college green/ o’connell street plaza and pedestrians
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We have to be careful here, too many pedestrianised streets can have an adverse effect on a city, streets were made for traffic, obviously we want heavy goods vehicles out of the city but that’s another story.
Shaun,
It has been stated by many observers that the O’Connell St plaza has been a total success in increasing commercial activity. It has also led to a situation where the footfall on The O’Connell St end of Henry St actually exceeds that of Grafton St.
All that is proposed is to extend the same principle to College Green and Dame St, therebye increasing the footfall there and to Streets such as Trinity St and Georges St.
As it stands people are choosing to shop in places such Blanchardstown and Quarry Vale where people can sit for hours on the wide open to all congested road that is the M50.
It is a City Centre we’re talking about
Originally posted by shaun
We have to be careful here, too many pedestrianised streets can have an adverse effect on a city, streets were made for traffic, obviously we want heavy goods vehicles out of the city but that’s another story.surely streets evolved as a way of moving pedestrian traffic originally not fellow travellers of the AA Roadwatch 😉
Less and restricted traffic is one thing, is this what is being proposed for the plaza because that sounds great, we just don’t want to turn our city centre’s into no-go zones for cars.
The streets of Dublin were made for traffic, as any in other town, but just let’s not do what they have done in Holland where most town centers are pedestrianised, and it just doesn’t work or feel right, it’s like walking around a theme park.
If only we could reduce the traffic on the quays, what a mess…..
I remember someone mentioning river taxis once and I thought it was a brilliant idea. Is there any reason why we can’t do it?
The streets of Dublin were made for traffic, as any in other town, but just let’s not do what they have done in Holland where most town centers are pedestrianised, and it just doesn’t work or feel right, it’s like walking around a theme park.
Yeah – wouldn’t it be awful not having to wait 180 seconds for the 15 second break you get to cross at College Green. Imagine how false it would be without having a HGV belching fumes into your face and wouldn’t it be simply awful having reduced pollution and dodging in and out of cars who stray onto pedestrian crossings when the lights are against them. And as for not getting nearly mowed down by cars that break red lights. Jesus what a hell on earth Dublin would become.
it’s probably come up here before but I’m new to this board .I reckon a major part of the unattractiveness of College green/st. & westmoreland st. is the ugly trees that obscure the neo- classical elevations, considering the hullabaloo over the O’Connel st. trees (glad to see them go)wil they ever be got rid of and return the area to its original hard landscaped styling?.whoever got the impression that Dick Gleeson forsees the area pedestianised from his interview in Ron Black’s I thought he was suggesting it couldn’t be done myself from what he said…
Tommyt, I must say I got the impression that he favoured it in principle, but knew that a huge amount of work needed to be done prior to it being thought about. The overall impression I got was that he reckoned it would eventually be done.
I think Dick Gleeson has to play it a lot cleverer than most, there are always a number of agendas within local authorities that one must approach with care.
I got the impression that he personally favours improving the pedestrian environment in College Green and that if he had the chance he would favour a total pedestrianisation.
There are four impediments to delivering a College Green Plaza.
1). The Trees in front of the BOI, anyone got a loan of a chainsaw? You have to see the bigger picture.
2). The Buses and futue possible Luas, Luas isn’t going to happen for a long while and if it does Fleet St/ Temple Bar would be perfect. The buses and Taxis could use Dame St/ College Green but simply not be permitted to allow passengers alight from there.
3). Disruption to businesses, the operation of both Henry St and Grafton St proves that goods can still be delivered.
4.) Disruption to traffic, thats why an inner orbital exists and when the Macken St Bridge is completed most of the North-South traffic will have an alternative route, and the Cuffe St- Christchurch- Phibsboro route can take pressure off as well.
The end definitely justifies the means on this one, but It will probably be a few years before it happens.
A few good preliminary measures would be to.
1). Move the College Green Taxi rank to the side of the Central Bank.
2). Eliminate as many bus-stops as possible and re-position them on the next Street out, such as Westmoreland St, Georges St, Lord Edward St.
3). Ban the right turn at Nicholas St to Christchurch Place
4). Ban the right turn on Bachelors walk to O’Connell BridgeI don’t personally see what the problem with the trees is. I am not going to give a whole “they should stay because they have been there for years rant”, because I know they havn’t. I think if the area was to be pedestrianised they would enhance the area. The area would feel very bare if it was just an expanse of hard landscaping for pedestrians.
Diaspora – as a northside to southside driver, I think you are jumping the gun on the Bachelor’s Walk to O’Connell Bridge right turn. Already, the other main option for us across the top of St Stephen’s Green has been removed. What would you suggest for people who have to drive that way? That they go along the NCR or along the Grand Canal – already two of the most congested roads in the city. Remember also that a lot of the right-turning traffic from the quays actually only goes down D’Olier Street and then turns left at the Screen – not going near Trinity or BoI.
kefu, as a driver-thru-the-city what do you think of the banning of the right turn from Patrick St/Nicholas St into Christchurch Place to private cars? We (A Taisce Dublin City) suggested this in our submission to the draft City Dev Plan, as a traffic-calming measure for Dame St/College Gn, on the basis that it would mirror the recent banning of prvate car passage from Pearse St into College St, restricting traffic from entering the College Gn/Dame St area from the opposite direction.
Or are all these ideas here on this thread for calming College Gn premature before the Macken St bridge? (hope not)
Re: The Macken Street bridge – it is essential but I think the only net gain will be slight relief at two chronic pinch points on Pearse Street going North and Matt Talbot Bridge going South. If everybody abandons the East Link to avoid the toll, traffic could even get worse as a result.
I would have very little problem with the Patrick St right turn into Christchurch being banned.
The only issue is that it would be sending even more traffic towards and on to the quays.
Also, the multi-storey car parks wouldn’t be too happy as it’s a point of access for Trinity Street, Brown Thomas etc and some drivers would circumvent the ban by going down to the quays, crossing Capel Street Bridge, going up Parliament Street and turning left on to Dame Street anyway.Originally posted by Devin
kefu, as a driver-thru-the-city what do you think of the banning of the right turn from Patrick St/Nicholas St into Christchurch Place to private cars? We (A Taisce Dublin City) suggested this in our submission to the draft City Dev Plan, as a traffic-calming measure for Dame St/College Gn, on the basis that it would mirror the recent banning of prvate car passage from Pearse St into College St, restricting traffic from entering the College Gn/Dame St area from the opposite direction.Or are all these ideas here on this thread for calming College Gn premature before the Macken St bridge? (hope not)
All the Pearse / college st ban did was create an infuriating half mile loop for those people needing to go up Dame street. In the process it made the left turn from Tara street to the quays a nightmare, clogged up D’Olier St or added to the general mayhem on Wellington Quay and Parliament Street.
I agree with Burge_Eye.
The problem with Dublin is that when you close off a turn or a road, there is always a way to circumvent it. That circumvention usually involves a tortuous route and inevitably leads to either more traffic on a road that can ill-afford it or rat run shortcuts.
From a driver’s perspective – Dublin has something akin to two extended pedestrianised squares miles, Henry Street and Grafton Street, with a handful of direct car routes like the North/South Quays, Pearse Street, Patrick Street, Church Street, Dorset Street, Amiens Street and so on running between and around them – all of these routes are completely congested already and any traffic alteration, no matter how minor, will only lead to more congestion.Kefu,
I don’t know why you turn right from Bachelors Walk to go South, the route of those who wish to avoid traffic has always been to continue along the Quays to Matt Talbot Bridge, turn right, turn left onto City Quay, Turn Right onto Lombard St East, left from Westland Row onto Fenian St before turning Right onto Merrion St with all Southside routes open from there minus the traffic.
Beyond my traffic advice there is a more important issue, i.e. what way is the transportation hierarchy tilted. In Dublin before now it has been tilted against those that spend money the pedestrian. The idea of improving pedestrian facilities within the very core of Dublin must come before facilitating commuters.
It is not going to seriously inconvenience anyone who seeks out new routes to work by combining what would seem like unorthidox routes. From my experience the major hold ups thus far are around Church St, the Northern Quays, Gardiner St, Pearse St North Strand and the Southern Canals and Morehampton Rd.
The new Macken St bridge will relieve Pearse St, Gardiner St and the North Strand.
Using Bridgefoot St & Francais St to the West eliminates the need to use Church St, the Northern Quays and Christchuch.
The delivery of a Quality Plaza will deliver more revenue to the CC than it will eliminate, it won’t suit everyone buts thats life.
I have no sympathy for anyone who turns right onto Tara St or breaks the rule going West from Pearse St, you obviously haven’t a clue how to get around this City.
Originally posted by Diaspora
Kefu,I don’t know why you turn right from Bachelors Walk to go South, the route of those who wish to avoid traffic has always been to continue along the Quays to Matt Talbot Bridge, turn right, turn left onto City Quay, Turn Right onto Lombard St East, left from Westland Row onto Fenian St before turning Right onto Merrion St with all Southside routes open from there minus the traffic.
I have no sympathy for anyone who turns right onto Tara St or breaks the rule going West from Pearse St, you obviously haven’t a clue how to get around this City.
Diaspora, you are obviously either a taxi driver, a cyclist or have a job that allows you to commute at 10am or 3pm. What is clear, from your recent diatribe on the “look at the state of cork” thread, is that you resort to cheap abuse whenever people don’t see things your way. I have a bicycle and I dice with death whenever possible but I live in Crumlin, work on Pearse St and have to go to site most days. I, therefore, spend a great deal of time driving around this city and I tell you what pal – I know the quickest way to get to work / get home.
I think this thread has turned into a Dublin A-Z simply because the whole idea of widening the footpath has been exhausted. Getting a better view of Trinity is obviously your cause celebre. Good luck.
Burg- eye
This thread turned into a Dublin A-Z because the usual Dublin Transport will grind to a halt argument was brought out again.
If I had a tenner for everytime I had heard people say this about a particular road change I would be richer than Bill Gates.
I can understand your train of thought on the change at Pearse St seeing as you work there, but Pearse St as an East-West route is under normal circumstances an absolute no brainer.
I salute your courage cycling in Dublin, I like the protection of an engine in front of me either rail or car.
The reality is that College Green is the Natural Centre of Dublin, it is a pedestrian environment that compares amongst the worst in Europe on a comparative basis. If Dublin is serious about having an extended retail core changing College Green is an absolute must to put the shoppers first.
Diaspora, anybody going Northside to Southside will rarely if ever drive as far as Matt Talbot Bridge because the traffic light there allows about four cars through on each turn.
That means if there are even twenty cars there, which there normally are – you will have a six or seven minute wait.To return to the subject, I think College Green should be effectively pedestrianised and all but taxis, buses and car park traffic banned a-la St Stephen’s Green East. Traffic will be slowed but it is hard to imagine it going any slower.
Banning traffic from turning right onto O’Connell Bridge and then funnelling down Townsend Street does not, however, contribute to reducing traffic flow on College Green.
From a personal point of view, it would make my particular drive in the morning from Stoneybatter to Ballsbridge, which I used to go via Stephen’s Green for, an even bigger nightmare.
And please don’t offer me any more route advice, I know practically every single road and shortcut in the north and south city.Originally posted by burge_eye
All the Pearse / college st ban did was create an infuriating half mile loop for those people needing to go up Dame street. In the process it made the left turn from Tara street to the quays a nightmare, clogged up D’Olier St or added to the general mayhem on Wellington Quay and Parliament Street.
Well it’s a pity poor burgeye can’t drive from Pearse Street straight into College Green anymore!
It goes without saying that when you close one route it increases congestion somewhere else. The idea of the above banning is that the overall volume of traffic going from Pearse Street to Dame Street is reduced, cos its more hassle to do it than it used to be.
The whole aim of these bannings is to make people ask if their car route needs to be going through the centre city or, preferably, if they could be using public transport or cycling instead. 30% of urban car journeys are under 3 kilometers. There’s a lot of laziness in Dublin, a lot of people driving into town from Sandymount, Harolds X and Drumcondra, just because they have a work car space or can park in a multi-storey car park. These are the people the restrictions and bannings are aimed at.
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