Cycling in Irish Cities

A story in todays Independent puts a lot of the discussion here in context

Scary stuff. What an amazingly low fine –

@ctesiphon wrote:

I do remember one case where a sign was attached to a bike rack on Dame Street saying that any bikes left there a week later would be removed. It never came to pass, possibly because someone in DCC realised (or had it pointed out to them) that it’s not unlikely a person would lock their bike in town for a week or more and go on holidays. (Not to be recommended, it’s true, but there’s no law against it.)

I recall a similar sign. I presumed it had come to pass and that the bikes form part f the Garda auction. Oh well another unsolvable problem for the city. Better put down a few hundred more racks then…. I wonder what the do in Amsterdam..Copenhagen…..etc

@a boyle wrote:

yes but it is not impossible . just a little bit of effort . such plates don’t have to be very big to be readable, not if they are made of the similar shiny material to signposts.

As a cyclist myself i know all too well of the crazy dangerous things cyclists do.

I don’t think the gardai would be allowed to simply collect the hundreds of wrecked bicycles . Even if they were allowed they won’t do it as it would cost them a fair bit to dispose of them all. they would want to be able to charge the owners.

with all the computers and things around , a fairly simple system for registring you bicycle could be put in place at modest cost.

In fairness, where are you going to mount a plate that will always be visibe and large enough to be photographed by a camera (whilst in motion) ?

Let the council collect the bikes. As I said, I’d start with the obviously trashed ones. Then move on to the ones that are locked to (non bike specific) street furnature. You could give them a bit of notice with a tag or an advertisement in the paper. If you got rid of all the abandoned bikes it would clean up the look of the streets a fair bit IMHO. It’s not a matter of clearing every bike off the street. Just the ones that are obviously going nowhere. Can’t be that difficult surely ?

And I think that Kevin st. auction is recovered stolen goods etc. not bikes formerly locked around the city.

While rummaging around on YouTube recently (can’t think why, Graham 😉 ) I came across this clip of activity from the recent Festival:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GhrNPpTVOw

Not only is someone using a camera in the IFSC, someone’s riding a bike!! Call the po-lice!!

If this was in the ‘How well do you know Dublin?’ thread, I’d have the answer straight away. It’s part of my route home- N11 southbound, just past Donnybrook church. Often one of the residents of a nearby house parks right in the bike lane here, and mass traffic tends to block all the access points onto the bike lane on Saturday evenings and Sunday mornings, so a bin is mild. But I agree- it’s odd how most cyclists will cycle around an obstacle rather than move it out of the way. Though I wonder how many cyclists had passed it that day- the majority of cyclists go northbound in morning rush hour and the southbound traffic is fairly minimal here, afaik. And let’s not forget the role of the binmen in all of this and, by extension, the role of the city council.

There’s a very interesting experiment taking place across a range of cities across Europe as detailed here in Der Spiegel. I like the idea very much and it appeals to my intuition that more rules of the road, regulations, signs, segregation and stricter enforcement (especially for cyclists and pedestrians) are poor substitutes for having basic consideration for your fellow woman/man and prioritising safety (particularly your own) over of rather arbitrary rules. I’m not sure you could apply it to the major arterial routes through a city of Dublin’s size but maybe they could experiment with some of the city centre areas; Temple Bar is an obvious candidate as even currently cars, bikes and pedestrians mingle anarchically without causing the end of the world. A similar situation exists de facto in the area bounded by Dawson St, the Green, Cuffe St, George’s/Aungier St and Dame St. Even if the safety improvements were marginal, just imagine the aesthetic benefits! The forests of poles and signs could be removed from these areas.

Ah, the Netherlands… such infrastructure, such law-abiding citizens, such Utopia.

Sure, Amsterdam remains to this day the only city where I’ve been clipped while cycling by a passing vehicle, but I’ll gladly put aside my bruises and chalk that up to bad luck. However, (call me a pessimist) kicking off this “let’s chuck out all the road signs and trust in people’s innate goodness” campaign (see jimg’s link to the charming little Der Spiegel article) wouldn’t seem to be the most, er, effective first step. It seems about as ill-advised as a “pay what you wish” night at the pub. Yes, other major cities like Dublin can learn from the Netherlands’ example, but I tend to think it’s the exception rather than the rule. Kind of like how scientists should study Keith Richards’ immune system… freakishly well-functioning.

However, to be fair, this “road sign-free” idea is not entirely misguided. In fact, the plan has enjoyed a long and colorful history in New York City for example, where cyclists, pedestrians, and motorists alike are able to effectively communicate through non-verbal signs such as the vigorous fist-shake, the flipped bird, and the “In my refusal to make eye contact or utilize any of my rearview mirrors, I’m going to just charge straight ahead and trust in my fellow citizen’s ability to get the f**k out of my f**king way.” In a charmingly democratic way, it gets traffic moving in a way that road signs fail to do. It could work in Dublin. Call me visionary.

And as a test run for this no-road-signs policy, perhaps Dublin can begin by removing the “LITTER” and “BRUSCAR” signage from bins and see if that improves the littering problem…

Sorry to confound, jimg. I belong to the outmoded, old-fashioned quill and scroll tradition that doesn’t insert smileys when unleashing my good old-fashioned sarcasm about cultural stereotypes. But I’m actually not a Dutch supremacist, nor did I intend to come across as entirely dismissive of this experiment. (The great polarizing Keith Richards aside)

I absolutely agree with you that there is great appeal to a polite, intuitive system of moving about towns and villages, which is maybe why this system works well on smaller scale projects, as you’ve pointed out. I think we are actually in agreement that it has great potential (and real life applications) in places like Temple Bar and in villages and towns throughout Europe (not to mention gridlocked midtown Manhattan). I just found that the “unsafe is the new safe” optimism expressed in the article aroused a healthy knee-jerk skepticism. This does not believe I think the idea is entirely without merit.

Aesthetically, I think it’s a great idea to scale back on unneccessary road signs that just add clutter, as has been pointed out in other threads. I do not think the same about the total abolition of road signs. Road signs are there, primarily, to serve a practical function. Whether or not everyone obeys the speed limits, they are there to ensure (or at least promote) the safety of drivers, cyclists, and pedestrians. Bottom line. If there is a dangerous curve ahead, I want to know. If a street is one-way, I want to know. And whether or not I want to travel to (insert culturally stereotypical undesirable place name here), I have a right to have strategically placed road signs with arrows indicating which route I can take to get there.

Out of curiosity, is it the aesthetics or the social dignity of the idea that appeals to you? Or both?

(And please don’t begrudge me my skeptically cocked eyebrow. I made it one day and my face froze like that.)

Out of curiosity, is it the aesthetics or the social dignity of the idea that appeals to you? Or both?

There’s an element of “it’s sounds crazy but it just might work, capt!” to it’s appeal I admit. But it’s not so much that I fondly imagine that everyone will be tipping their caps and bidding each other top o’ the morning as they pass each other in the street and that goodly neighbourly relations will once again reign over society. It’s just that the current system just creates an unpleasant urban environment – particularly for cyclists and pedestrians. The most unappealing areas of Dublin for me are those with the most segregation and where all movement is governed by rules – for example at Christchurch – where railings and lights direct the movement for pedestrians, cyclists are chaparoned into unsuitable separate “lanes” and motorized vehicles perform a huge coordinated dance. Also I probably harbour some anti-authoritarian sympathies and have never viewed obeying rules for their own sake particularly virtuous. However for me, the most important benefit, it this approach works, would be in terms of safety and the least important would be the aesthetic benefits even if considerable.

Government Support for S2S Project Announced

A new milestone in the campaign was reached today (12th Nov) when the Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern T.D. and the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Mr. Dick Roche T.D. announced their commitment to promote and support the proposal to upgrade and join up various existing sections of promenade and cycleways to form a continuous route around the 22kms seafront of Dublin Bay.

The announcement was made in a press briefing and photocall on the seafront at Clontarf. This is seen as a huge boost to the campaign and follows meetings between members of the group and the Taoiseach and the Minister.

more details on http://www.s2s.ie