Cork Transport

I don’t think that the people in Cork would agree that their terminal was a sqaundering of money; I’d say that the continuance of Hanlon Bourke & Co in their politically motivated positions was the real squandering.

Bourke was quoted in 2002 in the Brussels based Airports Council International as saying ‘Who else other than Aer Rianta would build a €120m terminal for Cork’ like Cork was some economic basket case. I did my own calculations using a copy of EF Spon and came to the conclusion that the real cost was about €80m

Sorry but I can’t see at all how cork airport doesn’t need this new terminal. Last night when I came back from Geneva (through Amsterdam) there were 9 planes parked there, 3 in front of the current terminal and the rest beside the new one. When we got inside it was absolutely jam packed at the luggage reclaim with around 4 times more people than what’s supposed to be there. I know I’m not quoting any figures or anything but from my arrival yesterday this new terminal look like plain common sense.

you need to look at this on a national basis. cork has enough to support a small airport . but if shannon was connected with a railway line to galway limerick and cork it could no doubt support 20 million people a year.

you would need to have two track the whole way between cork and galway. If you built them to 200 km/h spec. it would only take about 40 minutes. That is no skin off anyone’s nose. It take much longer to get to dublin airport from parts of dublin.

but if you had it in shannon it would be within reach of all the people on the eastern side of the country , a big number.

the reason i say that the hundred and eighty million (a number that appears to be in dispute , but even if it cost only 80 million it doesn’t matter). Yes say it cost eighty million. Well ryanair built on in germany with the same capacity for 18 million. I understand that what is built in cork has plummeted the airport in debt , which the ‘company’ is petrified of. So i think i can safely say the money was squandered.

If you wanted to spend 180 million on cork , having built a railway line to galway, you could build a short light rail route which passed by the busiest parts of cork. That would be better for everyone.

In is a bit obnoxious but germany did it and they have no traffic jams. You do not build roads trains airports where people are currently going or would like to go. You built these things where you want people to go. !! So if you look at a map of the german motorway system there are almost no direct motorway connection between cities. It is a tough idea to get your head around but it is the right way to do things (it just pisses off a lot of people until it is done —> of course that is how you know you are doing the right thing!!)

@a boyle wrote:

you need to look at this on a national basis. cork has enough to support a small airport . but if shannon was connected with a railway line to galway limerick and cork it could no doubt support 20 million people a year.

you would need to have two track the whole way between cork and galway. If you built them to 200 km/h spec. it would only take about 40 minutes. That is no skin off anyone’s nose. It take much longer to get to dublin airport from parts of dublin.

but if you had it in shannon it would be within reach of all the people on the eastern side of the country , a big number.

the reason i say that the hundred and eighty million (a number that appears to be in dispute , but even if it cost only 80 million it doesn’t matter). Yes say it cost eighty million. Well ryanair built on in germany with the same capacity for 18 million. I understand that what is built in cork has plummeted the airport in debt , which the ‘company’ is petrified of. So i think i can safely say the money was squandered.

If you wanted to spend 180 million on cork , having built a railway line to galway, you could build a short light rail route which passed by the busiest parts of cork. That would be better for everyone.

In is a bit obnoxious but germany did it and they have no traffic jams. You do not build roads trains airports where people are currently going or would like to go. You built these things where you want people to go. !! So if you look at a map of the german motorway system there are almost no direct motorway connection between cities. It is a tough idea to get your head around but it is the right way to do things (it just pisses off a lot of people until it is done —> of course that is how you know you are doing the right thing!!)

This misconception about the Cork/Hahn comparison is often introduced into debates about Cork airport. In fairness, it shows how effective Ryanair’s PR machine is, but the facts of the matter are different.

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2003/06/22/story38861991.asp

Development plans for Cork Airport were formulated in consultation with airlines and their representatives, and their combined views significantly influenced the ultimate plan.

Many of the issues at Cork have their roots in its original 1950s design, which left it too small and constrained to handle the growing demand from new and existing airlines, and to cater adequately for the stringent safety and security measures required of international airports. We had proposed a less ambitious expansion at Cork, but the airline users vehemently objected and demanded a new building rather than the planned extension to the existing building. A consultation process resulted in a plan that met the airlines’ requirements as well as meeting all other associated demands for infrastructure, utilities etc.

But let me address Ryanair’s specific cost comparisons of the development at Frankfurt Hahn and at Cork.

Firstly, the new terminal at Cork will cost &#8364]

Then, regarding Shannon airport:

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2006/06/25/story15278.asp

Shannon to lose €10m following US departure
Sunday, June 25, 2006 – By Niamh Connolly, Political Reporter
Politicians were warned last week that Shannon Airport’s viability was in doubt, and its separation from the Dublin Airport Authority (DAA) was unlikely to take place in the foreseeable future.

The largest carrier of US military personnel through Shannon, World Airways, will move its primary stopover for flights to Leipzig in Germany. GaryMcGann, chairman of the DAA, told an Oireachtas committee last week that Shannon’s ‘‘significant underlying losses’’ were masked by the impact of US military traffic. He said costs were too high and out of step with Dublin and Cork airports. McGann did not quantify the losses but said that the revenue from the US military flights was ‘‘shoring up’’ income at Shannon by between €7million and €9million a year.

The Sunday Business Post has learned that when military activity is stripped out, Shannon Airport’s losses amounted to €2.25 million for January and February of this year. The withdrawal of the Shannon stopover this November, which is expected to cost at least €4million a year in revenue, puts the airport on an even more insecure financial footing. The airport still needs money for capital expenditure on buildings, its airside ramp and runway. Maintenance costs are expected to run to €10million over the next six years. ‘‘Shannon is not viable; it’s losing money,” McGann told the committee last week. ‘‘In the last year or two, it has been supplemented in its income because of military traffic.

There’s no prospect of Shannon being viable at all in the next number of years; hence no prospect of separation.”

And I must also agree with A-ha above. One particular example: It is well known that a deciding factor for EMC to locate in Cork was the availability, proximity and convenience of Cork airport. EMC fly in customers to visit their plant on their own jets which are based in Cork. EMC employs around 1600 in Cork, I think.

A Boyle

Instead of pushing this Shannon idea ad nauseum why don’t you examine the millions being squandred on the regional airports such as the €500 subsidy on each seat to Knock as well as subsidies to Farranfore and Galway.

Lets face it Shannon is up the Creek because it is over staffed and poorly managed it also has no sizeable City to back it given that current policy is to get taxpayers to fund BAE model aircraft to ferry 3-4 business people to Dublin at a time from Galway. Who have their own ‘International Airport’ and have interest in joining with Limerick to try to make Shannon viable.

If the terminal at Cork cost €70-80m then it was worth it; the retail accomodation of 3500 sq m will generate €3-5m per year and I would hate to think what profits the parking will extract from regular users.

Re The rail idea for Shannon what is the status of the Beaux Walk rail spur that they undertook to provide as a planning condition of the shopping centre they built?

@mickeydocs wrote:

Use of Cork airport is not just limited to people from Cork, lots of people from Munster much prefer using Cork rather than go to Dublin.

It would be interesting to compare passenger figures for Cork and Shannon if transatlantic flights were also allowed for Cork (as they will be in the not too distant future).

Cork had more passengers than Shannon in 2004, however this trend was reversed in 2005 because of the huge increase in passenger numbers at Shannon due to US Military using the base as a stopover on their way to Iraq.

Twist there mickeydocs, are you done with the polishing….:D

I bet it would since Transatlantic was the main player for Shannon, and due to open skies, American routes going to Dublin, and September 11 (don’t know exact figures but transatlantic hold more than half of all in and outbound flights at Shannon) plummeted. Only for Ryanair it would have being a very bad year for Shannon. While Cork was busy opening new routes to Europe,and I will even say that they did well considering…

Yes I will agree about Millitary passing through, but its still was static due to less Americans flying, so either way it was balancing.

Shannon over the years and done better finacially than Cork, DDA was more sympathic to Cork If I can remember.

Also I must say, It’s a new phenomenon for shannon to have European flights into the airport.

I think it would be better in the long run for many reasons to scrapp Cork airport and merge it into shannon. I can see how threathned the cork people are, but you don’t want to see the positive.

Bottom line Shannon is overstaffed and badly managed furthermore it has no rail connection and has onlt Limerick to support it now that Galway is developing its own little airfield thanks to exchequer hand outs.

I agree that Shannon has in theory cleared its debts by a sharp accounting trick of shifting them onto the Dublin Airport Authority; it has been a very clever trick to have a grand terminal in Shannon that is overstaffed and empty most of the day whilst Cork has had airbridges removed from its badly needed and late new terminal and Dublin airport resembles the Long Mile Road Caravan centre and both cannot be resolved because the government has left Shannon debt free. Which I can only presume is so that it can accumulate another pile of debt in gauranteed operational losses.

I think it would be better in the long run for many reasons to scrapp Cork airport and merge it into shannon. I can see how threathned the cork people are, but you don’t want to see the positive.

Lets see. Of two airports, you want to scrap the one with more traffic*, the bigger catchment area of the two in terms of population, and closer to the second biggest city in the state. And keep open the one that has only survived carrying large numbers of unnecssary staff because of political support. Nice plan there. In reality, the only thing that CNN has over Cork is that it has longer runways. Apart from that, its much easier to make a case for the inverse, close SNN and keep Cork. In reality, the state needs them both. Both Cork and Limerick need airports. There is no economic or regional development rationale for closing one. Knock, however, is a different matter.

*or will have as soon as open skies comes into effect, and the US troop numbers dwindle.

@mickeydocs wrote:

Just wondering how Irish Rails proposed once an hour scheduled rail service to Dublin will fare now that Ryanair are offering flights to Cork that amount to half the cost and one third of the travel time?

Ryanair are actually cutting flights on Cork-Dublin in the winter, while Aer Arann and Irish Rail are increasing frequency.

The service has a number of flaws.

It doesn’t allow for connections in Dublin, which is one of the main reasons to fly to Dublin.

Unless you are heading to Dublin Airport or Swords, there is no time saving in going to Dublin. You will lose significant time if your destination is on the southside of Dublin.

Their last flight back in the evening is too early. You need to leave central Dublin around 4-4:15pm to make the flight, which is unacceptably early for business travellers or for people finishing up after a day working in Dublin.

There aren’t enough flights. If you need to change, Aer Arann can offer you a reasonable alternative flight. If you want to change your Ryanair flight, there will be a long wait, if there is a flight at all.

A standard train ticket still offers the flexibility of getting whichever train you want. Ryanair are going to hit you with a change charge.

Combined, these are killers for business travellers who have mostly stuck to the train and Aer Arann.

Ironically, given what I’ve said, the best way for Ryanair to make a go of the route would be to increase the frequency, not reduce it.

But the rub is that Ryanair had a DeBlacham & Meaghar proposal of very high quality for Dublin Airport that would have cost the taxpayer nothing