developments in cork
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@lexington wrote:
🙂
🙁 I don’t think Aer Arann get it…Excuse my ignorance here Lex but why do you think that Aer Arann don’t get it??………..presume you think there is potnetial for both of them to operate on the service??
What annoys me about Cork airport at the moment is that the big 2, Ryanair and Aerlingus don’t appear to have much interest in it except for jumping on other routes that have been proven successful by other airlines (Aer Arann, Jet Magic). They don’t seem to realise the potential that Cork has for other mainland European routes. Good to see Jet2 come on board but again it’s a British route (Newcastle)!
@Leesider wrote:
What annoys me about Cork airport at the moment is that the big 2, Ryanair and Aerlingus don’t appear to have much interest in it except for jumping on other routes that have been proven successful by other airlines (Aer Arann, Jet Magic). They don’t seem to realise the potential that Cork has for other mainland European routes.
You’ve hit the nail on the hear there Leeside. Aer lingus and Ryanair are only interested in Cork Airport to keep other budget airlines from taking off there (excuse the pun). They come in, destroy the market in a few years and then drop back again once the competition is fought off.
Note also O’Leary from Ryanair has said that the proposed 2nd terminal at Dublin airport is overprised and that they could build one cheaper. That may be so, but ryanair, on the main, fly into sheds in the middle of nowhere. Do we want a decent terminal or a budget one?
Does anybody know whats going on at the Museum in Fitzgerald Park. The new extension is open and working well. The place is even open on Saturdays now (can’t believe it took them that long to figure it out!).
My question is, what is happening to the old museum? Is it to be refurbished for more museum space?This is competition of the worst kind.
There were 9 flights a day to Dublin. Soon there wil be 3. And this is good for the consumer how?Clearly this route will be cross-subsidised and make a loss until Aer Arran move out altogether, leaving Ryanair free to charge whatever they feel like,
Shades of “Go” out of Dublin from a few years back?
@Leesider wrote:
Excuse my ignorance here Lex but why do you think that Aer Arann don’t get it??………..presume you think there is potnetial for both of them to operate on the service??
IMO they don’t get it because they are giving up the one competitive advantage they have over Ryanair – their frequency. Sure, they probably had to scale back, but their flight timings aren’t going to pick up much business traffic now. They’d have been as well off pulling off the route as going back to 3 flights a day.
they are giving up the one competitive advantage they have over Ryanair
Perhaps not. If they held on for a year with frequent flights, they could well end up losing a lot of money on the route. By reacting immediately, they keep some form of foot hold in Cork, but one they can hold onto for a long period of time. If Ryanair want to persist, they can, but their predatory move has already been counter acted, and negated to an extent.
Is there any role for the aviation regulator in this?
@d_d_dallas wrote:
For those interested some pics of a rarely seen view – inside Jacob’s Mill which after 40 years of dereliction is undergoing renewal and to my mind is the most emblematic development in the city.
I’m really looking forward to seeing that finished, hope the external finishing materials will be nice. To me, that’s almost one of Cork’s ‘signature views’, looking through the trees on O’Sullivan’s Quay, at the quirky buildings overhanging the river, Parliament bridge and this building in the background.
Pity nothing’s been done with that quayside yet – even if it just meant new railings and footpath.
@Leesider wrote:
Excuse my ignorance here Lex but why do you think that Aer Arann don’t get it??………..presume you think there is potnetial for both of them to operate on the service??
Well yes I do. First off, I’m a strong advocate of market lberalisation and competition – in capitalist terms, Ryanair is something of an icon – however, as a self-proclaimed supporter of competition, an important part of any healthy market is choice. A firm I input into had a niche development scheme that had the potential to soak up the market place for it’s targeted sector – quite comfortably, through the idea I was involved in, the firm could have approached the market and cleaned it. However, it was realised that doing so would strategically disbenefit the creation of new markets/demand niches consequent of this activity. One must realise that given room to breathe – a one market creates alternate options, “trends” which allow for further innovation and market advantage which allow a firm feed off of and grow. Essentially, competition is beneficial for all concerned and market dominance by one firm can create a monopolistic situation which often provides stagnant or lumbering market stimulation. Ryanair’s advocation for competition, then actions which are essentially destructive growth options, are self-contradicting in nature. Indeed, a firm should strive to assert its position as high up the food chain as possible – and cut throat competition is indeed that, cut throat – but preying on fledglings is not strictly healthy competition. What Aer Arann originally recognised, but now seems to have forgotten, is that the predominant usage of the Cork-Dublin route (weekdays at least) is formal (over 53%) – generally, what is demanded of a service is flexibility, and in this sense, frequency. A business person, say, wishes to be at the meeting desk before 9am in Dublin, so he catches the 7am flight up, and be home on the last flight out at 10pm. Ryanair are offering 3 flights a day (Cork to Dublin: 06.45, 09.15, 16.40 and Dublin to Cork: 08:00, 11:05, 17:55). Aer Arann services 9 weekday flights a day (Cork to Dublin: 07.00, 08.00, 0900, 1000, 1200, 1500, 1700, 1800, 2000 and Dublin to Cork: 0730, 0830, 0930, 1330, 1430, 1630, 1830, 1930, 2230). Frequency is Aer Arann’s best asset here – they can achieve this by utilising small, quick turnaround aircraft like the ATR42 and AT72 which packs in about 60 passengers at the most. Ryanair are using larger 189-seater 737-800’s whose higher capacity can offer reduced fares but also limits their frequency options. Aer Arann also distinguish themselves on other little things like, easy-on easy-off boarding, free newspaper on early morning “business flights” etc etc, it all factors in – can you see Ryanair offering a free IT on their 0.645 flight to Dublin?! It’s the corporate sense that attracts many business personnel and the associated freequency that allows them travel up or return at a time suited to them – this may sometimes be confused with snobbery, but that’s a simplified, perhaps naive assumption to make. 0.99c one way fares (plus taxes, fees etc) aren’t the be all and end all. Aer Arann may have made a ‘safe’ bet, but essentially, in hanging out their white flag in advance of the battle, they have handed Ryanair a percentage of their market share on a silver platter without Ryanair even having to do anything. That’s not ‘healthy’ competition.
Ryanair and Aer Lingus quite frankly, have little genuine interest in Cork Airport – they’re publicised ‘commitments’ are much more subject to circumstance and picking up the slack created by other airlines before them. Perhaps the greatest initiative Aer Lingus has shown Cork was the launch of its Warsaw service – recognising the sizeable Polish population in Cork and taking advantage of it’s potential. Aer Arann and Easyjet have perhaps shown a little more ‘genuine’ interest in Cork – for the former, Cork was a serious growth base and contributed significantly to that airline’s organic development. A innovative airline carves new pathways, a lazy airline just picks up the slack. Competition is about distinction and innovation, not replication and stagnation. Remember Samsung for years replicated the innovation of Sony – but its serious growth phase sparked as a result of organic R&D fuelling distinction and ultimately its quality. The hope is however, if Ryanair experience success on these new routes, it will fuel their interest in developing further – hopefully continental routes – from Cork. The pessimist says however, if they had been so successful on their London routes, why weren’t such expansion proposals more forthcoming in the past? (And I have considered market and fee issues).
d_d_dallas – I agree that the ESB would not likely wind-up Marina Point, if anything, we are approaching an energy defecit. Industries in Little Island, the city centre, growing population and general increase in electricity usage all adds to the pressure.good response and I have to say I agree with most of it. Whether Aer Arann should have kept on all their flights is debateable but dropping it to 3 from 9 seems a bit over the top. In fairness Ryanair will appeal to a different type of client, ie. those getting connecting Ryanair flights from Dublin, match goers etc.. Aer Arann will still appeal to the business tripper due to the above reasons given by lexington!
Have heard alot of crap from Ryanair as regards developing the regions but yet they have never come into Cork, not in the way you would have expected them to. Maybe they are waiting for developments with the old terminal and are just testing the waters with the new routes as regards the CAA. For a semi state body aerlingus always disappoint me as well with their lack of ambition with Cork……..one can only assume politics plays a big part here!!
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Just wondering what is the state of play with the Jury’s site?? Have the cranes gone up or is it just demolition work at the moment?? Haven’t been down to the motherland in a while!
I think to expect Ryanair to develop the regions is not really realistic; Michael O’Leary is 100% in his PR when talks about delivering on his strategy of increasing aviation usage in general and delivering to his shareholders in particular. I am delighted that Ryanair have developed a Dublin Cork route as it proves that demand exists and it will hopefully mark the begining of the end for subsidied regional aviation in this country. I have just returned from Latvia where the local low cost carrier has developed Riga airport from 500,000 pax to 2,500,000 pax in the space of 3 years.
Subsidising Aer Arran to fly a small number of government officials and business people to places like Donegal, Knock and Galway is quite simply unsustainable and is gross mis-management of the public finances. In contrast a City like Cork is experiencing sub-standard route development which is also unsustainable.
I’m not sure what to make of it all. On one hand, I hate to see the larger companies like Aer Lingus expressing an “interest” in Cork, when they really don’t give a toss (with the exception of Warsaw as previously noted), but on the other hand, Ryanair can offer fares for less then half the price of Aer Arann, however, it’s obvious that Ryanair didn’t start the route in Cork’s interests, it only did it to get it’s revenge on Aer Arann for taking the Kerry-Dublin route right from under their noses. Ryanair is marketing the route so it can compete with Irish Rail, I’d prefer to take the train any day…. they are more frequent and it brings you straight into the city. How much is a taxi from the airport to the city centre in Dublin? Flying will probably cost you in and around €100 by the time you get into the city, and considering check in times and what have you, the train seems faster aswell (fast for Irish standars anyway). But I have always hated Aer Lingus since they managed to close down JetMagic. The airline flew to places like Milan, Brussels and Nice and other places unknown to Cork before them. Aer Lingus then began operating flights to Milan and Nice, selling fares for half the price and more frequent until JetMagic had to finally close down. What’s Aer Lingus next move….. they fu*king close down the routes. They are such a horrible airline and I wouldn’t fly with them if they begged me. I know they did recently open up the Nice route again, but still, it took them long enough. I miss JetMagic, I never got to fly with them, but I know they gave you free champagne in large leather seats, lol, I bet thats why they called their Frequent Flyer programme “Cloud 9”.
@A-ha wrote:
But I have always hated Aer Lingus since they managed to close down JetMagic. The airline flew to places like Milan, Brussels and Nice and other places unknown to Cork before them. Aer Lingus then began operating flights to Milan and Nice, selling fares for half the price and more frequent until JetMagic had to finally close down.
JetMagic wasn’t a bad concept – and it is one that could have been quite viable, however the airline management made a number of fatal errors. First off, the lack of core development routes – to encourage usage, an airline must provide well scheduled link routes – destinations that allow for connections as well as serve a final destination demand, for example, Frankfurt-am-Main, Paris CDG, London Heathrow/Gatwick, Amsterdam Schipol, even Zurich – these are well developed hub destinations that allow leisure and business travellers make onward connections. They serve a dual purpose. The airline should ideally provide early morning flights, to allow for connections, and evening return flights, to allow time for connecting passengers to make the flight home. Flying to London City, though ideologically sound, in actuality was flawed – JetMagic’s strategy did not provide the necessary times to satisfy business travellers. Also, the demand was generally insufficient and more often than not, you’ll actual find higher business traveller demand off-hat to Heathrow than City. Also, JetMagic should have competitively encouraged travellers to utilise Cork as a hub for their onward journeys – pitching the relatively fast transit times afforded by the airport’s size – in comparison to say, Dublin and Belfast. JetMagic spread with a number of secondary routes too fast when it should have focused and developed sustainable routes – Barcelona, Alicante and Nice were good calls. I don’t think you can blame Aer Lingus for JetMagic’s downfall. I think this is an excuse that provided an easy culprit to satisfy some people. For all the experience JetMagic’s management brought with it, it made core mistakes in it’s development. The airline should also have facilitated larger capacity aircraft (eg. Airbus A318 etc) on the aforementioned core connection routes – the Embraer aircraft were perhaps sufficient on some routes. There are numerous other reasons and causes for the airline’s demise – however this is not the platform and I think I for one have discussed enough airline business for a while.
Back to the thread nature…
Leesider – Bowen Construction have erected their 1st tower crane on site and the hotel element is proceeding. The western section is being erected while the basement car-park elements are being founded. The remaining area of the hotel will be built over the basement once complete. A 2nd tower crane will be erected for Block B, fronting the river, later on. Basement excavations will proceed first before this enacts. Bowen intend to have the hotel completed on schedule for next Autumn (2006). The total project will take a 3 years to complete.
Given that we are on the subject of Cork Airport, what is the reaction to the new terminal? Last time I passed through, the cladding and glazing were almost complete. It does look good, but this should be a given considering the cost. HOK were the principal architects I believe, and I imagine the interior is well designed and functional. Originally, the plans called for the addition of a new control tower and a taxiway paralell to the runway, but these were ditched (probably not much need for them in any case).
Leaving aside the fact that the airport was built on top of a hill (fog, crosswinds, etc), there is limited room to expand the runways! And a new upgraded CAT III nevigation system would be expensive to implement given the geographic location.
Operationally, my real hope was EasyJet would expand their services and develop a base in Cork, and I am sure that Ryanair had them in mind when going on the Gatwick route. Aer Lingus have drastically improved their service in Cork over the past two years and they certainly cannot be blamed for the collapse of Jet Magic. I think Aer Arann got too complacent and their service standards were slipping in any case. Frequency was their real advantage but since that will soon deteriorate, the train looks like the best option once the hourly service starts off. Interesting times lie ahead.
Finally, an American friend recently flew into Cork, hired a car, and all was going swimmingly till they hit ‘The Magic Roundabout’. He called it the ‘the gates of hell’ but survived to tell the tale. I pity anyone, local or visitor, who has to navigate that. Surely it is the worst road design in Ireland.Furthering on from my early post on Joe O’Donovan’s acquisitions of late, it has also now been confirmed that in addition to the freehold sale of Pound City, through agents Lisney which was also stated in the earlier post, adjoining premises No.55 Patrick’s Street has also been purchased by the investor. This new premises will add nicely to Mr. O’Donovan’s other purchase on Market Lane, The Oyster Tavern.
To re-cap the news see the previous post here ->: Joe O’Donovan’s Big Plan?
Also, previously noted early in the thread, the sale on the Coca-Cola Bottling premises on Carrigrohane Road was only now confirmed to staff through SIPTU. The sale was handled by Lisney and is believed to have fetched in and around the 5m euro mark.See that post here: Coca-Cola Premises Sale
*UPDATES*🙂 Frinailla are set to apply for the conversion of a storage unit along Allinet Lane which adjoins their CitySquare (Ladyswell) project (due for ABP decision on October 13th 2005) – the proposal will see the unit revamped to include 2 new apartments.
🙂 Aldi Stores are set to apply to CorkCoCo to develop a new store on a 1.26acre site, formerly Dean and Chapter Land of Cobh, in Cloyne.
@corcaighboy wrote:
Finally, an American friend recently flew into Cork, hired a car, and all was going swimmingly till they hit ‘The Magic Roundabout’. He called it the ‘the gates of hell’ but survived to tell the tale. I pity anyone, local or visitor, who has to navigate that. Surely it is the worst road design in Ireland.
Do you know I find the one at Bishopstown Court worse. If you’re going from Bandon towards Douglas and go in the indicated lane, you end up going back to Bandon…
As regards the aviation issue. Aer Lingus were the first airline on a number of their routes out of Cork – London, Paris, Amsterdam, Faro/Warsaw, Munich and Malaga.
Aside from the business-model problems associated with JetMagic, they were simply woefully undercapitalised. They would have needed twice their capital level to keep their business going until they were hitting sustainability.
just wondering does anyone know is there any concrete plans for the loft site because it says in the cornmarket street master plan that development of this site should corispound with the development of the guys site?I also read recently that owen o callaghans plans for an evant centre at mahon point are looking good after they carried out a feasability study on the site?
@daniel_7 wrote:
just wondering does anyone know is there any concrete plans for the loft site because it says in the cornmarket street master plan that development of this site should corispound with the development of the guys site?I also read recently that owen o callaghans plans for an evant centre at mahon point are looking good after they carried out a feasability study on the site?
The Loft site will be redeveloped at some future stage, incorporating the Coal Quay bar. It is earmarked for higher order retail use and will likely extend vertically while incorporating the existing, protected limestone facade. Herlihy’s sold the Loft site for a sum believed to be in or above 2.5m euro, while Joe O’Donovan also purchased the Coal Quay bar next door for a figure understood to be about 4m euros.
As for OCP plans on an Event Centre at Mahon Point, it seems doubtful. Consider site size, access, land type, proximity to residential (400 new units being developed by McCarthy Developments at Jacobs Island directly next-door), parking etc etc. Although I do agree that the waterfront nature of the site would be attractive, it would be an exceptionally tight/tricky fit. The original plan was for a predominantly public-string (EU etc) funded trade centre.
@lexington wrote:
The Loft site will be redeveloped at some future stage, incorporating the Coal Quay bar. It is earmarked for higher order retail use and will likely extend vertically while incorporating the existing, protected limestone facade. Herlihy’s sold the Loft site for a sum believed to be in or above 2.5m euro, while Joe O’Donovan also purchased the Coal Quay bar next door for a figure understood to be about 4m euros.
As for OCP plans on an Event Centre at Mahon Point, it seems doubtful. Consider site size, access, land type, proximity to residential (400 new units being developed by McCarthy Developments at Jacobs Island directly next-door), parking etc etc. Although I do agree that the waterfront nature of the site would be attractive, it would be an exceptionally tight/tricky fit. The original plan was for a predominantly public-string (EU etc) funded trade centre.
I dont think i’d like the idea of any event centre at Mahon point. For one traffic is bad enough as it is without 4000 more cars having to add to it. I think it should be kept as close to the city centre and docklands as possible. The new Water street bridge should help facilitate the plan at the showgrounds.
As for Cornmarkt street, i think a development at the Loft/Coal quay bar could be really nice but it would have to be respectful and really classy. I think a little postmodern Romanseque could do the trick here. Maybe, i dunno.
Any sign of work starting on the Grand parade plaza yet??? I thought it said in the news like, last April work was due to commence in a few weeks. Its amazing the amount of other big projects that have come and gone in the space this project has lain idle, surely excavations must be long over! I though i saw them pouring in concrete for the basement carpark ages ago.
@ewankennedy wrote:
As for Cornmarkt street, i think a development at the Loft/Coal quay bar could be really nice but it would have to be respectful and really classy. I think a little postmodern Romanseque could do the trick here. Maybe, i dunno.
One site on Cornmarket Street, which has potential for a nice infill mixed use – possibly retail in the main – development is that infill site between the Paintwell Limited premises and The Loft. Currently it serves as a parking area and pedestrian corridor onto North Main Street. The site backs onto the rear of a number of structures facing North Main Street. A clever, stylish development could potentially be realised here – whilst maintaining and promoting the pedestrian corridor route between the 2 streets (Cornmarket and North Main Street). Consideration will have to be applied to the Bodega structure, given its nature, but depending on the shoulder height proposed for any redevelopment of the Loft & Coal Quay Bar, conceivably, a new building of 6-storeys (on par with the Rockfell proposal across the street) could be constructed here with a nice mixed of retail, leisure, restaurant and perhaps some residential elements on the upper floors.
Infill site just out of frame – to the right of Paintwell Limited premises.
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