Developments in Cork
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Today’s Irish Examiner has an online poll to vote for the most beautiful and the ugliest buildings in Cork http://www.irishexaminer.com pick 1 – 10, 1=ugly 10=beautiful for;
A. Glucksman Gallery
B. Victoria Mills
C. CIT student centre
D. Cork Airport
E. City Quarter
F. County Hall
G. North Main Street car park
H. Crawford Gallery extention
I. Bon Secours care village
J. Mahon Point SCkite wrote:Today’s Irish Examiner has an online poll to vote for the most beautiful and the ugliest buildings in Cork http://www.irishexaminer.com pick 1 – 10, 1=ugly 10=beautiful for]Why do I see far more from the ugly list…
Whatever people say about Victoria Mills, I can’t see beyond the North Main St car park for the worst though.
@jungle wrote:
Why do I see far more from the ugly list…
Whatever people say about Victoria Mills, I can’t see beyond the North Main St car park for the worst though.
Agreed and I am amazed that Merchants Quay S.C. is not in there also.You could have filled the poll with O’Callaghan properties awful buildings.
I notice the Examiner’s new printing facility in Mahon didn’t make the cut. Thats a pretty dodgy building!
I thought I’d just add a link to a presentation given at the Cork Chamber of Commerce Annual Conference by Sean O’Driscoll, CEO of Glen Dimplex. The link is
http://www.corkchamber.ie/modules/articles/download.php?nodeId=84§ionId=4&moduleId=0&downloadId=15&articleId=83 .He had some very interesting things to say I thought. As I said the whole speech is at the above link but I have cut out an extract below as it gives a flavour. For the record, Pat McGrath of Project Management gave a more architecture/design orientated speech which was also excellent but I can’t find a link at the mo….
“Let me pose a few questions at this juncture:-
1. When the IDA brings potential overseas industrialists to Cork, Politicians, City Officials and Business people play their part in promoting the region. What about potential domestic investment, for example; when last has Cork gone to Dublin to meet the large financial institutions to sell Cork and encourage them to relocate some of their business activities to Cork.
Senior Executives, Department Heads like to live in desirable cities and their high paying jobs create more jobs!
2. Due to its success within the next few years Ireland will need a second Financial Services Centre. Will Limerick be that location or will Cork? Today professional services is the biggest employer in Cork city but it is time to move this sector into a higher gear. Much as I admire it, the South Mall will not provide the essential physical infrastructure for a second Financial Services Centre in Ireland.
3. Why are the vaults of the National Gallery in Dublin full of paintings when they could be on display in Cork.
For decades London had a monopoly on the Imperial War Museum. Not anymore, today Manchester has its own.4. Why is the West of Ireland constantly advertising its quality of life and encouraging people to relocate to the West, under its Lookwest programme. Is Cork?
5. Worldwide, forward looking University cities are putting great emphasis on retaining its college graduates – the dream demographics of a fast growing city and tomorrow’s entrepreneurs. What is Cork doing to retain more of tomorrow’s entrepreneurs?
6. Within a few years Dublin will have two world-class sports stadia – What will Cork have?
I am aware that there is a recent Cork marketing initiative with the formation of the Cork Marketing Partnership. However, to do what is necessary for a city in a hurry; its budget should be a multiple of what is proposed”
😉 Manus O’Callaghan Communications, Public Consultation Managers to the Presentation Brothers are lobbying the support of Councillors to help get permission from CCC to build housing on approx 7.5 acres of land that also contain the sports pitches on the Presentation Sports field on Magazine Road / Dennehy’s Cross.
The Presentation Brothers will “cede control of the “public (??) walkway and a pocket park to the City Council” if successful in this rezoning.
The Brothers believe that the surplus lands outside the playing area of the pitches should be identified as a development opportunity site for a number of reasons including the “unhealthy demographic of population decline and an ageing population”.@kite wrote:
With most houses now failing to sell at auction and many apartments lying idle since built you would wonder at what level will developers put their money in less volatile investments?
Heard today that plans to demolish Lovetts to replace by four-storey apartment block have been panned. Not sure if it was the threat of ‘revolution on the strreets’ or the prospect of empty apartments, or combination of both, which prompted the change of mind.
The property market has dampened considerably in recent weeks
@KenzoTange wrote:
Heard today that plans to demolish Lovetts to replace by four-storey apartment block have been panned. Not sure if it was the threat of ‘revolution on the strreets’ or the prospect of empty apartments, or combination of both, which prompted the change of mind.
The property market has dampened considerably in recent weeks
It is certainly true that the NIMBY’s are out in full force again in the Douglas, Mahon, Blackrock area of the city objecting to apartments on the site of the Lovett’s Restaurant, Springville House and Manakin.
Councillor Shannon has thrown his rattle out of the playpen jumped on his moral high horse to join the anti high rise crew of CCC (high rise = 3 storeys !!)
I am open to correction Kenzo Tange but my understanding is that the decision due date has been extended for 6 months in the case of Springville House (normal enough practice), and the other two are proceeding as normal??As I’ve posted before, I have some sympathy for those who were opposed to the demolition of Lovett’s. The building is of local historical importance. If development is needed in the area, how about looking at the Murphy’s Haulage yard on the Ballinlough Road. It would come with the added benefit of no more juggernauts on a road that can’t take them.
I also have qualms about suburban medium-rise in general. It’s fine to go up in an area where people walk to work or along the railway lines. I think it’s OK in the Victoria/Dennehy’s Cross area where it is close to CIT and UCC. It’s probably OK around Jacob’s Island where people can at least get straight onto the dual-carriageway. But putting 50 people per acre – all of whom will need to drive to work – into an area with no transport links will lead to clogged up roads and bad local air pollution.
The city needs to go up instead of out, but it needs to be done in a considered way supported by existing or planned infrastructure.
Agree with you completely jungle.
Ballinlough is the one area of Cork which is well supplied by schools such as St Anthony’s, Regina Mundi, Eglantine, OLOL, etc. Would it not cross the minds of the city planners that it might be a good idea to build family homes rather than empty blocks of apartments in these areas?
Why not build apartment blocks in areas where people can walk to work and build family homes in areas where children can walk to school.
Is it perhaps that developers view such suburban apartment developments as more profitable with less risk rather than the proper development of brownfield sits such as the docklands? If a historic building gets knocked in the process, who cares if developers are still making money? If school children get knocked down by a juggernaut while walking to school, what were these children walking to school in the first place? Surely, the developer is better off if these childtren are living in a housing estate out in the blue yonder enjoying a 45 minute commute to school during rush hour in a 4WD!
No wonder the people of Cork are angry!
😎 Mark Kelleher’s 3G group have lodged plans for a five storey multi million euro medical facility over basement car park for the former Esso site on the Bishopstown Road.
The site failed to sell on the open market last year hence the plans by the Kelleher’s to develop this site themselves.😎 Port of Cork will be inviting proposals soon for what their auctioneers quite rightly describe as the best site in Cork, the Bonded Warehouses on Custom House Quay.
Hopefully POC will not be allowed hold the city to ransom for relocation payment for too long as this Historic, Listed building is in a pitiful state from years of neglect.
What is the point of having a Heritage Officer or a Derelict Site Act if one of the finest buildings in the City is allowed fall into the river?:mad:
At least it was not burnt down (by vandals) yet.@mhenness wrote:
Thanks for elaborating. There certainly seems to be a wind of change in the property market of late. I just hope it all stays rational.
It went past rational in 2002 – when due to house price inflation, rental yields fell below 5%. Yields are now in the 2%-3% bracket – less than the amount of money you get in a deposit account with Northern Rock (4%) . Betting on “capital appreciation” which is not backed up by yield is simple speculation rather than investment.
Askaboutmoney.com is a better forum for this topic though.kite wrote:😮 In fairness everybody could come up with some excuse not to build apartments in their back yard, the kids, the trees, the roads, the views, â€Historic†Houses, endangered snails, etc etc, hence the term NIMBY.
Developers are in the business of making money]
Answer me this question then.How are the people who would live here supposed to get to where they work/where they shop etc.?
The best that you can say for this location is that it is on the number 10 and number 19 bus routes, but these are already overflowing at rush hour.
Alternatively, you could put them in cars, but the local road network is already congested (For fun, try driving down Skehard Rd between 8 and 9 in the morning).
We have several hundred acres of redundant brownfield land in the Docklands and large underused sites in central areas (look at Anglesea St for example).
We also have a proposed suburban rail network that will serve lots of bungalows. Near Little Island and Glounthaune stations could support hundreds of apartments.
But, if we have substantial development of suburban apartment complexes, where is the incentive to develop these?
I would be far happier to see 20 or 30 storey development in the Docklands than suburbs rising to a general 3 to 4 storeys.
In my case Lovett’s is not a NIMBY issue at all. My parents live between the Douglas and South Douglas Roads, which aren’t a million miles away, but too far to be affected. I haven’t lived anywhere near the area since the late 90s.
I accept your point about profitability for developers, but that is why we have a planning system. Developers would always try to maximise their profits.
@jungle wrote:
Answer me this question then.
How are the people who would live here supposed to get to where they work/where they shop etc.?
The best that you can say for this location is that it is on the number 10 and number 19 bus routes, but these are already overflowing at rush hour.
Alternatively, you could put them in cars, but the local road network is already congested (For fun, try driving down Skehard Rd between 8 and 9 in the morning).
We have several hundred acres of redundant brownfield land in the Docklands and large underused sites in central areas (look at Anglesea St for example).
We also have a proposed suburban rail network that will serve lots of bungalows. Near Little Island and Glounthaune stations could support hundreds of apartments.
But, if we have substantial development of suburban apartment complexes, where is the incentive to develop these?
I would be far happier to see 20 or 30 storey development in the Docklands than suburbs rising to a general 3 to 4 storeys.
In my case Lovett’s is not a NIMBY issue at all. My parents live between the Douglas and South Douglas Roads, which aren’t a million miles away, but too far to be affected. I haven’t lived anywhere near the area since the late 90s.
I accept your point about profitability for developers, but that is why we have a planning system. Developers would always try to maximise their profits.
jungle,I agree fully that the docklands is the best place for skyscrapers and should be planned properly with green amenity areas, light rail or PROPER green bus lanes. CCC’s record in proper planning in the city is pitiful to say the least.
Douglas is no different to any other suburb in the city in that it has not been designed to accept in density terms high rise / high density buildings.
The city as a whole has to live with the flawed City Development Plan 2004-2009 that our useless councilors voted in, a plan that allows planning on the basis of “green bus routes†that are nothing more than a line on a map (not on a road) and then washes its hands of responsibility for traffic etc, this is a sick joke.
The CDP states that Green Bus Routes “shall be a dedicated traffic lane where feasibleâ€, otherwise an imaginary lane in the planners head will suffice!!
The city has only 2 options, carry on as we are going and accept apartments in every suburb, or bin the City Development Plan. Which option would be best?
Welcome to planning in Cork according to Joe Gavin@Bob Dole wrote:
It went past rational in 2002 – when due to house price inflation, rental yields fell below 5%. Yields are now in the 2%-3% bracket – less than the amount of money you get in a deposit account with Northern Rock (4%) . Betting on “capital appreciation” which is not backed up by yield is simple speculation rather than investment.
Askaboutmoney.com is a better forum for this topic though.I guess what I meant by wanting it to stayl rational is that investors don’t all leave the market at once…which could cause a price crash. I’m selling my own property at the moment in order to trade up. I have an investor interested but not sure why they are exactly for the reasons you stated. It is safer and more profitable from a yield point of view to put your money in a savings a/c. Clearly this person believes good capital appreciation is still on the cards. Who knows…the economists have been wrong in their predictions more than once!
@mhenness wrote:
Who knows…the economists have been wrong in their predictions more than once!
They weren’t wrong with regard to this – the rules of the game were simply changed: Mr. Greenspan simply dropped Fed rates post the dot com crash to prevent a recession for the short term. This was followed by the ECB. This created a “perfect storm” for Ireland with the improved fundamentals of the 90’s leading into a frenzy of credit bingeing with repeated relaxings of mortgage lending criteria (ostensibly for the “benefit” of borrowers) allowing the bubble to inflate. Watch it collapse as interest rates hit 4.25% next year.
That said – Mr. Greenspan’s actions and a number of the consequences were predicted by some – e.g. by Eric Janszen on itulip.com as early as 1998.
The city as a whole has to live with the flawed City Development Plan 2004-2009
The flaw with the CDP is the same as the LUTS and CASP; they’re dependent on central govt being willing (and in a position to) invest in public transport ‘in the regions’. The roads network has been delivered to an extent, but public transport provision is only now being to emerge. The fact that the bus service in Cork is so abysmal is not down to the City Council, its down to the relevant semi state. All the Council can do really is lobby, and to vote in Strategic Plans that facilitate and ‘induce’ investment. The history of the Midleton line will be a very interesting thesis topic for someone someday in that context.
The basic point is very simple. Sustainable urban areas require density. Density requires public transport over the use of the private car. However if you can’t get that public transport provided before you begin to increase the density of an area, and allowing the untrammelled sprawl of urban areas isn’r an option, then sometimes people have to go ahead and try and force the hands of those controlling the purse strings. It just isn’t pleasant for the commuter.
Corks local government is among the best in the country in many respects, but it has a series of problems to deal with that are not of its making.
AIdan – You made some very good points, especially in relation to exchequer funding and public transport being the preserve of semi-state monopolies (monoliths!). One of the key problems for the City Council, and one which negatively impacts everything from planning to public transport, is the fact that city boundaries have not changed in decades and as a result many of the surburbs are now outside their remit and under the juristiction of the county council. This applies to all our cities (with Dublin having three councils to contend with). Leads to many instances of one hand not knowing what the other is doing.
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