Cork Transport
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From Wednesdays NRA announcement about the “Longest New Road Project in Ireland to be Built”
“The NRA announced today that the longest new motorway project to be built in Ireland will commence work this October. At 40 km in length the M8/N8 Cullahill-Cashel Project will take the inter-urban connection between Dublin and Cork one giant step forward.”
Longest motorway eh? Sounds impressive….but wait…..
“The M8/N8 Cullahill to Cashel Road Improvement Scheme comprises 30 km of two-lane dual carriageway and 10 km of motorway, with associated grade separated junctions, underbridges, overbridges and accommodation works through primarily a green field site. “
Why the F&*K are we building bits of motorway and bits of dual carriageway on the same route. We were promised motorway between the major urban centres and now they’re sticking bits of dual carriageway in between sections of motorway?!?! 😮
The total cost still works out at €10m per km……
@Angry Rebel wrote:
From Wednesdays NRA announcement about the “Longest New Road Project in Ireland to be Built”
“The NRA announced today that the longest new motorway project to be built in Ireland will commence work this October. At 40 km in length the M8/N8 Cullahill-Cashel Project will take the inter-urban connection between Dublin and Cork one giant step forward.”
Longest motorway eh? Sounds impressive….but wait…..
“The M8/N8 Cullahill to Cashel Road Improvement Scheme comprises 30 km of two-lane dual carriageway and 10 km of motorway, with associated grade separated junctions, underbridges, overbridges and accommodation works through primarily a green field site. “
Why the F&*K are we building bits of motorway and bits of dual carriageway on the same route. We were promised motorway between the major urban centres and now they’re sticking bits of dual carriageway in between sections of motorway?!?! 😮
The total cost still works out at €10m per km……
there is no difference between them (almost). It has to do with designation. dual carriage ways can accomodate farming equipment. Not a big deal. Motorways also have to follow very strict criteria which are considerably looser for dual carriage ways.
@a boyle wrote:
there is no difference between them (almost). It has to do with designation. dual carriage ways can accomodate farming equipment. Not a big deal. Motorways also have to follow very strict criteria which are considerably looser for dual carriage ways.
I’d rather do 120km/h than 100km/h!! That’s where the impact on the travelling public is. Dual carriageways should not be allowed have farm equipment on them, so many of them use a lane rather than the hard shoulder and are very dangerous. In 99% of the cases where there is a dual carriageway, there is also an alternative route which was fine for agri machinery before the DC was built (eg. every dual carriageway out of Cork city).
I realise there are different design criteria for motorways, which is as it should be, as doing 120km/h requires better sight lines etc and a whole load of other fac tors…..but my point is why didn’t they design and build it as a motorway?
because the decision to build a motorway system was entirely political.
The motorway system we need is built: that is a motorway to portlaoise and one to belfast. The routes the rest of the way only need relief road (with lots of roundabout in some case and flyovers in others).
You might not believe it but we actually very low ownership of cars in europe. We just have such trully atrocious other forms of transport that it forces us onto the roads.
You can see this by the fact that some people actually fly between cork and dublin which is just mad.
With respect to the dublin/cork road. Very simply none of the train tracks between dublin and cork have been changed since originally built. The metal used has been replaced with new improved track, but none of the bends of turns have been removed so the time takes the same. Also none of the train stations have been improved to allow a train to bypass a station. If this was done you could have a journey between dublin and cork of less than 2 hours. While this might not stop you driving it would stop a lot of other people.
You would be able to drive at a hundred kilometres between cork and portlaoise and 120 km/h to dublin.
Now while you probably think that you deserve to drive at 120 or 160 km/h(as i want to) , you would have to agree that if you were sitting taking the decisions with 10 billion in your pockets to spend that you would not have proceeded as we have.
a boyle…what amazes me about you, and makes me think you just come on here to stir, is that you manage to post a collection of thoughts that mix the excellent and the riduculous…where do I start.
1 – Since the decision to build a motorway network was political, why are the bodies responsible for delivery not following the wishes of those elected politicians?
2 – Going to Cork, have you driven from the Portlaoise turnoff to Johnstown? It’s absolute rubbish. If you can average 70km/h through there then you’ve done it at 4am! Relief roads and roundabouts?! Sure just leave us in the Stone Age altogether. It’s not a question of not investing in roads so that we can invest in public transport (or Shannon 😉 ). It has to be both.
3 – In 30 years, our car ownership has tripled to 1.3million, yet many sections of our roads are substantially as they were 30 years ago. Our ownership relative to Europe is partially reflected in our roads, in countries where they have higher ownership, they build 3 lane motorways. Where we have lower ownership, we should build only 2 lane motorways. That makes sense, except we don’t build the motorways, we build dual carraigeways, or “wide single carriageway”. [2002 Eurostat info, the latest available, we have 375 cars per 100 people, where the EU-25 average is 463. Given our prosperity in the last 4 years compared to Europe, and judging by our new car sales each year since then, it’s a pretty safe bet that we’re a lot closer to that number than we were]
4 – I fly between Cork and Dublin. As did 238,163 other people in 2005 who seem to find it a good idea. Flying, you can be in Dublin city centre at 08:00, have a 4 hour meeting and be back in Cork in your office at 14:30! Driving, you’d have to leave at 04:30, and you’d be back at 15:00. On the train, you’d have to leave at 05:30 (and you’d arrive an hour late) and you’d be back in Cork at 15:50. Do any of these alternatives sound more productive, or less stressful?
I agree I wouldn’t have proceeded as we have, I’d have spent it better. They’ve pissed a lot of it away. Here’s a very short wishlist.
- The right kind of investment in trains, track and station, to get a sub 2 hour service between Cork and Dublin
- 2 large contracts (not 8/10 small ones), big enough to attract the largest and most competitive overseas contractors, to design and build motorway between Cork and Dublin. Buses would do well on these motorways too!
Have to agree with Angry Rebel,
I think its madness to be building all these dual carriageways up to Motorway standard and yet not classify them as Motorways.
Every single new stretch of road being built has an alternative route.
Glanmire to Watergrashill has an alternative route. As does Cork to Carrigtohill. As does Ballincollig bypass etc etc.
Cork to Dublin should have been built entirely to Motorway standard. Not doing it from the start is just bizarre.
Angry Rebel wrote:1 – Going to Cork, have you driven from the Portlaoise turnoff to Johnstown? It’s absolute rubbish. If you can average 70km/h through there then you’ve done it at 4am! Relief roads and roundabouts?! Sure just leave us in the Stone Age altogether. It’s not a question of not investing in roads so that we can invest in public transport (or Shannon ]1 yes you can’t do an average of 70 km/h anywhere. But it is not because there are too many cars on the roads. It is because of poor driving , and poor design. With between portaiose and fermoy a single direct 2+1 road which skirts each town and village would provide enough space for the amount of cars using the road. in most cases you could build over passes and under passes for such a road. in a small number of cases you might build a roundabout. Such a good quality road would have cost less than half the cost of what we are building and been more than sufficient. It would have allowed for a realistic 90km/h between portaloise and cork.
Now i would argue that the additional benifit to cork and dublin of dubling the budget (to build a dual carriage way and motorway) in order to allow a realistic driving speed of 110/120km/h is just not worth the money. Such billions is better spent on a new rail line to cork. which could realistically have a 200km/h speed. That would give you and end to end travel time of 1hour and half.
2 yes lots of people fly but at tremendous cost. these people should be getting a really good train. i know of nowhere else where this is replicated.
3 this contracts idea of yours is good but flawed .basically is you lump it all together you have to wait until the whole thing is finished in order to open it. If you chose to open it in bits then you remove the point of lumping the whole thing together. Also you don’t continually save more money by making the projects bigger. Our projects are of a substantial size , it is not clear that much would be saved.
The problem of over runs had to do with the way the contracts were drawn up, and this has been sorted out. And as you will have no doubt read almost all road projects are both on time and on budget now.4
Finnally you are right to say we should be spending on both motorways and trains and busses and planes . But there is only so much money . And it has all been spent (by a ratio of nearly 8 to 1) on these motorways. To argue that we should just go and spend more billions on the other projects is not the answer. We don’t need all this .
😡 At the risk of being censored….but I reckon you’re just trying to wind me up now……
@a boyle wrote:
1 yes you can’t do an average of 70 km/h anywhere.
Bullshit. What about Cork – Fermoy? Fermoy – Mitchelstown? Mitchelstown – Cahir? Portlaoise – Dublin?
@a boyle wrote:
With between portaiose and fermoy a single direct 2+1 road which skirts each town and village would provide enough space for the amount of cars using the road.
Bullshit. Do you have the slightest idea of the volume of commerical and passenger traffic using that road.
@a boyle wrote:
a small number of cases you might build a roundabout
Bullshit. There should NEVER be a roundabout on a major interurban route like that. Why are we obsessed with roundabouts in Ireland?
@a boyle wrote:
It would have allowed for a realistic 90km/h between portaloise and cork.
Bullshit. The NRA are aiming for a 96km/h average using dual carriageways and motorways. How do you think you’d get 90 using 2+1s?
@a boyle wrote:
2 yes lots of people fly but at tremendous cost. these people should be getting a really good train. i know of nowhere else where this is replicated.
Bullshit. I’ve regularly flown for 1 cent (plus taxes). Even the more expensive fares are better value that Citygold. You can get a seat with Ryanair for next Wednesday (I’d call that reasonably short notice for 9.99 each way. You don’t get allocated a specific seat, but you won’t be sitting in the aisle like our poor rail travellers.
I think these interurbans should be prioritised, but I think it’s wrong that it’s to the extent that public transport doesn’t get what it needs. But you? You think rail should be a bottomless pit at the expense of roads, airports and all other useful forms of transport!
no i don’t think rail should take priority over other forms of transport , i think it has it’s place.
with regard to the volume of traffic. what is it ? do you know ?
fine don’t put in any roundabouts , no problem. The main point remains valid. building a single two plus one road that is fully seperated from other roads is more than sufficient between portaoise and fermoy.
With respectto flying . these flights are subsized to the tune of 300 400 500euros per person per flight. It is a plain waste of money by comparison with a decent rail link.
I repeat such savings would allow for a rail link between dublin and cork with a journey time of less than one and a half hours. I put it to you that such an investment would radically reduce the demand for road space. (and incidentally air space too). This is the appropriate investment. Already the whole motorway concept has fallen flat on it’s face with the tremendous build up on the m50 . And although some of that is attributable to the poor interchanges , the new free flow interchanges are expected to improve things by 10 percent when they are built .
You are confusing what is needed with what appears to be needed.
If you don’t improve the trains and don’t give any priority to buses then motorways will seem vital (and flying).
Bluntly what is the point of building a motorway between the two towns , allowing ten of thousands of cars to drive on it, when either end cannot cope and never ever will because both cities were designed centuries ago.
It is a question of getting the most for your money . we are getting very little. Now go travel and look how other countries service towns of comparable size to dublin and cork . look at the availability of public transport and road network.
In relation to aviation subsidies these do not feature on any route out of Cork or Dublin that goes to any major population centre.
Subsidies are limited to
Knock
Galway Less than one hours drive from Shannon
Sligo Less than 30 minutes drive from Knock
Donegal In the absolute middle of nowhere and L’Kenny is a mere 30 minutes from Derry Int Airport
Kerry Ryanair is doing the Biz here without any subsidies whatsoeverBut this should be discussed on Airports see here
Re Roundabouts see here
Yes. You see I’m willing to obtain facts instead of making them up. For June 2006
Mitchelstown 14k per day
New Inn 11k per day
Urlingford 12k per day
Abbeyleix 14k per day2+1 or standard roads not a lot of good when a good proportion of those (above) are:
1 – tractors doing 25km/h
2 – muppets who want to do 70km/h and won’t pull over to let people past
3 – trucks who can’t/shouldn’t be doing more than 80km/h.The NRA indicate that a standard 2 lane road (which you are in effect proposing, just that it will have periodic overtaking opportunities) has capacity for only 6,500 cars per day.
A dual carriageway provides capacity for 34,600. That is good future proofing.
Your example of the M50 is useless as it’s is not a relevant comparison to a major interurban motorway. The M50 did not have sufficient capacity for the traffic using it, and Dublin’s planners made it worse by situating so much development along it and instead of fully freeflowing interchanges by using your favoured means of joining roads…roundabouts! Where does your 10% figure come from? To suggest the “motorway concept” has failed based on the M50 is laughable.
“300 400 500 euro”. Yippeeeee. Let’s pluck a random number out of the air!!! There is NO SUBSIDY on the Cork -Dublin route.
Boyle, 2+1 isn’t good enough for Cork Dublin and recently has been shown that it will not even be good enough for the Cork to Galway western corridor.
In fact the NRA are now even reviewing the usage of 2+1 roads and their the possibility that 2+1 roads may not be used at all.
Cork to Dublin needs a full motorway. Not the the mish mash that we are getting, while the Dubs are getting motorways EVERYWHERE.
And the last thing this country needs is another roundabout.
You mightn’t, but I have to go through the Dunkettle Interchange each day. The roundabout is a joke. Traffic lights and roundabouts is a uniquely Irish phenomenon. If the NRA had done it right from day one, then the Tunnel roundabout would have been nothing but slip roads.
Same goes for the M50. the reason the M50 is blocked up is due to the poor usage of roundabouts in the M50’s interchanges. If the the road building authorities had any idea at all, the M50 would have been built with no roundabouts at its junctions.
Boyle, you also do realise that Irish Rail have announced that the Cork – Dublin trains will be travelling at 200k/h once all the track upgrades will be completed by around October ?
I also have to agree with Angry Rebel that there is no subsidy on the Aer Arann Cork Dublin flight route. Why would you actually want to go by train if you could fly for half the price ?
By the way, the M7/M8 interchange near Portlaoise will be 120kmh motorway. The N8 dual carriageways being built will not be motorway officially, but will probobly be 120kmh under the new rules. Its just a change of label for the farmers, as they cant drive on motorways.
Yes its totally stupid, but it makes little difference in the end.
@THE_Chris wrote:
By the way, the M7/M8 interchange near Portlaoise will be 120kmh motorway. The N8 dual carriageways being built will not be motorway officially, but will probobly be 120kmh under the new rules. Its just a change of label for the farmers, as they cant drive on motorways.
Yes its totally stupid, but it makes little difference in the end.
Hopefully common sense will prevail (something I was afraid was absent round here today but the last two posts have reassured me that it isn’t! 😀 )
What do the unions have to say about trains doing 200km/h? Surely we’ll see more stoppages and the travelling public held to ransom because the lads want more dough for actually providing a 21st century service!?
@Angry Rebel wrote:
Yes. You see I’m willing to obtain facts instead of making them up. For June 2006
Mitchelstown 14k per day
New Inn 11k per day
Urlingford 12k per day
Abbeyleix 14k per daywhat proportion of these drivers need to use the road ?
Of course the road is busy when it is the only thing you invest in .
@Micko wrote:
Boyle, 2+1 isn’t good enough for Cork Dublin and recently has been shown that it will not even be good enough for the Cork to Galway western corridor.
… while the Dubs are getting motorways EVERYWHERE.
Same goes for the M50. the reason the M50 is blocked up is due to the poor usage of roundabouts in the M50’s interchanges. If the the road building authorities had any idea at all, the M50 would have been built with no roundabouts at its junctions.
Boyle, you also do realise that Irish Rail have announced that the Cork – Dublin trains will be travelling at 200k/h once all the track upgrades will be completed by around October ?
1Again the two+ one is not good enough because there is no alternative to the car.
2the dubs get motorways everywhere because a few hundred thousand people moved here and now 40 per cent of ireland lives here.
3.
4. is this is true the improvement will be nill as there are no direct services between dublin and cork (except a sunday)
No direct services?! Yes, now that you say it, I remember my train stopping in Castlebar the last time I went to Dublin from Cork……it was most inconvenient.
I like your blank answer to Mickos point no 3. Does this mean you agree with him?! Shocker.
@Angry Rebel wrote:
No direct services?! Yes, now that you say it, I remember my train stopping in Castlebar the last time I went to Dublin from Cork……it was most inconvenient.
I like your blank answer to Mickos point no 3. Does this mean you agree with him?! Shocker.
Could you point to a direct non stop service from dublin to cork ? here is the timetable http://www.iarnrodeireann.ie/your_journey/printed_timetable_pdfs/2006/dublincork.pdf
point no 3 i am trying to find the environmental impact statement.
I don’t think there can be any argument on building a DC between Cork & Dublin if the traffic flows are currently 11000 at Cahirp.a. and 15,000 plus close to Portlaoise they will be close to 20,000 per day within 10 years.
I do however feel that the rationale for the N9 and M3 are crocks in comparison
Turnapin is motorway
You didn’t say anything about nonstop? I’m sure if they can manage to bring in 200km/h trains they can manage to do nonstop services. Are you saying that timetable is the one that will apply then? Go away.:p
The 100,000 odd poor buggers who sit in the M50 car park every day don’t give a toss what the EIS said back in the day when that ill conceived thing was designed and built. Look, they got it wrong, and are only now trying to fix it. but don’t try and hold it up as an example of why motorways are “bad”.
On the M3, there are currently 18k per day using the N3 by Tara. That’s heavy enough. Agree the N9 now would be another story….
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