Council plans to delist Georgian Clonmel hotel

Given mayor Phil Prendergast’s comments as quoted above, I would question the Labour Party’s decision to run her as a candidate for [url=http://www.rte.ie/news/elections2007/Tipperary-South.html]Tipperary South[/URL].

Between that and having to endure Pat Rabbitte’s “burger king” style banner draped over the front of liberty hall every day I suspect that Labour would not be the best custodians of our environment, heritage and national planning.

By the way the break down of Clonmel Borough Council (just so you know where the unanimous agreement came from) is as follows:

Phil Prendergast Labour Party
Anne Taylor Labour Party
Darren Ryan Labour Party

Siobhán Ambrose Fianna Fáil
Martin O’Brien Fianna Fáil
Niall Dennehy Fianna Fáil

Sean Nyhan Fine Gael
Denis Dunne Fine Gael

Richie Molloy Progressive Democrats

Pat English Independent
Billy Shoer Independent
Brian O’Donnell Independent

Quite the list of shame reminds me of https://archiseek.com/content/showpost.php?p=35169&postcount=28

Can we rename the thread please; this needs to be watched Clonmel is one of the most important heritage towns in the country

“Cowboy Politics in Clonmel”

“Pat English Independent ” is an architectural draughtsman and is employed by the agent of one of the third parties who appealed the development.

Secondly these same councillors are against high density development (anything above 10 to the acre ) or anything greater than 2 storey houses.

just proves that the stone throwers arent fit to manage themselves. Can the minister not call in this decision to delist, I suppose he couldnt be bothered. Its amazing that a council would assist a developer in such a way. “The Heriatge barrier” as on e councillor called it must surely be a saying for our times.

let me first say that i have absolutely no issue with the protecting of significant architectural structures throughout the country, however more often than not signitifcant urban renewal is hindered by the apparant paranoia to knock down tattered old buildings of little or no architectural importance…. therefore i say, its about time someone stood up against the anti-develpoment policies of An Taisce… its a pity they have to go to such convoluted process to be permitted to demolish a building…..

the main problem i see here is the ease at which councils include buildings onto their ‘protected’ list without thought and foresight as to the consequences of this action. major significant architectural sites throughout the country are stiffled from development because some single storey cottage type 50’s building has a timber shop front on it…….

can someone describe to me the process the council have to go through to ‘list’ a structure?? it seems the only criteria needed is the building needs to be pre 63 and theyre slapping protection titles all over it…

@henno wrote:

major significant architectural sites throughout the country are stiffled from development because some single storey cottage type 50’s building has a timber shop front on it…….

Can you give any example where this has actually happened as you describe?

Henno, I have been thinking the same. I am not familiar with the building that is the subject of this thread so I cannot comment on its importance but I certainly do question the architectural merit of many structures/items that Councils slap a protection order on.
Just maybe, maybe the Council got this one right? The design of the proposed structure is a seperate issue.

@henno wrote:

can someone describe to me the process the council have to go through to ‘list’ a structure?? it seems the only criteria needed is the building needs to be pre 63 and theyre slapping protection titles all over it…

Hope this helps: https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?p=46136

@Lotts wrote:

Can you give any example where this has actually happened as you describe?

i can give you an example of one that im working on right now….

the facade of the building on the left is protected. the building is on the main street in Abbeyleix, Co. Laois. in a strategic corner site opposite the highly significant and interesting AIB bank (on the RHS)…. and forming a promenade to the RC church (shown in background)…..

this is another angle showing more of the main street….

Our proposal was to demolish this building and construct a modern ‘book-end’ type building… however we have been advised by both the planning authority and the heritage council that the chances of getting permission to demolish this building is practically non-existant….. regardless of the actual architectural significance of it… i have contacted the Architectural Heritage Advisory Unit, and while they did not sound hopeful, they advised that i send off proposals to them….

Henno

What do you define as a significant building? The idea that only churches and the big house are worthy of protection is outdated. Modest 19th century vernacular builings like the one in your photograph also make a contribution to the character of our towns ,so to suggest that we should only preserve the top tiers of historic buildings is as outmoded a concept as facadism. The problem in Ireland today is that vernacular buildings such as this one, which positively contribute to the townscape, are being replaced with “architect designed” non descript timber clad monstrosities that look totally out of place in rural towns and are more suited to a city environment. If you travel across the rest of Europe you will find that simple vernacular buildings built by locals using local materials are highly valued and sought after. However , sadly it seems that in Ireland we are prepared to destroy what future generations may value for the sake of often illusory gain. In my view the problem with Heritage protection in this country is that it is left up to the local authority to decide what merits addition to the RPS (record of protected structures) and in many cases they do not have the staff or resources to carry out this role adequately. A centralised listing body like they have in most other western countries would remove a scenario like that in Clonmel where a Georgian building faces an uncertain future purely to facilitate a local builder and not because of its lack of architectural merit. It is a mark of a country who respects its heritage but unfortunately in modern Ireland some like Cllr Prendergast see it as the “Heritage barrier”.
None of what I said above should be construed as antidevelopment and should not preclude it, just do it in a sustainable manner. If Clonmel needs a shopping centre or a carpark then a suitable site should be found , not one that happens to be owned by a speculator.:(

Blaise,
i thank you for your input, since this first emerged ive learnt a huge amount regarding conservationism and the theory behind this….. however my initial opinion still stands.

what i consider ‘significant’ is a building that, by merit of its citing and design, contributes positively to its surroundings, be it urban or rural. The description youve given above about ‘vernacular buildings’ is the exact problem i see with the system. Just because a building was built a certian time period in the past using (maybe) local material and local workmanship, should, in my opinion, not be case for retaining it in lieu of appropriate development… that is a human trait called ‘hoarding’, which can sometimes be pathological. I believe ‘vernacular’ should be an organic term that progresses and develops over the passage of time. The vernacular of streets should be allowed to progress. This of course, is my opinion, im not qualified in this department, but i would like to be considered to have enough knowledge to recognise that the situation ive given you above is improper. there has been so much ignorant work done to the building over the years to leave it insignificant… just because the walls may be wattle shouldnt be a reason to save it from the sledge….

I do not know the building in question and can give no opinion on the merits of the development . But this much is obvious:as long as local authorities have the power to list or de-list no historic building is safe.This power should be taken away from them post haste. It is obvious that it is being, and will be abused, given the appalling propensity for venality,short-sightedness, development mania and ignorance among Irish county councillors. We don’t allow the members of councils to decide on the merits of biological, botanical and natural planning criteria (ie, they’re not allowed to de-list wetlands and forests ) so why should people that are, to be blunt,in many cases ignorant fools be allowed the power over our built heritage.:mad:

does anyone know of any structure that was de-listed by a council????

the above post is a bit sensationalist in that respect…..

Hiivaladan’s post is sadly all to accurate, henno.

Curious to know what you thought of the content of the post I linked to above, given that it was info you requested specifically.

henno

Your point is fair enough and well put. To be honest I have seen much better buildings being given the green light for demolition but the overall feeling of disatisfaction with the performance of our councils in protecting heritage is notable. groups like an taisce are somewhat portrayed as being very antidevelopment but if you look at the figure they only make comments on a tiny fraction of planning applications.

Robert

your post in the link is an excellent synopsis of the process ctesiphon… thank you for it….

however, i was in informed by a heritage officer yesterday that the NIAH is not a statutory list, the RPS is the statutory instrument. While it is very hard for an unworthy structure to be included in the NIAH, unfortunately, as you eluded to in your first paragraph, the list complied in the 70’s was pretty informal and lacked in-depth recording…. thats exactly my problem with the example ive given… the building doesn’t have a NIAH number, it has a low generation RPS number meaning it must have been one of the first on the list in the county… and you can see with the way the list was constructed that it was simply someone moving geographically through the towns in the county…… noting buildings in an ad hoc manner… typical Irish solution to an Irish problem…

you argue in your post By highlighting good work, notable historic sites, innovative practices and design, it would be hoped that the wider public should gain an understanding of what constitutes the best of Irish Architectural Heritage.… i agree with that ideal completely. however that does not mean that there are buildings ‘protected’ that do not offer anything of what you’ve described, and are just listed simply because of their age……

we all know the consequences of a building being included on the RPS list…. its paramount that there is some procedure to allow owners apply to get their building de-listed because, as has been argued above, not every building deserves to be on the list, either simply by not being investigated fully or by being erroneously included….

i would take issue with a bland statement that councilors are ‘ignorant fools’….. again, has any ever heard of a deserving building being de-listed to promote development??? i surely haven’t and the heritage officer i was talking to yesterday couldn’t give me one example either… councilors are not going to de-list a building to accommodate private development…

it gets even more frustrating when clients are put through bureaucratic and paranoid hoops when applying to carry out works to protected structures, trying to breath life into a derelict shell… only for their efforts to be thwarted and opposed at every turn… the end result almost always being the client running from the project because of all the opposition they face during the process…..
i had another experience of a client wanting to sensitively convert a derelict 1840’s Georgian building into apartments, the ground floor of which was below the ‘design freeboard’ level of a flood plain… the floors couldn’t be altered because of its protected status and the council wouldn’t give permission as it was a flood risk, therefore the building continues to lie derelict and decrepit for the foreseeable future….. because the building cannot be developed.

Unless my memory fails me, I am aware of at least three examples-reported in the Irish Times, I’m certain-in the West of Ireland, of attempts to de-list buildings to facilitate developments. I will try to check on this. As for “Ignorant Fools”..let’s see Kerry County Council ring any bells? Have Irish councillors ever been remarkable for their understanding of our built or natural heritage?

Bewelys in Dublin

Bewelys was de-listed????

not according to page 396 of the councils current RPS list…..

im not talking about attempts, im talking about actual de-listing by county councilors…. anyone?

It had additional listing added which features the current use being preserved.

Joydivision disagrees with me on the long term outcome but visionary support for the integrity of the structure by virtue of it continuing in its intended use was provided by Michael Connaghan, Oisin Quinn and every other councillor on DCC.

so its the commercial use of the building thats protected and not the building fabric??…. i admit im not at all up to speed with the happenings in bewelys over the last few years… are you saying the councilors were in favour of delisting it??? did it actually happen?…..

Both were protected once the use was tied

No-one talked about delisting the structure and fabric but a shoe shop or Ann Summers wouldn’t be the same would it?

Here are two examples. Sligo Council recently delisted a number of thatched structures in the county and in-of course-Kerry, we have this http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2005/05/19/story840131144.asp
It seems the complaints of owners of listed buildings that the listing of their properties is inconvenient and onerous on them is enough tp persuade friendly councillors to do the necessary. Then there was the York Street business here in Dublin.

@Hiivaladan wrote:

Here are two examples. Sligo Council recently delisted a number of thatched structures in the county and in-of course-Kerry, we have this http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2005/05/19/story840131144.asp
It seems the complaints of owners of listed buildings that the listing of their properties is inconvenient and onerous on them is enough tp persuade friendly councillors to do the necessary. Than there was the York Street business here in Dublin.

Very interesting thread. My inclination is to protect and I am a supporter of An Taisce.

However I agree that some frightful rubbish is listed. I have in mind one particular ruin which is costing the owner thousands every year to secure from vandals/refurbish after vandalism. It is the ugliest piece of rubbish I have ever seen listed, is totally derilict and was added to the list in very recent times due to local demand. Its only claim to fame is a connection with an obscure minor irish writer.

It seems quite unfair to me and I have a lot of sympathy for the owner (it came with a farm purchase and was an unlisted ruin at the time).

However, as I said above, it is almost certainly better to err on the side of adding rather than deleting from the list.

well, well….. thanks hiivaladan…. its very handy to have information to reinforce an argument…

i know im barking up a tree with my proposal, but i hope the experience will be worth it… the knowledge ive gained on this site alone has been worth it so far….

@Tippfm News website wrote:

One of the main stumbling blocks preventing the development of a
multi-storey car-park in Clonmel may have been overcome.

Despite advice to the contrary from Council officials, the members
of Clonmel Borough Council have decided to de-list the former
Clonmel Arms hotel site.

According to Fianna Fail representative Niall Dennehy they hope
this change to the draft development plan will clear the way for the
BORC Project to progress..

All in the interests of providing a multi-storey car park :rolleyes:

The elegant Clonmel Arms Hotel, marred by plastic windows on its upper floors and clunky modern extension to the right-hand side.

Still has railings, doorcases and other features intact.

Interesting arrangement of doors. And what of that magnificent adjoining facade – is this to be swept away too?

A second planning application, was lodged to Clonmel Borough Council and granted and again An Taisce have appealed the decision As one can image An Taisce are as popular as ever:D Have to say I’m with An Taisce on this one, while the town may need a multi-storey car park for 60 days in the year, what’s proposed and where its proposed aren’t the solution.