developments in cork
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@Aidan wrote:
Is that all? At the last census, Cork had around 12% of the national population – if the city region is becoming a counterbalance to Dublin, and is obtaining critical mass in its own right, you’d expect to see a higher proportion of completions than that.
Counterbalance ? that is a joke. greater dublin has 40% of the republic’s population. there is no counterbalance to dublin and there won’t ever be. Especially since the motorway network has been built radially. Don’t get me the wrong way i am a big fan of cork !
the only way to develop a counter balance is to run a train from galway to cork, via shannon This would cost mental amounts of money. You would need two tracks the whole way , and there is only one at the moment. only galway limerick and cork combined could even think of affecting dublin. Even then it not be a sure thing.
Cork was developped as a much nicer place by hanging on to the coattails of dublin , (better food, nicer nightlife, better transport, real industry). Although everyone is frighteningly insular still.
the only way to develop a counter balance is to run a train from galway to cork, via shannon
The three cities you mention, combined, could well function as counterweights to Dublin. And yes, they need better links between them. But ‘the only way’ is an exageration. In any case, I’m not sure that the traffic between these cities would justify such investment even in the medium term (Cork-Limerick by train is quite straightforward now, for example). The ability of cities to ‘work together’ is limited in any case though. Its not a team sport.
More likely, and more productive from a national perspective would be if each were to focus on areas of specialisation, and be planned accordingly. But I’m less than convinced that in a small country with a (thankfully) primate city, we can ever have the population to have more than two cities with the density of services and commercial activity to act as self supporting European centres. If you go any further, you risk falling into the dispersionist trap of the NSS.
The Cork region as a whole does have the potential to function as a counter weight. The county as a whole will have a population approaching half a million at this census. Its hardly inconsequential in a country of 4.3mill. Only cities of substantial size already can hope to accrete the functionality to become self generating in a modern context. The only way that will happen, even given the existing population level, is with the provision of proper strategic planning and lead infrastructure. It will never approach the size of Dublin (I hope), but it could well take some of the population growth and take the pressure off services in the capital .
@Aidan wrote:
Is that all? At the last census, Cork had around 12% of the national population – if the city region is becoming a counterbalance to Dublin, and is obtaining critical mass in its own right, you’d expect to see a higher proportion of completions than that.
Is it true to say that much of the Cork region is only really starting to grow in terms of population now? I know the growth rate is ahead of the projections in the CASP, but the scale of development only seems to have ramped up in the last year.
That figure is based on the number of projected house completions for Cork as stated in the Hooke & MacDonald Summer 2006 Property Outlook (10,000) versus the projected national completion rate in the same report (85,000) – the figure is more accurately at approx. 11.7% – when considering this, one most remember that the national completion rate has significantly increased year-on-year site Census 2002 and accordingly, so too has Cork completions. Given comparisons in population, the Cork figure is significant – where Dublin completions are greater by less than double that of Cork (8,000 units in excess of).
My own feeling is – and has always been – that focused growth in Dublin is damaging not only to itself, but the broader nation strategically. Personally, I see Cork not as a “counterweight” in the literal sense (I think such a prospect would never be beneficial) but a centre of strategic growth. Cork’s population is growing, and will continue to grow, there is capacity for this – but in terms of trade and industry, similar to what you say Aidan it should grow as a centre of ‘excellence’ with increasing focusses on niche areas that distinguish itself from other cities (Irish and European) and consequently attract investment which identify the city as synonymous with a particular field or fields. To this end, it is my personal wish to see Cork draw on its pharmaceutical, healthcare and technology bases and build a strong and vibrant R&D culture – to date, the level of this is insufficient with predominant emphasis of the manufacture rather than innovation of output. To this end, education should be a core driver of such factors with both University College Cork and CIT (and perhaps further 3rd level institutions) centred central to such progression. This does not mean Cork should isolate itself to these sectors (never carry all your eggs in one basket) but should promote and develop itself a set of core competencies that formulate a ‘first preference’ identity. Though the location of Amgen’s manufacturing activities in Cork was welcome – creating up to 1,000 jobs – to me, the real jewel is the R&D wing (which went to Switzerland). Equally, Pfizer has the bulk of its manufacturing operations in Cork – but its new biotech research facility has been cited for Dublin. Cork has the country’s largest cancer research centre (the Cork Cancer Research Clinic) – yet the clinic is scattered in inadequate offices and facilities between UCC and the Mercy University Hospital. It would like to see Cork take advantage of the Docklands area by including some prominent so-called ‘white collar’ research facilities to compliment the broader commercial, retail, leisure and residential development there.
Rather the compete with Dublin on issues of population etc etc – we should focus on developing what we have and gaining specialised interests which will promote future growth (this in turn should catalyse continued population, infastructural and institutional development). Cork should think outside the box and not copy those of everyone else – that means investment ahead of the game (installing a first class public transport system (rail!), creating a first-class living environment (green-spaces, protection of green belts, educational facilities, walkways, river-uses), protection of our natural environment and geographical assets (Cork is unique), promotional of the built environment (maintaining and improving existing building stock; promoting high-standards and a healthy-mix of architecture) – selling Cork as a distinct area to invest and live in.
I find it intresting the break down of population in the cork city area. in that it was the only urban area in the country to record a population decrease in last census.
Now there was an article in the examiner yesterday that stated the main reason for this was lack of development land within the city boundarys (which i agree with other than docks). they went on to say that the city fathers are looking to extending the boundary into county council areas ( which i think is long over due as services would be easyer to plan)
But the article says that some councilers are saying not an inch:mad: 😡
Now my questions are these:confused:
1. do you think that the county council will give in and surender loads of land around the city and end up losing loads in commercial rates
2. Where do you think city fathers are looking to have the boundary lines drawn. such are they looking for huge amounts of land(Like waterford which is looking for land a few times bigger than the whole city) or just to include the established suburbs back into the city boundary??
3.What do you think the population would be once the boundarys are re-drawn.
4.:) PLUS does any one want to try and guess what the population of county and population of city will be once the latest cso figures are released. I’M guessing theres going to be huge increase due the huge amount of eastern europeans in the county/city
@ToMuchFreeTime wrote:
I find it intresting the break down of population in the cork city area. in that it was the only urban area in the country to record a population decrease in last census.
Now there was an article in the examiner yesterday that stated the main reason for this was lack of development land within the city boundarys (which i agree with other than docks). they went on to say that the city fathers are looking to extending the boundary into county council areas ( which i think is long over due as services would be easyer to plan)
But the article says that some councilers are saying not an ince:mad: 😡
Now my questions are these:confused:
1. do you think that the county council will give in and surender loads of land around the city and end up losing loads in commercial rates
2. Where do you think city fathers are looking to have the boundary lines drawn. such are they looking for huge amounts of land(Like waterford which is looking for land a few times bigger than the whole city) or just to include the established suburbs back into the city boundary??
3.What do you think the population would be once the boundarys are re-drawn.
4.:) PLUS does any one want to try and guess what the population of county and population of city will be once the latest cso figures are released. I’M guessing theres going to be huge increase due the huge amount of eastern europeans in the county/city
Cork Corpo has been trying to expand city boundaries for at least a decade. Hasn’t happened so far and unlikely to happen, see Douglas traffic problems thread. I think the population will be up in the county, static in the city because of apartments in recent years. I think people overestimate the number of Eastern Europeans in cork. I think it’s just because a lot work in service industries they’re very visible.
ToMuchFreeTime wrote:I1. do you think that the county council will give in and surender loads of land around the city and end up losing loads in commercial rates
2. Where do you think city fathers are looking to have the boundary lines drawn. such are they looking for huge amounts of land(Like waterford which is looking for land a few times bigger than the whole city) or just to include the established suburbs back into the city boundary??
😎 City Council are to debate the issue of a boundary extention next Monday evening.
Councillors D.McCarthy and J.Corr have motions in on the subject, asking the County Council nicely seems to be done away with in favour of the sledgehammer approch as they are asking for Section 56 (part 8) of the Local Government Act 2001 to be used to force the issue and are requesting the Minister for the Environment, Dick Roche to establish a commission to decide on the extention.
I feel that Togher, Wilton, Douglas and Mayfield are all worth a look ??@kite wrote:
😎 City Council are to debate the issue of a boundary extention next Monday evening.
Councillors D.McCarthy and J.Corr have motions in on the subject, asking the County Council nicely seems to be done away with in favour of the sledgehammer approch as they are asking for Section 56 (part 8) of the Local Government Act 2001 to be used to force the issue and are requesting the Minister for the Environment, Dick Roche to establish a commission to decide on the extention.
I feel that Togher, Wilton, Douglas and Mayfield are all worth a look ??I would be inclined to add a mile beyond the built up areas. Otherwise, there will just be the same set of problems in 20 years time.
The suburbs you mention would be definites. The question mark would be over Ballincollig, which could also look to get a UDC in its own right.
lexington wrote:Rather the compete with Dublin on issues of population etc etc – we should focus on developing what we have and gaining specialised interests which will promote future growth (this in turn should catalyse continued population, infastructural and institutional development). Cork should think outside the box and not copy those of everyone else – that means investment ahead of the game (installing a first class public transport system (rail!), creating a first-class living environment (green-spaces, protection of green belts, educational facilities, walkways, river-uses), protection of our natural environment and geographical assets (Cork is unique), promotional of the built environment (maintaining and improving existing building stock]If only we were in control of our own destiny. The purse strings are held by Dublin and I doubt we would be given free rein. The airport terminal springs to mind.
@jungle wrote:
I would be inclined to add a mile beyond the built up areas. Otherwise, there will just be the same set of problems in 20 years time.
The suburbs you mention would be definites. The question mark would be over Ballincollig, which could also look to get a UDC in its own right.
🙂 Agreed, on the western side of the city all lands to the east of the proposed northern relief road should be in the control of the city as an absolute minimum?
Togher to the airport area + ballygarvan?
Mayfield to Glanmire?
Douglas to Passage?
On another subject, does anyone agree that the planning submissions for the docklands area are being submitted in a piecemeal fashion by CCC without the benefit of a masterplan for the area?Saw a notice in the Examiner today about all the flights to Cardiff from Cork. Apparently they will be leaving from the “North Terminal” (near the Cargo area) as opposed to the “Main Terminal” which will be used for arrivals. What “North Terminal” is in Cork…. are they talking about the new one? I thought it wasn’t to be used for another few months. I also agree that the city boundary should be extended right into the far suburbs. I think that a separate council should be set up for the whole Metropolitan Cork area. Towns like Midleton already have Urban Councils, but for Metro Cork to work in the future, there needs to be some form of Council that can work with all the UDC’s in the area as well as the CCC and CoCoCo, especially when it comes to matters such as planning etc.
@A-ha wrote:
I also agree that the city boundary should be extended right into the far suburbs. I think that a separate council should be set up for the whole Metropolitan Cork area. Towns like Midleton already have Urban Councils, but for Metro Cork to work in the future, there needs to be some form of Council that can work with all the UDC’s in the area as well as the CCC and CoCoCo, especially when it comes to matters such as planning etc.
😮 I agree 100% but for the fact that we would need to pay another 70-80% of deadbeat councilors for the Urban Councils, Metro Cork etc 30-50,000 euro PA including traveling expences to go to junkets on septic tanks…..in Cork??, that for 2 to 3 hours per week to add to their 1000 euro per week for the DAY JOB !!:mad:
😎 City Manager Joe Gavin has reached agreement with the site owner to purchase the remaining portion of the Huguenot Cemetery, Carey’s Lane.
The Cemetery dates from1710 and is one of only two French Reformist burial grounds in Ireland, the second is located in Merrion Row, Dublin. These 2 sites are the only surviving Huguenot Cemeteries in Europe.
The owner is to retain a strip of land 8ft wide as part of the proposed deal and is to apply for permission for a stairway to the first floor of a property he owns and wishes to develop as a restaurant.
If all goes to plan the city will open this area to the public.🙂 John Paul Construction were erecting a new tower crane today over Frinailla Developments’ CitySquare project at Ladyswell, along the Watercourse Road, which coincidently is now being launched through agents Global Properties and FML Properties. The 147 units (over basement car-parking and commercial/community facilities) are arranged over a variety of residency types from townhouses to duplex apartments capturing a near full-spectrum of preference types. Designed by Kiosk Architects, the scheme has been approximately 4-years in the making and when complete will offer a new and revitalised urban district to this, the city side of Blackpool (among Cork’s fastest regenerating areas). The family-friendly redevelopment will rejuvenate what has long been a derelict and unsightly location – and stands to further enhance the Blackpool area which will see a number of further developments come on stream in prospective months which will further promote this region as one of Cork’s most sought after and well served quarters (not least the new Revenue Commissioners offices off Assumption Road and the redevelopment of the Sunbeam Industrial Estate which will be subject to revised proposals in the coming future). Now sporting a new logo, Frinailla are progressing with a number of other exciting redevelopment schemes around the city including the highly anticipated Dennehy’s Cross and Convent Gardens (former Good Shepherd) schemes. The company was recently granted permission following appeal for its Orchard Gardens (Victoria Cross Road) scheme which was reduced by 1-storey to 5-storeys by An Bord Pleanala.
CitySquare scheme images – now launched through Global Properties and FML.
🙂 Dunnes Stores, through architect Berie Pope & Associates, are to submit revised plans (via Significant Further Information) on their proposed redevelopment project of the original Dunnes Stores premises along Saint Patrick’s Street. A number of issues were raised by Cork City Council’s Planning Department concerning the original proposal – including the roof-top plant areas and elevational treatments. The revised scheme will now again seek to demolish all on site structures (extending from Patrick’s Street to Drawbridge Street – with the exeption of facades 103 – 105 St. Patrick’s Street which will be retained and incorporated) and construct a 6-storey retail flagship. The scheme now proposes to add an additional basement level (which may allow for the relocation of some plant equipment from roof to basement), revised floor-layouts and revised elevational treatments.
Images of the original redevelopment proposal for the Saint Patrick’s Street redevelopment project by Dunnes Stores – improved images hoped for soon.
And before I forget, in honour of today…
UP MUNSTER!lexington wrote:🙂 John Paul Construction were erecting a new tower crane today over Frinailla Developments’ CitySquare project at Ladyswell, along the Watercourse Road, which coincidently is now being launched through agents Global Properties and FML Properties. The 147 units (over basement car-parking and commercial/community facilities) are arranged over a variety of residency types from townhouses to duplex apartments capturing a near full-spectrum of preference types. Designed by Kiosk Architects, the scheme has been approximately 4-years in the making and when complete will offer a new and revitalised urban district to this, the city side of Blackpool (among Cork’s fastest regenerating areas). The family-friendly redevelopment will rejuvenate what has long been a derelict and unsightly location – and stands to further enhance the Blackpool area which will see a number of further developments come on stream in prospective months which will further promote this region as one of Cork’s most sought after and well served quarters (not least the new Revenue Commissioners offices off Assumption Road and the redevelopment of the Sunbeam Industrial Estate which will be subject to revised proposals in the coming future). Now sporting a new logo, Frinailla are progressing with a number of other exciting redevelopment schemes around the city including the highly anticipated Dennehy’s Cross and Convent Gardens (former Good Shepherd) schemes. The company was recently granted permission following appeal for its Orchard Gardens (Victoria Cross Road) scheme which was reduced by 1-storey to 5-storeys by An Bord Pleanala.:rolleyes: I am looking for a developer in Cork to get me planning permission for, a Casino, a knocking shop, a rendering facility for detainees before they are shipped to Camp Delta in Cuba, and a Mosque in Tel Aviv….any suggestions ??
😮 A man in the headlines over the last week has been John Lally of Lalco Developments, principally thanks to his purchase of the former FAAC Electronics site in Sandyford, Dubin for €100m in the face of numerous other approaches by developers in the past. Mr. Lally has publicly stated his intentions to double his development portfolio value from approx. €600m to €1.2billion over the next 12 months and beyond. To this end, it is understood Lalco are actively in pursuance of additional sites in and around Sandyford – but have also discussed options on a mixed-use scheme in Cork. The discussions are understood to be preliminary in nature and remain unconfirmed – but it is believed Mr. Lally is sizing up possibilities on developing a scheme in Cork as part of his company’s expansion efforts.
😮 US-carrier Delta Airlines are in discussions with Cork Airport about the option of opening up a US route from the airport, however the stage of progression associated with the talks is unclear. The airline has identified Cork as one of its possible expansion options – the route could bring significant benefit in terms of both tourism and investment should it materialise.*shortly I would hope to post some (restricted) details of an emerging aviation development associated with Cork – although preliminary in nature*
😎 Businessman Ulick McEvaddy (of Omega Air fame) speaking at the National Infastructure Summit in Sandyford last Tuesday/Wednesday (16th and 17th of May 2006) issued his beliefs on the planning of infastructure in Ireland noting that he believes the country should approach the issue with a strategic outlook of 50 years and beyond. Mr. McEvaddy noted his belief that both Dublin and Cork city would require a metropolitan underground system over the next 50 years. The idea of such a system is casually laughed at and dismissed – indeed, under current economic thinking the financial justification for such a system in Cork is often void. However, perhaps this is short-term thinking. My personal view is that the city must and should consider a strategic, integrated public transport system (initiated by both public and private bodies) that will allow bus, rail, light-rail and even water-bus networks interconnect on single ticket sales. The prospect of a whole underground rail system in Cork is indeed excessive – and unrequired – but in providing efficient and utilised services, the prospect of certain areas (like beneath Wilton/Bishopstown/CUH area) being provided with intermittent underground would indeed be suited – before resurfacing at say, Bishopstown Court (which may have a linked Park and Ride for West Cork commuters) and proceeding over-ground out to Ballincollig. The systems could interlink with docklands serving water-buses (which could proceed from Kennedy Quay to Univeristy College Cork main campus – providing a connection between established and a prospective campus at the docklands) and commuter rail services at Horgan’s Quay to Midleton, Cobh, Mallow and Blarney.Along with the idea of a River Lee Flood Barrier (which will become essential in protecting both Cork city island and prospective developments/investments in the Docklands – which will become increasingly a particularly vulnerable area to flooding) – I believe we need to start thinking in this manner and stop dismissing such thought as unviable or unrealistic.
@lexington wrote:
😎 Businessman Ulick McEvaddy (of Omega Air fame) speaking at the National Infastructure Summit in Sandyford last Tuesday/Wednesday (16th and 17th of May 2006) issued his beliefs on the planning of infastructure in Ireland noting that he believes the country should approach the issue with a strategic outlook of 50 years and beyond. Mr. McEvaddy noted his belief that both Dublin and Cork city would require a metropolitan underground system over the next 50 years. The idea of such a system is casually laughed at and dismissed – indeed, under current economic thinking the financial justification for such a system in Cork is often void. However, perhaps this is short-term thinking. My personal view is that the city must and should consider a strategic, integrated public transport system (initiated by both public and private bodies) that will allow bus, rail, light-rail and even water-bus networks interconnect on single ticket sales. The prospect of a whole underground rail system in Cork is indeed excessive – and unrequired – but in providing efficient and utilised services, the prospect of certain areas (like beneath Wilton/Bishopstown/CUH area) being provided with intermittent underground would indeed be suited – before resurfacing at say, Bishopstown Court (which may have a linked Park and Ride for West Cork commuters) and proceeding over-ground out to Ballincollig. The systems could interlink with docklands serving water-buses (which could proceed from Kennedy Quay to Univeristy College Cork main campus – providing a connection between established and a prospective campus at the docklands) and commuter rail services at Horgan’s Quay to Midleton, Cobh, Mallow and Blarney.
Along with the idea of a River Lee Flood Barrier (which will become essential in protecting both Cork city island and prospective developments/investments in the Docklands – which will become increaingly a particularly vulnerable area to flooding) – I believe we need to start thinking in this manner and stop dismissing such thought as unviable or unrealistic.
What ever does become of a future transport system for Cork, I hope that Cork doesn’t take the Dublin route of using a whole mish mash of transport systems.
In my mind, Dublin is a bit of a joke. It has, normal rail to some suburbs, DART to other places, Dublin Bus, LUAS and will soon have some form of Metro.
Cork should either go all LUAS or go all Metro. I would like to see it go all Metro if possible. It by far the cleaner option and keeps Trams etc off of the streets, helping to reduce traffic more than any LUAS system could. Sure, it would cost extra, but the benefits would be massive.
@lexington wrote:
😮
Along with the idea of a River Lee Flood Barrier (which will become essential in protecting both Cork city island and prospective developments/investments in the Docklands – which will become increaingly a particularly vulnerable area to flooding) – I believe we need to start thinking in this manner and stop dismissing such thought as unviable or unrealistic.
😎 Right on Lex, like I said before, the docklands is ripe for proper development if some sort of master plan is put in place including (as you mentioned) the provision of a flood barrier.
Joined up thinking is what is needed here, not piecemeal submissions to suit individual landowners to maximize profits to the detriment of the city as a whole?@lexington wrote:
😮 US-carrier Delta Airlines are in discussion with Cork Airport about the option of opening up a US route from the airport, however the stage of progression associated with the talks are unclear. The airline has identified Cork as one of its possible expansion options – the route could bring significant benefit in terms of both tourism and investment should it materialise.
*shortly I would hope to post some (restricted) details of an emerging aviation development associated with Cork – although preliminary in nature*
That all sounds very exciting. Make sure you keep us updated lex! Also, on the subject of the airport, I just read today that Aer Arann are beginning flights to Nantes (Brittany) in France instead of Angers. It’s sort of old news at this stage, but I wonder are Aer Arann trying to compete on the Nantes route with Ryanair who fly there from Shannon. I think the route will be popular as it’s the only route to Brittany without getting the ferry to Roscoff. It also saves on driving time down to Shannon (and back again) aswell as the cost of driving and parking your car down there too.
:confused: According to the Cork Economic Monitor, published by the Planning and Development Directorate, Cork City Council under section 3.5.11 “Derelict Sitesâ€, areas being developed under the Derelict Site Register include the Jacob’s Mill building at 4-5 Fr. Matthew Quay.
Has anybody information on how this site was put on the Derelict Site Register, how (if) it was purchased off same etc?@Micko wrote:
Cork should either go all LUAS or go all Metro. I would like to see it go all Metro if possible. It by far the cleaner option and keeps Trams etc off of the streets, helping to reduce traffic more than any LUAS system could. Sure, it would cost extra, but the benefits would be massive.
I think the best approach would be to develop a LUAS style system, but to use routes that could be cut-and-covered at a later date to take trams out of traffic if necessary. This approach has been used in a number of cities – Brussels, Antwerp, The Hague for example. It means that you get a network up and running more quickly than by digging out a metro network and realistically, I can’t imagine Cork needing more than the capacisty provided by a tram, it might just help if trams could be separated from other traffic in the long run.
I would also be highly opposed to any tramlines on Pana. Sending them down the quays on the southside of the North Channel should be perfectly adequate.
@A-ha wrote:
That all sounds very exciting. Make sure you keep us updated lex! Also, on the subject of the airport, I just read today that Aer Arann are beginning flights to Nantes (Brittany) in France instead of Angers. It’s sort of old news at this stage, but I wonder are Aer Arann trying to compete on the Nantes route with Ryanair who fly there from Shannon. I think the route will be popular as it’s the only route to Brittany without getting the ferry to Roscoff. It also saves on driving time down to Shannon (and back again) aswell as the cost of driving and parking your car down there too.
I believe this decision was related to problems with Angers Airport rather than any desire to compete with Ryanair. They also shifted their Manchester-Angers flights to Nantes.
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