developments in cork
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The CPO for the Showgrounds is designed, in the first instance to allow for a large public park at the site, capable of holding outdoor concerts, circuses, agricultural shows and ‘live at the marquee’ type events, as well as allowing a use as a genuine public park- something which the current tenants have not been able to offer.
As a secondary issue, the move should make it much more probable that an agreement can be made between GAA and CCC regarding the relatively small amount of space required by the former for a complete redevelopment of Pairc Ui Caoimh.
In my mind, the Munster Agricultural Society were a very lazy tenant, unwilling to come to agreement with their landlords and neighbours for the good of the City as a whole. The Munster Showground site was grossly under utilised and is in need of a radical overhaul.
The development comes as CCC are calling for submissions for their South Docks Local Area Plan.
Also, news this morning that CCC have abandoned plans for a park and ride facility at Tinkers Cross, Mayfield. A recent report commissioned by the Council had reccomended that this was the best site for such a facility, however sustained public opposition put an end to plans.I find all of this news about the Showgrounds very intriguing.
Talk of the City Manager’s wish to develop the ‘amenity’ value of the land is, to me, a smokescreen. The landfill site on the South Link (de dump) has long been earmarked as the future location for circuses (what’s plural for circus!?), funderland, concerts etc. (there is a pedestrian culvert built under the dual-carriageway from the Park’n’Ride to the site to assist this aspiration). And why would any promoter wish to run a ‘Live at the Marquee’ event once Mr. Gavin’s pet project of an event centre on Horgan’s Quay is constructed? This is all most bizarre – the GAA only need a strip of land running along the southern boundary of the current main stand to facilitate their enlargement plans.
Perhaps CCC are merely attempting to block Fleming’s desire to get their hands on the site – which is fair enough – but the question is why? What will be more interesting will be to see who REALLY benefits from this (if the CPO is successful) in the longer run
@theblimp wrote:
What will be more interesting will be to see who REALLY benefits from this (if the CPO is successful) in the longer run
I think you’re being unduly cynical blimp. The plans for a massive public park at the showgrounds site have been around for a while in various forms and recognised in various dockland plans isued by CCC (see image above). Expect this to be rubber stamped in the forthcoming South Docks Local Area Plan.
I would not be overly worried about the prospect of a city the size of Cork having two large public parks. Indeed, in the long term, another large park should be forthcoming to the west of the city. Cork is in dire need of such green, well-maintained public open space.
It is not surprising that CCC would seek to accomodate the GAA at their current site, given the income generating reality and potential of a major sports arena- as opposed to mooted plans to shift operations to the Blarney area. In that light, it is obvious from recent refurbishment work at Croke Park and forthcoming work at Landsdowne Road, that to allow large scale (or even small scale) residential development around such venues is asking for trouble in the long run.I must say I hope that CCC try and direct the GAA somewhat in the redevelopment of Pairc Ui Caoimh. The officership of the current Cork County Board are fairly conservative and I would worry they would only be interested in spending a couple of million on remedial work. The truth is the the Park is in need of a complete overhaul and possibly even should be knocked and rebuilt. It is presently a third world stadium with benches (sized for ants) instead of seats, etc. For this reason, I would actually love if the City Council would actually take their involvement a step further……
My own view, and it is a bit of an obsession of mine, is that a state of the art 40,000 to 50,000 capacity stadium should be built on that site. Of this, at least 35,000 should be proper seating with corporate boxes etc. In fact if I had my way it would be all seated as I think the terracing that remains in, say, Croke Park really takes away from the overall appearance of it.
I think a stadium of this size would be viable in Cork if we are ambitious enough. Cork is a remarkable city in terms of sporting ability and support. At the moment that support is not being utilised. I know there are the hardy souls that go to Cork GAA league matches (mind you less than the 30,000 that will trek up to Thurles for championship matches), the 3,000 to 6,000 that will go to Turner’s Cross each week and the similar amount who go to Munster Celtic League matches in Musgrave Pk but I think you could increase these figures exponentially if there was one unified, state of the art, stadium in Cork. Quite frankly if such matches were turned into “events” in a new stadium (a la the “Croke Parke effect”) you would at least double and possibly multiply attendances x 4/5. These matches could keep the stadium ticking over but its real purpose could be for other, bigger but less regular, events.
I reckon that between hurling and football you could have at least 3 munster championship full houses a year. It would also be available for all-ireland quarter finals and the like. You could also have other one off GAA matches should as County Semis and Finals, Aussie Rules internationals and the like to provide other large attendances.
Equally, if Cork City could reap the benefits of larger gate receipts, given their current success and given their monopoly of Ireland’s best sporting catchment area, there is no reason why they could not dominate Irish football and, in the medium term, get into the Group stages of the Champion’s league – the financial benefits of this should be obvious to all. Moreover the FAI could definitely be prevailed upon to bring an international friendly or two to leeside every year.
On the rugby front again I think the venue could host Celtic league matches and the odd International and B international. Moreover, notwithstanding the proposed redevelopment of Thomond Park (which is the kind of half-measure redevoplment I fear will happen to Pairc Ui Caoimh), I think Munster European cup matches could be viable in Cork too especially if there are high yield coporate boxes. I know my employers, and many other companies, would snap up a box at this mooted venue in a heart beat if there was this kind of fare being served up (the idea of bringing clients to Heineken Cup matches or even The Champions League would whet any businessman’s appetite). Quite simply this kind of revenue would not be available to the IRFU, the GAA or the FAI in their current Munster bases.
All of the above does not also factor in the ability to hold concerts at the venue in summer months. Enough said.
Of course the BIG problem with the above is that the GAA own Pairc Ui Caoimh and will not want rugby and soccer there. However they cannmot build the kind of stadium described above on their own. Therefore what I would suggest is that the City Council seek to buy out the GAA and then lease back the land to be redeveloped as this new state of the art stadium. The private sector would obviously need to be involved and equally the main sports bodies would need to be involved financially as part stakeholders. I think this way the GAA rules diffiiculty would be circumvented. Equally the GAA would get a whopping sum they could invest as they please including the upgrade of Pairc Ui Rinn for smaller draw matches etc.
I know the above is rough and ready and can be torn apart by a cynic. Yes Cork City aren’t likely to be in the CL this year or next (but you never know!), yes Turner’s Cross, Thomond Park and Musgrave Park are getting partial mark-overs, yes Frank Murphy won’t be on board (one suspects!), yes there will be many other problems. The bottom line is this though. There are 500,000 people approx in the county. That number is rising. Many areas in Europe with that population but only a fraction of Cork’s sporting heritage have stadiums of this size. Cork companies have vast marketing budgets they would happily spend on corporate boxes and corporate entertainment generally at such a venue. Equally the location itself (on the harbour with a rail line that can be reinsatated easily, 1 mile ftom the city centre) is perfect. Think big people. The problems arfe all surmountable. With the right planning it would work.
@theblimp wrote:
I find all of this news about the Showgrounds very intriguing.
Talk of the City Manager’s wish to develop the ‘amenity’ value of the land is, to me, a smokescreen. The landfill site on the South Link (de dump) has long been earmarked as the future location for circuses (what’s plural for circus!?), funderland, concerts etc. (there is a pedestrian culvert built under the dual-carriageway from the Park’n’Ride to the site to assist this aspiration). And why would any promoter wish to run a ‘Live at the Marquee’ event once Mr. Gavin’s pet project of an event centre on Horgan’s Quay is constructed? This is all most bizarre – the GAA only need a strip of land running along the southern boundary of the current main stand to facilitate their enlargement plans.
Perhaps CCC are merely attempting to block Fleming’s desire to get their hands on the site – which is fair enough – but the question is why? What will be more interesting will be to see who REALLY benefits from this (if the CPO is successful) in the longer run
The promoters of “Live at the Marquee” are Aiken promotions who are 100% an indoor concert / conference venue to be developed in Cork city so a marquee is being used because of the lack of viable venue.
The under development of Pairc Ui Chaomh and the Munster showgrounds has to be a priority for all concerned and has massive potential for the GAA with proper modern facilities ah la Stade De France and Croke Park required in Cork.There also exists the possibility ofr a hotel with conference facilities on the site adjacent the decrepid stadium which in my opinion should be demolished to pave the way for a modern stadium capable of multiple uses and a roof should be considered considering our climate.
Hopefully the public of Cork and beyond will benifit as it will contribute to the city along with the proposed conference centre on Horgans Quay.
browser. Agree with you there. The whole thing needs to be knocked to the ground.
As it stands, all the bench seats you talk of are actually gone and have all be replaced with bucket seats. They fucked up big time though. Its now almost impossible to sit in them due to a lack of leg room and I’m only 5 foot 9. Worse than that, to increase leg room, they cut the top off of each individual seat. What a joke it is.
IMO, the whole thing should be razed to the ground and start again.
I would actually go down the German route on all of this. Dortmund have a very good stadium setup. As it stands, they have terracing behind each goal which can easily be turned into seats for all seater events such as the world cup. All you have to do if flip up all the seats which disappear under the terracing when terracing is wanted.
This would be ideal for a rebuilt Pairc Ui Chaoimh. Say, 55,000 capacity when terracing and 40,000 when all seater. Nice setup as we GAA fans like a lively terrace on match days and obviously UEFA and the likes don’t like terraces on match days.
With regard to the redevelopment of pairc ui caoimh i also think it would be of much better for the city if it was knocked and rebulit completly as it realy is a joke at the moment, where the trying to tell us that the uncovered stand is not for anyone over 5’10 or what? i dont think do that they will come on board with the soccer or rugby crowd and however i think is a mistake for cork city to be doing up turners cross as the chairman has always had the ambition of moving to there own purpose built stadium and this could of been realised if they came on board with munster and sold musgrave park and developed another 20,000-25,000 seater stadium on a grennfield site and I think the irfu made a mistake by not doing this as they would of made a much better return as cork city are the best supported team in the country and cork has a bigger population anyway! also to do with pairc ui caoimh when it is to be redeveloped i hope they look at the exterior of the stadium aswell especially on the covered stand side as this has alot of potential to have a striking landmark along the quayside coming into the city!maybe something like Munichs new stadium! aslo i was reading the paper last week and i read that theres not much movement going to be made on the doclands until around 15 years time, Im getting sick of the uncertanty around this and I really think that theres not enough effort being made to get the docklands of the ground. We really need to build this long awaited event centre before Limerick gets there before us and I really hope that they eventually go for a centre along the lines of Belfasts odessy with capacity for indoor sports aswell as it would be of far far better value to the city! Also just wondering is anyone else sick of this Governments view that Dublin is the centre of the world when thinking of recent developments like the airport debt and the bandon road and sarsfield road flyovers and also the north ring road which is also a vital development for the city to get off the ground (which alot of ye forgot to mention when talking of new public parks as this project could also bring a pheniox park type opportunity if the right route is choosen). They wont evan give us the funding for these few projects and thers talk of Dublin geting another ring road around the m50 on top of such thing as the luas, extendining tha dart, the metro and the list gos on.The goverenment keeps talking about Cork being a counter balance to Dublin but thats all it is, talk! Why dont they actually start doing something like start discouraging companies locating in Dublin!
Does anyone really expect the GAA to knock Pairc Ui Caoimh and start a fresh with a top class stadium. I for one don’t.
I’ll be careful about how I phrase this, but I am doubtful about how easy it would be to evacuate Pairc Ui Chaoimh in an emergency. I’d add my name to the list of people who would like to see it knocked and replaced with a new stadium on the site.
I couldn’t see the GAA sharing with Cork City or Munster Rugby. However, if the last two organisations were prepared to share, Musgrave Park is not a bad option. The current ground has two further pitches next to the main one and a decent sized stadium could be developed on the site. It’s also in a good location, not far from the South Ring Road, but within walking distance of the City Centre.
@daniel_7 wrote:
With regard to the redevelopment of pairc ui caoimh i also think it would be of much better for the city if it was knocked and rebulit completly as it realy is a joke at the moment, where the trying to tell us that the uncovered stand is not for anyone over 5’10 or what? i dont think do that they will come on board with the soccer or rugby crowd and however i think is a mistake for cork city to be doing up turners cross as the chairman has always had the ambition of moving to there own purpose built stadium and this could of been realised if they came on board with munster and sold musgrave park and developed another 20,000-25,000 seater stadium on a grennfield site and I think the irfu made a mistake by not doing this as they would of made a much better return as cork city are the best supported team in the country and cork has a bigger population anyway! also to do with pairc ui caoimh when it is to be redeveloped i hope they look at the exterior of the stadium aswell especially on the covered stand side as this has alot of potential to have a striking landmark along the quayside coming into the city!maybe something like Munichs new stadium! aslo i was reading the paper last week and i read that theres not much movement going to be made on the doclands until around 15 years time, Im getting sick of the uncertanty around this and I really think that theres not enough effort being made to get the docklands of the ground. We really need to build this long awaited event centre before Limerick gets there before us and I really hope that they eventually go for a centre along the lines of Belfasts odessy with capacity for indoor sports aswell as it would be of far far better value to the city! Also just wondering is anyone else sick of this Governments view that Dublin is the centre of the world when thinking of recent developments like the airport debt and the bandon road and sarsfield road flyovers and also the north ring road which is also a vital development for the city to get off the ground (which alot of ye forgot to mention when talking of new public parks as this project could also bring a pheniox park type opportunity if the right route is choosen). They wont evan give us the funding for these few projects and thers talk of Dublin geting another ring road around the m50 on top of such thing as the luas, extendining tha dart, the metro and the list gos on.The goverenment keeps talking about Cork being a counter balance to Dublin but thats all it is, talk! Why dont they actually start doing something like start discouraging companies locating in Dublin!
Agree totally + to mention central governments lack of funding for the following :-
Broadband access
Roads -Bandon Road & Sarsfield road flyovers
School of Music fiasco
Cork Airport funding disaster
Cork 2005 lack of funding
Rail lines Midleton and transport in general
Decentralisation – No Govt.Dept re-located to the second city.Apart from Jobs we have done very badly at Cabinet level and the next election will damage them I’d say unless something happens quickly.The Governments “Everybody move to Dublin” policy is the only one I can see right now its bad for both cities.
Bourgeoise – no disrespect but take a look at my post and you’ll see that I’m questioning why a ‘Live at the Marquee’ would exist AFTER a permanent structure is in place.
Right then, on to a few other points raised. First off, I think it hugely unlikely that a municipal stadium would be built on the PuC site which would host GAA, Soccer and Rugby. Main reason here is the size of pitch required by the GAA would be far too large for Soccer and Rugby. Add in the likely size (40,000-55,000) and there’d be bugger all atmosphere for most matches – marketing triggers accepted. I just can’t see Munster Rugby (problem there anyway as Dolphin and Sunday’s Well have sporting leases at Musgrave Park) and Brian Lennox buying into it. Besides the Cork County Board gettin’ into bed with them feckin’ foreign sports !!!!
Secondly I have something of a problem with Horgan’s Quay as the site for the event centre. My understanding is that, at present, the concerned parties are trying to ‘shoe-horn’ in as large a venue as possible into a very tight space. I believe somewhere between 5,000 and 5,500 is now ‘almost’ achievable. If so this will rule out any future growth opps., leaving the city with a facility that cannot cope for many large events, and is blocking the development of a more suitable venue. Furthermore it is my understanding that someone like Clear Channel (half-owners of the Point, and tons more across Europe and the World – in short a behemoth) would be brought in on an operating lease. While it’s understandable that an investor would wish to have someone with experience running the place I would ask you to take a look at what Clear Channel do during the Summer. Answer: They move most activity outdoors to maximise their revenue. If you think for one minute that this will change once they get the keys of a Cork venue then I’d argue that you’re wrong. From May to September the venue will house very little activity. So what’s the alternative? There is one, but unfortunately I can’t go into it here … not just yet anyway.
Radioactiveman – yup, perhaps I am overly cynical, but I’ve had my eyes opened so much these past few years that I now tend to look for the story behind the story, rather than just accept ‘the story’.
To come back to the transport issue (feel free to skip and continue discussion above)
There are Four distinct rail issues in Cork that appear to require pressure.
1 Delivery of the Midleton – Mallow Rail plan; to ensure it is built on time and has suitable and sufficient railcars
2 Park and Ride facilities at Dunkettle and other sites to provide a dual mode alternative for the City Centre
3 Connection to Airport and South City (light rail)
4 Upgrade of Cork mainline to Dublin to cut journey times to 2 hours, which would also benefit connections to Limerick and later GalwayThe AGM of Platform 11 is on in the Central Hotel in Exchequer St Dublin 2 on Saturday I would like to see someone from Cork who knows the score attend and get involved to drive this agenda on. As Transport 21 for Dublin has proved along with the WRC campaign (which has a much weaker set of fundamentals) if you don’t ask you don’t get.
theblimp wrote:Bourgeoise – no disrespect but take a look at my post and you’ll see that I’m questioning why a ‘Live at the Marquee’ would exist AFTER a permanent structure is in place.There is and was a lot of more outdoor events in Cork other than “Live at the Marquee” which is a temporary in door venue after all capeable of holding 5,500 people only.Cork has had successful outdoor concerts catering for larger crowds going way back so an indoor live venue won’t affect an outdoor concert / event park at PuC.Look at Marlay Park Rathfarnhan during the summer.MCD can only get 8,000 people into The Point and 20,000+ into Marlay Park.It would give promoters opportunities to organise weekend festivals etc. The assumption that an indoor venue would mean that no events happen outdoors during the summer months is nonsense.Look at the Killarney Summerfest with lots of outdoor concerts and the NEC having Riverdance and Joe Dolan all year around.Thats the way it happens over Europe which has massive indoor arenas and outdoor events during the summer.Its not all about 1 event.
Lark by the Lee.
Siamsa Cois Laoi
Feile
Heineken Green Energy
Bud Rising
Andrea Bocelli @Collins Barracks
Live Concerts at The Grand Parade etc.@browser wrote:
I must say I hope that CCC try and direct the GAA somewhat in the redevelopment of Pairc Ui Caoimh.
My own view, and it is a bit of an obsession of mine, is that a state of the art 40,000 to 50,000 capacity stadium should be built on that site. Of this, at least 35,000 should be proper seating with corporate boxes etc. In fact if I had my way it would be all seated as I think the terracing that remains in, say, Croke Park really takes away from the overall appearance of it.browser I think you speak for thousands of people regarding the stadium above. HAving Horgans Quay in my opinion as an event centre is a joke, by all means if they want to maket it as a conference centre thats no problem but Cork needs a stadium. They are looking for submissions on the Cork docklands, why dont you just cut and paste exactly what you wrote above and send it to the CCC? Its very frustrating at Corks lack of development. We get all excited about new buildings that make it past the 6 storey mark which is a shame. Transport is rubbish, rail is years behind, roads are now cancelled funding and the touted major event centre can hold less than the Point Depot. Joke.
Re a new top class stadium stadium all encompassing a range of sports I think we can only dare to dream. So frustrating, they even have a site already.
Bourgeoise – I really don’t want to get into a ‘post & reply’ exchange, suffice to say that in a way you’re actually supporting my proposition. Claiming (CCC) that Live at the Marquee-type events would be viable AFTER the construction of a permanent venue makes little sense. You have a choice of venues – same capacities, one is a modern permanent structure, one is a marquee with all the additional H&S this requires. Why would anyone choose the latter? As for outdoor activity – yes it would be great, but the two primary promoters in Ireland are too focused on Dublin and its environs for Cork to get a look-in.
Let’s take a look at the examples you gave
Summerfest: No outdoor concerts this year. MCD were contracted for a number of years and this contract expired last year – they decided not to renew, and to focus activities around Dublin
Lark by the Lee: Long gone
Siamsa: Likewise
Feile: Same
Heineken Green Energy: Again departed (although they were originally the first to use the marquee model at the showgrounds)
Bud Rising: Indoors small-scale in Cork, occasional outdoor activity in Dublin
Andrea Bocelli: A great success but only accomplished due to the single-mindedness and deep pockets of one Cork businessman who believed something needed to be done for Cork 2005. Unlikely to be repeated
Activity on Grand Parade: Speak to anyone connected with the delivery of the 2005 production (for example – Dennis Herlihy, Safety Officer) and you’ll be told that it’s hugely unlikely to happen again.
When was the last time we had an outdoor concert in PuC? A group tried to do it for Cork2005 but failed. If it couldn’t be done with the added attention of our year of culture it’s unlikely to happen in the near future.Fact is most outdoor activity is targeted at a Dublin audience, with some very rare variances such as Kilkenny and Galway. It’s the quick-buck mentality of the promoters and the fact that we have some of the highest ticket prices in the world should tell you all you need to know about them. I’m a passionate supporter of live entertainment and would love to see more activity in Cork – but it’s going to take something far more substantial than Mr. Montgomery at Horgan’s Quay, supported by Joe Gavin, to change the status quo.
Historically I have shown that large / small outdoor concerts have been sucessfully run and promoted in Cork.
The promotors do not have the suitable venue for large events full stop.
The County population should be 500,000 plus after the next census not including the possibility of attracting people from all over Munster.
I amongst others am amazed that Corks Hotelliers,publicans,Chambers of commerce etc are letting the possibliity of revenue from Corks citizens and tourists head to Dublin , Killarney ,Kilkenny,Galway & Stradbally etc for live concerts and festivals + the loss of revenue from visitors which would acrue from visitors to Cork for festivals,concerts,conferences and sporting events.Cork should think big and construct an Odyssey type venue in othe Docklands or else remain as the second city with very few visitor and tourist potential as a destination to counteract the Dublin attraction.Time for Corks business leaders to just do it as the O’Donoghoue family did in Killarney with the NEC.Today’s Irish Examiner carries a story about the possibility of the Mercy and South Infirmary/ Victoria hospitals relocating to another site freeing up their present locations for other uses.
Any ideas on what would be developed on these sites?
What developer is involved in the land swap/relocation deal?
Would the Mercy site suit UCC for campus expansion?@kite wrote:
Today’s Irish Examiner carries a story about the possibility of the Mercy and South Infirmary/ Victoria hospitals relocating to another site freeing up their present locations for other uses.
Any ideas on what would be developed on these sites?
What developer is involved in the land swap/relocation deal?
Would the Mercy site suit UCC for campus expansion?As far as I know they may be looking at a site in Glanmire for the new hospital. I think the present locations are vital but if they feel they could set up another CUH type hospital then I suppose it could work.
As a counter-balance to CUH, somewhere on the North-Eastern side of the city would be the best option. In that regard Glanmire would be perfect. Do the Southern Health Board (or whatever their successors are called) own any significant land around Sarsfield’s Court?
I wonder how this could affect the development of the breast-check centre.
On the subject of the Mercy, why is the ground floor completely unoccupied (or not even built if you prefer…)? It’s not great for the area and even if it was let out for retail usage or for consultants offices, it could provide useful revenue for the health service.
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