developments in cork
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Just for your own interest – here are a selection of images on the various projects proposed for the 16 Lavitts Quay site over the years. All designed by RORSA.
The original proposal of new Irish Examiner/Evening Echo HQ – applied for back in late 2001.
After the land swap deal with Howard Holdings (under the SPV Ellesmere Properties) the developers retained RORSA and designed this 7-storey 125-bedroom hotel for the Comfort Inn brand.
CCC Planning Dept. sought Significant Further Information on the project following reservations concerning the projects design, layout and height. In June, RORSA submitted revised plans which featured a reduction in height, bedroom numbers, better site utilisation, revised basement features and revised aesthetics.The decision is due tomorrow. I had expected news tonight, but unfortunately it will have to wait until tomorrow morning.
Sincere apologises related to the scan qualities.
Are you saying that because these equally terrible proposals were made earlier on for the Lavitt’s Quay area, that the current situation – with an existing overscaled building on the quayfront and an overscaled proposal behind the quayfront – is somehow justified?? – That is complete nonsense.
At the end of the day, the only thing that should be considered is the proper planning and development of the area, and in no way could any of these proposals or the existing building at 21 Lavitt’s Quay be construed to be proper planning and development.
For those who don’t know Cork & are presuming that Lavitt’s Quay is in an outer area where bland montrosities and discontinuity of scale might happen, the arrow on the map shows where it is; right in the central core with a dense fabric of older buildings all around and the incredibly historic Paul Street area just behind:
And the existing yoke – euphemistically named “No. 21 Lavitt’s Quay” .…….serious, serious integration problem………:
That hotel’s been granted by the Council…..I think that they have changed the elevation by droping a couple of units……as for the integration of No 16, I don’t think O’Callaghans wanted to keep that, I think that they were encouraged to do so by the Council. Personally I think it allows for a beter architectural statement (not saying that Lavitts Quay is award stuff) if some of those older buildings are demolished; I accept that there is a balance to be struck, I just think that sometimes older buildings irrespective of merit / condition / potential reuse are seen as being important. I mean, just have a look at the recent NIAH for Cork, some classic stuff in there but there is also somerelatively recent (1950’s) building that personally I wouldn’t look twice at (from a preservation viewpoint – record yes, preserve no).
Anyway, I think the problem with Lavitt’s Quay is the Opera House, anything else is an improvement……
😎 Howard Holdings (Ellesmere Properties) have been greenlit by CCC to develop the former TCH lands at Lavitts Quay to the west and rear of No.16 Lavitts Quay. The protected structure at No.16 (which still possesses a run-down but remarkably intricate interior detail) will be integrated into the new development with ground-floor cafe usage and upper floor office usage. The revised design for the 7-storey hotel proposed 114 bedrooms (as oppose to the 125 in the original submission), however some of these units have since be conditioned. Although Comfort Inn stated that 114 represented the minimum number of rooms necessary to allow hotel viability, it yet remains to be seen whether they will settle for the conditions or seek appeal. The hotel will also allow for retail space and a basement parking facility. The development will provide a degree of continuity to the quayside, along with 21 Lavitts Quay and a redeveloped Cork Opera House (in the works). R. Arthur’s corner premises on Half Moon Street and Lavitts Quay, may be subject to sale in the coming months (as rumours have it). More details later.
Devin – if you read my earlier posts, I think you should be able to determine my feelings on the design of this development. The only reasons I posted the above images of the various developments proposed for this site was to allow for those interested to note the other options that had existed, as a matter of record. I don’t believe I express one opinion over the other on that post – rather just a summary of the alterations made. Howard Holdings have produced better material than this before and so have RORSA and I really think much more could have been achieved.– also just as a matter of clarity, so that no confusion is created between the subject buildings, OCP’s HQ building is 21 Lavitts Quay, with its former HQ facade incorporated into the new building. No.16 Lavitts Quay is the PS which is part and to be integrated into the Howard Holdings development. Thanks for the image Devin, it gives another interesting perspective on the site as is and its relationship to 21. However, also consider the quayside prior to 21’s development – if you have any comparitive images of that it may be interesting to assess. Also, 21 should not be viewed as a stand-alone project, but rather as part of a quayside masterplan which includes the Opera House, No.16 and the Coal Quay buildings to the west. Thats not a justification or anything, but rather an alternative perspective. 🙂
Devin,
from your image, yes the OCP development looks monstrous, yet the Opera House is just out of sight to the left which puts the quayside in perspective. Also there is a hideous multistory carpark just behind the OCP development which was quite visible prior to this construction. This quayside along with Patricks Qy and Merchants Qy can accommodate a slightly larger massing than the older structures provide. That said they should fit in. I disapprove of the impact of the OCP building when viewed from Academy St where it’s overbearing nature becomes quite apparent.😎 You may remember sometime ago I noted that Killarney-based Oyster Developments were pushing further into the Cork market, and that they were in preplanning for another large-scale development. Well, again using Sabine Wittman’s Dungarvan-based The e-Project Architects, Oyster Developments look set to lodge an application for a 7-storey office development along Deane Street, directly across the road from the landmark 9-storey office development in planning by DAT Partnerships, and designed by Coughlan de Keyser. The site borders the rear of the newly refurbished Bus Station at Anderson’s Quay, and adjoins No.8 Parnell Place, a protected structure.
The office development will stem to a height equal to nearby No.6 Lapps Quay, but will not be higher than CentrePoint, the DAT Partnerships building.
It is building will house office space over retail facilities. I will have images soon (unfortunately I didn’t receive them sooner, but I think that’s on account of my opinions expressed regarding The e-Project’s design for the Capitol Cineplex redevelopment – oops! :rolleyes: – by way of interest, the Further Information requested on the Capitol redevelopment is expected to be lodged within the next month).
Below are some site images, and an image of the DAT Partnerships building across the road from the Oyster Developments proposal. I have not yet seen the application design for the Oyster project, but I should hope, at the very very least, it is of or above the standards set by CentrePoint and other nearby projects.
No.8 Parnell Place – I have some concerns at how the development will dominate this important protected structure, but I will wait until I see the final design, who knows, I may be surprised.
1st Image shows perspective from Bus Station – looking West to East toward City Quarter (seen in background) 2nd Image – shows relationship of the site (right) to No.6 Lapps Quay in background, with CentrePoint (9-storey DAT Partnerships building) site seen to the left (with billboards).The application will request permission to demolish the structures to the rear of No.8 Parnell Place, among which includes a pleasant brick former-bakery chimney. Although I welcome the site’s redevelopment, the design will have to be something special to add rather than detract from this sensitive site. We’ll wait and see.
The innovative CentrePoint, 9-storey office development by DAT Partnerships. To give you some perspective, this image is shows the western elevation, with No.6 Lapps Quay to the left (south), the Bus Station to the right (north) and Oyster Developments proposal to the west (behind the CentrePoint building). It will be important for the Oyster proposal not to detract from this new building either.I was a bit wary of No 21 Lavitt’s Quay, but seeing it now complete, it’s one of my favourite new developments in Cork. That entire quayside has looked dreadful for decades – with the nearby Opera House one of the worst of a bad lot. Any redevelopment of the area would be welcome in my book, and No. 21 is one of the best in Cork.
As for the greater height, bring it on. If it leads to other buildings nearby of a similar height, is that a bad thing? Would buildings such as the Roches Stores, Brown Thomas buildings etc. ever have been built if we had the same attitude towards height then as we do now?
And if the height differs, is that a problem either? I think (provided new developments are top-notch) a contrast in heights between new and old side-by-side can be quite striking. To be honest, I think much of Dublin and Limerick’s riverside developments have been quite dull, with endless adjoining buildings of the same or similar height.
Having said all that, I think the proposals for No. 16 Lavitt’s Quay are very poor; being big is ok, but being big and bland isn’t. IMO.
@who_me wrote:
And if the height differs, is that a problem either? I think a contrast in heights between new and old side-by-side can be quite striking.
Provided they can integrate and co-exist happily…….which is not the case on Lavitt’s Quay in my opinion.
ill probably be a lone voice here but i actually like 21 lavitts qy. its impact to the rear a far less significant that the impact the new howard holdings hotel will have. the nice thing about paul street and its tributary lanes is that the seem to be pleasantly isolated in their own timewarped microcosm and i think thats part of their appeal.
it is a pity howard didnt just move onto a different practice, not that ive anything against rorsa but clearly effort was lacking from the no16 design. imagination could have immensely enhanced this site and quayside. i suppose it was a matter of taking advantage of rorsa site knowledge and getting an application in there fast. i fear this building will be another one of those designs people will throw their eyes to heaven each time they pass it in coming years. i dont think 21 lavitts qy beckons the same. its actually quite a clever well finished building and seems to embrace a variety of scales, curvatures and materials which given a bit of variety to what could quite easily have been another bland office building. paddy cashman and clan did a good job. the blandness of the elevations at no16, which tries to embrace a seemingly 1930s-esque deco style using those odd windows, is disappointing. at the very least, greater care to elevational treatements and their vertices could have been afforded with very little cost differentials. pity. but then again maybe we’ll all be fooled on its completion and itll surprise us all.
i personally am aware of proposed designs for phase 3 of the opera house redevelopment with a private developer on board and in fairness, the plans are showing promise and imagination. hopefully the entire quay front will allow for some powerful statements come the next few years. also i hear a private developer is chatting with joe gavin et al about kyrls quay – ooo!
I have to agree with you, I think its good as well but perhaps a bit to busy in places. Interesting thing for that area along the Quay is what happens to the William Clarke Building (I think thats what the red brick yoke adjacent to the entrance to the Paul Street Car Park is called).
As for the opera house, I know that Murray O’Laoire did a fair enough job with the front of the building but I always fear that trying to fix what was a bad looking building is a bit like putting lipstick on a pig…..
@pier39 wrote:
ill probably be a lone voice here but i actually like 21 lavitts qy. its impact to the rear a far less significant that the impact the new howard holdings hotel will have. the nice thing about paul street and its tributary lanes is that the seem to be pleasantly isolated in their own timewarped microcosm and i think thats part of their appeal.
it is a pity howard didnt just move onto a different practice, not that ive anything against rorsa but clearly effort was lacking from the no16 design. imagination could have immensely enhanced this site and quayside. i suppose it was a matter of taking advantage of rorsa site knowledge and getting an application in there fast. i fear this building will be another one of those designs people will throw their eyes to heaven each time they pass it in coming years. i dont think 21 lavitts qy beckons the same. its actually quite a clever well finished building and seems to embrace a variety of scales, curvatures and materials which given a bit of variety to what could quite easily have been another bland office building. paddy cashman and clan did a good job. the blandness of the elevations at no16, which tries to embrace a seemingly 1930s-esque deco style using those odd windows, is disappointing. at the very least, greater care to elevational treatements and their vertices could have been afforded with very little cost differentials. pity. but then again maybe we’ll all be fooled on its completion and itll surprise us all.
i personally am aware of proposed designs for phase 3 of the opera house redevelopment with a private developer on board and in fairness, the plans are showing promise and imagination. hopefully the entire quay front will allow for some powerful statements come the next few years. also i hear a private developer is chatting with joe gavin et al about kyrls quay – ooo!
@lexington wrote:
The innovative CentrePoint, 9-storey office development by DAT Partnerships. To give you some perspective, this image is shows the western elevation, with No.6 Lapps Quay to the left (south), the Bus Station to the right (north) and Oyster Developments proposal to the west (behind the CentrePoint building). It will be important for the Oyster proposal not to detract from this new building either.
i can’t get my head around this thing at all. any better images?
Yes, indeed might I respectfully ask in the earlier context of improving on LATSOCL if it is possible to post better resolution images here that those often going up. Considering it is such an image-rich thread, and effort and time is already put into scanning images, it’s not much more difficult to get a better res. Or invest in a better scanner, they’re only 50 quid in Aldi you know!
More often than not it is more irritating to have a poor quality image than no image at all. It’d improve the thread no end to have higher quality images.
Thanks.Oh go on then, here’s a smilie 🙂
it looks like an art gallery i did in second year. or at least a bad elevation of what i designed. and what’s with the go-faster fin on the right hand side?
@Graham Hickey wrote:
Yes, indeed might I respectfully ask in the earlier context of improving on LATSOCL if it is possible to post better resolution images here that those often going up. Considering it is such an image-rich thread, and effort and time is already put into scanning images, it’s not much more difficult to get a better res. Or invest in a better scanner, they’re only 50 quid in Aldi you know!
More often than not it is more irritating to have a poor quality image than no image at all. It’d improve the thread no end to have higher quality images.
Thanks.Oh go on then, here’s a smilie 🙂
Point accepted. I genuinely am looking into improving their quality – for a long time I couldn’t get the images up at all or at least compressed to a capable size, so the next stage is adjusting clarity. I agree that it will form an important part of improving the quality of this thread. There’s nothing worse than trying to assess a piece of architecture and not being able to view it clearly.
That Centrepoint building seems to me like a wave or an olympic torch perhaps??? i know the site and i am perplexed as to how they intend to construct such a complicated looking building on such a tiny plot. I read somewhere, here?, that it hung over the pathways. I would think more photographs are needed to understand how the building looks from the quayside and how it affects the other buildings in the area.
I’m sure I saw very similar deisgn building in Brussels or Strasbourg, its one of the European Commission Buildings, or the European Court of Human Rights (Basically the European something or other!!)
lexington – is the DAT Partnership image shown an Eastern elevation? With No. 6 Lapps Quay +Oliver Plunkett St to the left and bus station to the right +behind?
What do people think of this? As much as can be understood of the building from the image anyhow? I think it has some potential – although i would have preferred something a little sharper and triangular – with a bit more definition – in relation to the specific nature of the site – this building looks like its trying to escape the site, as opposed to reflecting its particular configuration – however i would be fairly positive – but would love to see more images – as well as more impressions of the E-Project’s proposals next door
@sw101 wrote:
it looks like an art gallery i did in second year. or at least a bad elevation of what i designed. and what’s with the go-faster fin on the right hand side?
all it needs now is a bass tube and some bling bling rims!!!!! ‘pimp my office building’, y’all.
like bunch i was expecting a flatiron building type structure on the site given its triangular shape and though i think such a sharp styled structure could have risen higher given its sharper punctuation of the skyline, i have to say i was pleasantly surprised when i saw this image. ive also seen a montage perspective of the building from eglinton st and from that viewpoint its looks a little bulky. from a birdseye perspective the go-faster fin actually teardrops the building off nicely.
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