Convention centre

I have a half hunch that the scheme is going to be thrown out. reading the newspapers, the anti-development side seem to have good expert witnesses and their homework done. I reckon Dermot Desmond will tilt the balance in their favour.

See that the Waterfront Hall in Belfast has been awarded for being one of the best conferences centres in Europe, if not the world. We down south still lack a National Conference Centre. Foot dragging by governments have made us miss out. Like the National Stadium debacle this has gone on long enough. How about they commit themselves and have this much needed thing built. Spencer Dock has to be favourite for Kevin Roche’s proposal.

Originally posted by dc3
The City government in Prague is trying to sell their convention centre, which was expensively rebuilt with borrowed money a few years back, as it is losing huge amounts of money annually.

No if you were an American conventioneer which would you chose Prague and cheap beer or Dublin and dear beer, which would you pick?

Dublin because most bosses would never pay for their staff to go on a piss up, conventions are a serious business. I like the idea of city west it is very handy coming in from where I’m from.

Originally posted by PVC King

Dublin because most bosses would never pay for their staff to go on a piss up, conventions are a serious business.

I never thought I’d agree with anyone called PVC King but you are right, Convention centres are a serious business that generate a huge spin-off tourist industry beyond that diectly attributable to the conventions.

Frankfurt is the best example of this with the World Famous Book Fair and Auto Show headlining the many conventions held there annually. The Citizens loved them because pub opening hours were extended by 2 hours within the tourist area Sachsenhausen which would be directly comparable to Temple Bar.

Originally posted by PVC King I like the idea of city west it is very handy coming in from where I’m from.

It might be a great location for those en route from Inchedony to Ard Fheis, but conference centres are generally for International Conventions so a City Centre location would be preferable.

I entirely agree with GregF Kevin Roches tribute to the gasometer must be the front runner, along with the National Stadium I would like to add a realistic commuter transport system to the list of things that have been dithered by Mary O’Rourke and her successors in title.

If the government allowed Mansfields City West Hotel to become the National Showcase it really would send out all the wrong signals.

Those who have been following the Conference Centre deliberations (article in todays paper attached) they will know that citywest is not shortlisted as a possible site for the National Conference Centre. Spencer Dock is shortlisted but as previously mentioned in this thread – the design is awful, it is surrounded by apartments and offices, it is not on the waterfront.
Another group has a submission in for the racetrack in Leapordstown which one would only have to fondly remember the Baileys Icon to judge. (Those empty golden buses shooting up the Stillorgan Dual Carriageway!) The remaining submission which I personally prefer is down beside the Point Depot, has large surrounding space for ancillary non-commercial development (national theatre, national stadium, national welly throwing arena), has the C1 Luas extension to the door, footbridges etc. to the southside, Port Tunnel to the airport and beyond and Dublin Port for cruise ships and passenger ferries.

Whether one will actually be built this time (I stand to be corrected but have not Treasury won this competition twice before?) or a decision reached before 2006 remains to be seen but Dublin would be the preferred destination of hundreds of well heeled groups of conferencees for whom the destination city is just as important as the actual talks.

Minister blames red tape for delayed conference centre plan
Arthur Beesley, Political Reporter
26/10/2004

The Government will be unable to select a group to build the national conference centre until late next summer at the earliest due to “tortuous” red tape in the Department of Finance, the Minister for Tourism has indicated.

Mr O’Donoghue wanted a preferred bidder chosen before Christmas, but he has conceded that the deadline will not be met because of the bureaucracy involved in the public-private partnership funding model being used by the Government.

In remarks to the Dáil last week that were not reported at the time, the Minister said the process should be changed.

“As far as my experience goes, it is tortuous in the extreme,” he said. “It is tortuous for the officials involved, the Minister and those who are interested in becoming involved in construction. I hope that one of these days someone will see sense and change the guidelines governing this process. I have rarely come across as much red tape or bureaucracy in all my days travelling.”

The groups shortlisted last July by the Government are said to be frustrated at the delays in the process, which was initiated last January. Those on the list include the long-time bidder Treasury Holdings, which wants to build the centre at Spencer Dock in central Dublin.

The Anna Livia Consortium, led by Bennett Construction, wants to build the centre at a site owned by the Dublin Docklands Development Authority near the Point Theatre. The group involving the construction firm Michael McNamara and the Leopardstown Club Consortium wants to build it on land owned by Horse Racing Ireland adjacent to the Carrickmines end of the Leopardstown racecourse.

Mr O’Donoghue said in the Dáil that the public-private partnership was “necessarily complex” and was being carried out in accordance with interim guidelines developed by the Department of Finance.

The preparation of detailed project documentation was demanding and time-consuming.

While it would not be possible to select a preferred bidder before the end of the year, Mr O’Donoghue said the objective now was to to ensure that invitations to tender were issued to the three pre-qualified candidates before Christmas.

Originally posted by Thomond Park
Has anyone read the Bord Pleanala refusal from earlier this year. It is extremely clear “only a city centre site will be considered”

Irrelevant I fear. The South Dublin Council momentum to rezone City West is more or less unstoppable.

Once this happens Mansfield will proceed to complete his erection as a convention centre whether ABP likes it or not.

Thereafter, the pressure on the Government to co-fund anything else will be minimal. (Anyway Mansfield will probably be off to the EU Commission or European Court complaining about anti competitive State Aids or something if the Government incentivises or co-funds a city centre competitor)

I wish you were right. But unless there is an explicit government policy statement over-ruling random convention centres – which is not in place at the moment, the Board will have no veto over some thing like this.

Read the decision again. The basis of refusal was the contravention of zoning.

@Rockflanders wrote:

The target market will be very different in citywest. He really will not be a competitive threat to whichever one is built in the docklands. At least he doesnt have kevin Roche turning a sugar bowl on it’s side.

The cylendrical form of Roches design must be understood in the context of the ‘Dublin Gasometer’ that stood almost directly opposite the Spencer Dock site. It was taken down and the ground around it de-contaminated, in that regard it is a bold statement of the old merging into the new. Of all the proposals I have seen it is the only one with any originality. It certainly has to be a million times better than a second generation industrial building with a mock georgian facade.

It will in my opinion entirely undermine the viability of any subsequent conference centre as Mansfield will attempt to undercut any other market entrant as he will have the inferior product there would be no other market play.

The presence of another conference centre albiet warehouse specification will create enough market risk to drive most if not all potential market entrants. In essence leaving with us with a large warehouse to showcase Ireland to the world, which simply will not be capable of attracting the Regional i.e. European Level conferences needed to acheive the Tourism Ireland conference centre objectives

@Rockflanders wrote:

Do you mean the gasometer McNamara’s are building in? still standing last time I was there. Part of the National Conference Centre competition involves proposing an operator. I dont think any of the bidders find that a problem.

Thyat one remains it is part of the ‘Gasworks Scheme’ where Goolgle have their EMEA offices, the one I was talking about stood on the Corner of John Rogersons Quay and Cardiff Lane until about 10 years ago, it was much taller and was a stale shade of grey, but was a readily identifiable landmark from most parts of Dublin. It was so ugly that most people grew to accept it.

@Rockflanders wrote:

The Illinois association of Cardio Surgeons will only have their conference in Dublin if there is a city centre location so their partners can shop. The competition is for a national conference centre, let Mansfield have his amateur snooker tournaments and sausage making conventions, the ancillary and direct spend is at least 5 times lower.

I don’t agree even though I can see the merit in what you are saying, Property developers work on risk and reward and any conference centre is extremely high risk, but one where a competitor exists (particularly one that only has the ability to cut on price and would be doing so aggressively) in a market as small as Dublin would be beyond the risk profile bourne by virtually all Irish developers.

What there is no risk in building is an industrial building and calling it a conference centre, no-one would get planning for this proposal in the DCC area although a high spec conference centre would require a number of sausage conventions and snooker events to cover annual running costs. The Frankfurt Messe hosts about 100 events per year of which less than 20% are the type of conference it originally intended to host. It is an accepted fact that the Messe wouldn’t surviveif it were undercut for these secondary events by an industrial shed on the periphery. :confused: