Cork Transport
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surely angry rebel is missing the whole point – a 2+1 system would be entirely adequate alongside a viable train option – if the train was guaranteed in 2 hours less drivers would use the road and therefore motorway standard would not be required?
@bazarrus wrote:
surely angry rebel is missing the whole point – a 2+1 system would be entirely adequate alongside a viable train option – if the train was guaranteed in 2 hours less drivers would use the road and therefore motorway standard would not be required?
For the sake of only another 60 miles of road to be completed on the Dublin to Cork road, wouldn’t it be sensible to build all of this in dual carriage and hence far more future proof than 2+1.
Anyways, the NRA recently came out saying that 2+1 mightn’t be as safe as they thought and it mightn’t be used at all now.
well a 2+1 with slip roads on and off would certainly be much safer than other roads. And building such a road would a lot cheaper.
The reason i started this was to at least get somebody thinking . a easy billion is being spent building the road to cork. what other things might that have paid for ?
if the train had a very large capacity and was substantially faster than the road , how many would be left driving ?
Duilding a dualcarriage way does not future proof much at all, as i have repeatedly tried to explain. What it does is fuel the city sprawl, generating useless commuter traffic. I am not trying to blame the people who do live in the outer suburbs. They are caught in the difficult position of having no options.
As a country one ought to be putting in place group transport before individual transport.
Now were are stuck with trying to entice a quarter of a million people into cork and dublin, because it will never be possible to service them adequately whereever they are, or at least at any reasonable cost.
@a boyle wrote:
well a 2+1 with slip roads on and off would certainly be much safer than other roads. And building such a road would a lot cheaper.
The reason i started this was to at least get somebody thinking . a easy billion is being spent building the road to cork. what other things might that have paid for ?
if the train had a very large capacity and was substantially faster than the road , how many would be left driving ?
Duilding a dualcarriage way does not future proof much at all, as i have repeatedly tried to explain. What it does is fuel the city sprawl, generating useless commuter traffic. I am not trying to blame the people who do live in the outer suburbs. They are caught in the difficult position of having no options.
As a country one ought to be putting in place group transport before individual transport.
Now were are stuck with trying to entice a quarter of a million people into cork and dublin, because it will never be possible to service them adequately whereever they are, or at least at any reasonable cost.
IIRC, 2+1 is only used in Sweden in Europe. Take a look at Denmark which is of a similar size to Ireland. They have a sizeable motorway network coupled with a decent rail network.
I’m not saying that 2+1 shouldn’t be used on other routes, but Ireland must be the only country in Western Europe not to have a motorway between its 2 largest cities.
Just on the Dunkettle Interchnage
Does anyone else think that a radical rethink is needed on this roundabout/interchange.
I’d personally get rid of the 2 sliproads feeding the Glounthane road for a start.
Secondly I would scrap the roadabout altogether and install a standard motorway interchange with all sliproads etc. You’d be talking no roundabout and no more traffic congestion around the tunnel.
@Micko wrote:
Just on the Dunkettle Interchnage
Does anyone else think that a radical rethink is needed on this roundabout/interchange.
I’d personally get rid of the 2 sliproads feeding the Glounthane road for a start.
Secondly I would scrap the roadabout altogether and install a standard motorway interchange with all sliproads etc. You’d be talking no roundabout and no more traffic congestion around the tunnel.
Im not sure about the possibility of lght rail or motorways n Cork. Its a village compared to Dublin anyway. Maybe they should just extend the heavy rail.
@a boyle wrote:
well a 2+1 with slip roads on and off would certainly be much safer than other roads. And building such a road would a lot cheaper.
The reason i started this was to at least get somebody thinking . a easy billion is being spent building the road to cork. what other things might that have paid for ?
if the train had a very large capacity and was substantially faster than the road , how many would be left driving ?
Duilding a dualcarriage way does not future proof much at all, as i have repeatedly tried to explain. What it does is fuel the city sprawl, generating useless commuter traffic. I am not trying to blame the people who do
I presume when you say “other roads” you don’t include dual carriageways and motorways in that, because 2+1s are not safer than those roads. Of course building a DC will future proof it because until we invent personal magic flying saucers or whatever, roads will remain a primary means of transport and demand for them will only rise, the provision of decent rail links notwithstanding.
The N8/M8 is not just about people commuting to Dublin or Cork, it is traffic between the two and beyond (eg Belfast and North Leinster), particularly commercial and freight traffic. That residual traffic which will always remain even with an excellent train service, in addition to local traffic (eg the punter going from Cashel to Cahir), in addition to those who the train doesn’t suit will require roads of a higher capacity than a 2+1.
As has been pointed out above, 2+1s are not the brilliant system they were initially thought. IMHO they would be better off just creating 2+1s using line paint and not bothering with the barrier. The mere creation of the overtaking lane removes the vast majority of the overtaking that can cause accidents. This works extremely well in Australia. Physically preventing overtaking is a bit nannyish, and more expensive. It has been done on the N71 from Cork to Bandon between Innishannon and Bandon. They simply repainted the road to make the hard shoulder another traffic lane. Cheap, effective, simple. For the price of the paint that could be done throughout the country where conditions allow.
Future proofing doesn’t have to involve building a dual carriageway in case it’s needed. All you have to do is reserve enough land to build a dual-carriageway, make sure all bridges can handle a dual carriageway and build a single-carriageway (or 2+1) road where one of the carriageways would be. That is enough to future proof and is substantially less costly than building the entire dual carriageway.
@jungle wrote:
Future proofing doesn’t have to involve building a dual carriageway in case it’s needed. All you have to do is reserve enough land to build a dual-carriageway, make sure all bridges can handle a dual carriageway and build a single-carriageway (or 2+1) road where one of the carriageways would be. That is enough to future proof and is substantially less costly than building the entire dual carriageway.
Again, it looks as if the NRA are not going to use 2+1 after all due to safety issues. A lot of reported crashes where the end of 2nd lane comes up. People trying to get past others before the lane ends and then crash into the barrier before making it.
For the sake of a few million euro, the Cork Dublin road has to be completed in dual carriageway.
The 2+1 was primarily going to be used on the Galways to Sligo and Midleton to Waterford sections of the Atlantic Corridor. The Cork to Galway section is and was always going to be full dual carriageway.
Now, if 2+1 isn’t going to be used on the other 2 sections, what will they use ?
BTW, as I have pointed out already, in very heavy traffic, 2+1 is a worse setup than single carriageway. This is due to the fact that every 4 miles you will have 2 lanes converging into 1. This would be traffic chaos. This is reportedly another reason why the NRA has scraped the idea of using 2+1.
@Micko wrote:
Again, it looks as if the NRA are not going to use 2+1 after all due to safety issues. A lot of reported crashes where the end of 2nd lane comes up. People trying to get past others before the lane ends and then crash into the barrier before making it.
BTW, as I have pointed out already, in very heavy traffic, 2+1 is a worse setup than single carriageway. This is due to the fact that every 4 miles you will have 2 lanes converging into 1. This would be traffic chaos. This is reportedly another reason why the NRA has scraped the idea of using 2+1.
1 don’t build the barrier.
2 BTW in very heavy traffic this makes no sense.3 jungle is spot on , future proofing does not require building the road now but keeping the option open for the future.
4. commuter traffic at the edges of both cities takes up all the extra space on the dual carriageways heading into each city. So there is no , repeat no point in building a dualcarriage way between cashel and portaoise until you are able to upgrade the portlaoise dublin section to a 4 lane motorway , and dublin’s m50 to a min six lane motorway, and cork’s ring road to a four lane ring road.
@a boyle wrote:
1 don’t build the barrier.
2 BTW in very heavy traffic this makes no sense.3 jungle is spot on , future proofing does not require building the road now but keeping the option open for the future.
4. commuter traffic at the edges of both cities takes up all the extra space on the dual carriageways heading into each city. So there is no , repeat no point in building a dualcarriage way between cashel and portaoise until you are able to upgrade the portlaoise dublin section to a 4 lane motorway , and dublin’s m50 to a min six lane motorway, and cork’s ring road to a four lane ring road.
Boyle, the whole point of 2+1 is that you have a barrier to stop traffic running into oncoming traffic :confused:
Well, the Cork North Ring Road is going to be built over the next few years. And this will take a hell of a lot of traffic off the Dunkettle Interchange and the southern ring road.
I don’t think the M50 in dublin needs to be widened. What needs to be done is to sort out all the interchanges which is the main problem, not the lack of lanes.
Rumours aswell that the section of motorway between Portlaoise is all going to be upgraded to 6 lane motorway. This is evident as the section from Naas inwards is being upgraded to 6 lane.
Boyle, you’ll be delighted to hear that the entire stretch of the Atlantic Corridor between Cork to Galway is going to be Motorway/Dual Carriageway standard. Although I’ve heard that 2+1 isn’t going to be used in future, I can’t find anything on the internet about it. That prob still means that the Atlantic Corridor from Galway to Donegal and from Midleton to Kilmeaden will be 2+1.
@darkman wrote:
Im not sure about the possibility of lght rail or motorways n Cork. Its a village compared to Dublin anyway. Maybe they should just extend the heavy rail.
how is it a village compared to dublin when it has a third of its population ya typical dublin birdbrain!
@daniel_7 wrote:
how is it a village compared to dublin when it has a third of its population ya typical dublin birdbrain!
He is on about Dublin Metropolis….. didn’t you hear daniel, it’s bigger than Tokyo, London, New York and Paris combined. :rolleyes:
I didn’t know that a Kerry man was behind the new airline FlyGibraltar, but here it is in front of me on the Sunday Times Business section. Flights are to start early next year from Cork and Dublin to Gibraltar. Here’s a picture of what we can expect FlyGib
@A-ha wrote:
He is on about Dublin Metropolis….. didn’t you hear daniel, it’s bigger than Tokyo, London, New York and Paris combined. :rolleyes:
this whole population thing is pathetic.
the cso figures are.
dublin city : 505,739
cork city : 119,143
galway city : 71,983
limerick city: 52,560dublin in at least four times bigger than cork which is one and half times the size of galway which is one and half time the size of limerick.
Each city can push it’s boundaries out and come up with a bigger number .
if you do that with dublin you get 1,186,159 living in dublin county. tops a million people are living in a surburb which is contiguous with dublin ,
as for the other cities it is difficult to say since the urbanisation is so recent.
but cork could believably claim to 200000 galway 100000 and limerick 750000.
Just so we know where we stand.
Does anyone know anything about that Water Taxi service that was planned? I haven’t heard anything about it in ages. Maybe they abandoned the plan? :confused:
@a boyle wrote:
this whole population thing is pathetic.
the cso figures are.
dublin city : 505,739
cork city : 119,143
galway city : 71,983
limerick city: 52,560dublin in at least four times bigger than cork which is one and half times the size of galway which is one and half time the size of limerick.
Each city can push it’s boundaries out and come up with a bigger number .
if you do that with dublin you get 1,186,159 living in dublin county. tops a million people are living in a surburb which is contiguous with dublin ,
as for the other cities it is difficult to say since the urbanisation is so recent.
but cork could believably claim to 200000 galway 100000 and limerick 750000.
Just so we know where we stand.
You could reasonabley expect at least 250,000 out of cork if the likes of Glanmire and Ballincollig was included. I’m guessing you mean 75,000 for Limerick. 😀
Greater Cork is 186,000 according to 2002 cencus. That doesn’t inclue Douglas which has 20,000 people. Glanmire another 15,000. Ballincollig 15,000 and sundry others which might add up to 10,000.
That would be 256,000.
Add in Midleton, Blarney and Carrigaline you get to 274,000 which is the figure stated in the Cork Housing Strategy for the Metropolitan Cork Area.
@Micko wrote:
You could reasonabley expect at least 250,000 out of cork if the likes of Glanmire and Ballincollig was included. I’m guessing you mean 75,000 for Limerick. 😀
Greater Cork is 186,000 according to 2002 cencus. That doesn’t inclue Douglas which has 20,000 people. Glanmire another 15,000. Ballincollig 15,000 and sundry others which might add up to 10,000.
That would be 256,000.
Add in Midleton, Blarney and Carrigaline you get to 274,000 which is the figure stated in the Cork Housing Strategy for the Metropolitan Cork Area.
just stop . how ever many you add dublin can add many more and the other cities can add just as many. it is really silly. leixslip/celbridge is physically connect to dublin ‘city’ but sits in kildare. will i add another 50000.
does dublin stretch to greystones (another 10000).
get over it. all the cities have grown .
Dublin remains a big town, cork a town galway a small town , and limerick another small town.
who cares if cork has a quarter of a million does it change anything ?
@a boyle wrote:
who cares if cork has a quarter of a million does it change anything ?
No it doesn’t…. now that Water Taxi anyone??? lol.
@a boyle wrote:
just stop . how ever many you add dublin can add many more and the other cities can add just as many. it is really silly. leixslip/celbridge is physically connect to dublin ‘city’ but sits in kildare. will i add another 50000.
does dublin stretch to greystones (another 10000).
get over it. all the cities have grown .
Dublin remains a big town, cork a town galway a small town , and limerick another small town.
who cares if cork has a quarter of a million does it change anything ?
On this point A Boyle is right. I would call Cork’s urban population 250,000 but even at that it is, at best, 1/4 the size of Dublin. Galway is about 100,000 and Limerick a little less when the right boundaries are used for all the cities.
Where I wouldn’t agree with the discussion on populations is with Darkman. Sure, relative to Dublin, Cork is v. small (call it a village if it keeps him happy) but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t and shouldn’t get light rail / trams in the short term. Yes Dublin had to wait til it was a 1m city before it got light rail but that was ridiculous. All over Europe there are cities the same size (and smaller) than Cork with proper public transport. This is before we factor in expected population growth in Cork in the next generation of 100,000+. Because of its Centre Island make up, the core of Cork City is ideal for full pedestrianisation with light rail / trams running through it. building such a system now for Cork is no more premature than building (as we allegedly are) Metro for Dublin. Both cities can support each now but clearly will need them into the future. What is wrong with forward planning now? I think Transport 21 should be ripped up and chucked in the bin as it basically is just a plan for Dublin and its commuter belt. If we are serious about regional growth (which Dublin would in truth be the main benefactor from) then a transport plan which sees funding for projects along the lines of, say, 35% for Dublin & hinterland, 15% for Cork & hinterland, 7-10% each for Galway & Limerick, etc is needed to let the other regions play catch up with Dublin. I don’t know the statistical break down of funding under Transport 21 but I’d be amazed if Dublin & Hinterland was getting anything less than 50-60%.
Very well made points
One has to look at where the ball is going and not where it has come from; Cork Docklands represents the best redevelopment opportunity in Ireland at the present time and with a solid transport foundation Cork could become a model for many other cities that wish to grow from 250,000 population at a rate of 3-4% a year but without the proper foundations it will become mired in gridlock as Dublin has over the past decade.
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