in Dublin and built like hawkins house etc…

I think foreign architects are more experienced and better at designing better skyscrapers?