college green/ o’connell street plaza and pedestrians

@ctesiphon wrote:

Not just that, has anyone actually taken the Red Line recently? The entire city centre corridor until Heuston seems more blighted than reinvigorated.

Without an actual plan designed to capitalise on the potential opportunities brought about by the introduction of a Luas corridor to a city centre route, the latent regeneration benefits will not materialise and will accrue elsewhere. The market seems to be saying as much, at any rate. No?

@Peter Fitz wrote:

Yes surprisingly litle has happened with this stretch since the introduction of luas & not much in the pipeline either it seems.

I think the reason for this is that the route chozen is a series of back streets which had bugger all commercial development on them before Luas, and now, because of the narrowness of the carriageways, they have more the characteristics of a railway cutting than primary arterial public transportation corridors, or whatever the phrase is.

Every other city: The trams go down the main busy commercial arterial routes, I’m not wrong about this. Trams everywhere have horns that blast you out of it when you’re trying to get a good photograph of something else, it goes with the territory, wasn’t Gaudi killed by a tram?

what about Stephansplatz in Vienna and Graben

the full pedestrianization of College green does have potential with the option of controlled access!!!
And it is desirable… I would prefer cars have access at odd hours rather than luas ect
also makes me think of christshurch its a big shame about the interconnector…
no time for some archeology…
The Luas will wreck havok if you go straight down the middle to
spilt the square if you go on the sides the turning circles and paving is messy
The problem with the luas is its too big just like the buses…
It’s what a 100/200 metre walk to the metro station… small fry

http://www.flickr.com/photos/houben/206325350/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tm_boris/1192233462/sizes/l/

sunny dub you need to analysis the potential of the spaces before you go plocking luas everywhere

back streets are no place for a luas… you need a population/width/ and mini luas which we don’t have

yes gaudi was struck Oculus

I see Munich’s Marienplatz mentioned on this thread in relation to the pluses and minuses of the use of College Green for public transport.

It’s important to remember that the location is fully pedestrianised, with not a bus or tram in sight – hardly any buses enter Munich’s city centre, while most of the city’s trams are only a few hundred metres distant (e.g. at Karlsplatz), but not in the Marienplatz itself.

However, the square retains a very, very serious public transport function through the important interchange which lies beneath it. These include S-Bahn services (7 lines) to around 140 destinations and U-Bahn services (2 lines) to approximately another 40.

If the plans for underground lines in Dublin are to go ahead – and it may still be an “if”, though I hope not – I think this is the kind of thing which should be envisaged for Dublin: reclamation of a great urban space while facilitating public transport rather than hindering it.

The is one (but just one) of the reasons why I favour a close look at College Green/Dame Street as the location of Martin Cullen’s “Grand Central”. The current alternative – i.e. a St. Stephen’s Green which will take many years to recover and a College Green which is still snarled with buses and will not even have a metro station, just doesn’t seem to have the same number of positives.

gunter…

even if we don’t have grand central here its a 150m transfer big deal…
We also have the bus on the quays going east west we also have the red line and we will also have the interconnecter plus we can have a bus route past the tourist office towards merrion is that not enough???

anyway this is what im thinking right now when things are really dead cars cannot go on dark grey
there could be a single luas track east west for the grave yard shifts

Was parking in Trinity Street yesterday and rather curiously there was a member of staff doing a survey of all customers asking them from what direction they were coming.
It would suggest to me that the multi-storey car parks are trying to determine where there business is coming from in the event of pedestrianisation.
There are quite a few such facilities, which would be affected although I can’t see any of them going out of business: Fleet Street, Trinity Street, Brown Thomas, Drury Street etc.

i found these if you haven’t not seen them

Just to return to the buses briefly, there are too many buses in College Green as it stands, regardless if the LUAS is on it’s way there too.

It would be an interesting project to ascertain the frequency and loadings of the existing cross city buses, in particular relating to the boarding / alighting at each city centre bus stop for each route. I am absolutely convinced of the sheer inefficiency of the existing city network, regardless of any plans to eliminate some buses. Buses dwell far too long at bus stops, take far too long to traverse the city centre, and cause congestion no moreso than to themselves, with buses queuing for access to hopelessly inadequate stops, disgorging passengers onto the roadway, and blocking two lanes of some streets. There must be a huge loss of business to buses simply through the sheer amount of time lost and disruption to potential customers, not to mention the excess of vehicles needed to cover the fact that too many buses sit stationary for too long in the resultant traffic jams.

Buses arriving into the city to terminate a journey, should turn around, load up quickly at an adequately designed and efficient loading place, and get the hell out of the city as quick as possible. Buses crossing the city should have a minimum of bus stops, and spend no longer than absolutely necessary to load and unload, using two or three exit doors, with no delay allowed at all for fare collection. Bus operators, of any company, should be penalised for holding up traffic for revenue collection purposes.

The older Dublin Bus fleet of step entrance buses, which are now obsolete, and being replaced over a period of a few years, were ideal for cross city work, with two access doors, and a shorter length and wheelbase for greater manoeuvreability. Admittedly they have no wheelchair access, but replacement vehicles should be of short length, with wheelchair access and two doors, similar to the London model.

The later style of bus, from 2000 onwards, has wheelchair access, but only one entrance / exit door. These buses, with their higher seating capacity but slower access, are more suited to the main express corridors out of the city, and not on cross city routes with a high passenger turnover on the city centre streets.

Three axle double deckers as found on the 46A route, are again suitable for express routes out of the city, but not for cross city work. There is no place for articulated buses, as London has found to it’s cost.

With those basic facts taken on board, five types of bus route can be visualised, with different vehicle types sourced for each particular type of work.

1) Cross city routes, like route 10, which require a bus with multiple access doors, short length, on a minimum of chosen routes. There are too many cross city routes at present. There needs to be less routes, and diverted to use streets such as Capel Street, Jervis Street, Gardiner Street, away from the College Green bottleneck. There are a number of options to do this.

2) High capacity express routes out of the city, like 46A, which should have one specified main loading point, and perhaps just one or two other points within the canal cordon, and which should load instantly and leave the city promptly, with no laying over in the city centre.

3) Local services outside the city, and outside the scope of this thread.

4) Dublin City guided tours, which I feel do need limited access to the O’Connell Street / College Green area. These buses should be permitted to traverse the city centre slowly, on tour, but should be precluded from parking on the streetside, or basing themselves there to sell tickets. Limited stopping would be provided, for loading / alighting only, perhaps on Nassau Street, or D’Olier Street, which would see all the other bus services removed.

5) I would like to see a kind of sponsored mobility service retained in O’Connell Street, perhaps operated by electric single deck standee buses, with minimal seating, which would not be so intrusive to the city infrastructure, and could provide in their own right a talking point for the city, green electric buses, putting Dublin to the forefront in investigating progressive ways of moving people. These buses would work entirely within the canal cordon, and would provide a link to the other bus routes removed from O’Connell Street / College Green, and indeed the railway stations. It would be nice if these buses were free of charge to use, or else worked on some kind of ‘Oyster’ card system. I know we don’t like doing ‘freebies’ in Dublin, but there are other ways of doing business and getting the city moving besides always grasping for the greasy coins!

I see areas like Parnell Square, one side of St. Stephen’s Green, Lower Merrion Street, and parts of the Quays as being suitable hubs for the buses. Streets like Lower Merrion Street and Parnell Square given over exclusively to buses, with the buses nose to kerb at a 45 degree angle, allowing for a three or fourfold increase in bus stop capacity. Buses would reverse out under the eye of a stance inspector. These bus stop hubs would be managed day and night by independent bus inspectors employed by the DTA, and would serve as interchanges between routes, as well as keeping buses away from having to stop on other more congested streets. Buses serving these stops would have limited stops elsewhere, and would wait only for a specified departure time, or the word of a stance inspector. There would be no parking of buses, and no delays due to archaic revenue collection methods.

Perhaps it is time for Dublin City Council to consider charging bus operators for access to the city, based on time spent inside the canal cordon, and use of stopping facilities. In return, the council would be obliged to provide much more efficient priority for buses, and adequate consideration and assistance with proper loading and alighting facilities. I would see somewhere like Summerhill Garage or Donnybrook Garage given over in part towards an open bus facility for service buses and for private and touring coaches, with maintenance, washing, canteen, sleeping for drivers, etc. All charged on a reasonable basis, providing much needed facilities for coach drivers in particular, and getting buses and coaches off the side of the street.

I see buses moving swiftly around the city, making less stops, stopping to load and unload, preferably using more doors, and not waiting for inefficient fare collection methods. Given that huge move towards greater efficiency, I see bus operators being rewarded with far more priority at junctions, enabling those buses to get out of the city quicker, which is the whole point of the exercise. Quicker buses equals less buses. Operators too, would save by requiring far less vehicles to cover schedules than they presently do, with greater availability of vehicles for greater capacity.

It’s a win win situation all round, and frees up the city centre environment for more pedestrianisation and more efficient throughput of people.

@SunnyDub wrote:

I fear your College Green Platz idea is hopefully unrealistic, at least in the short-term, I think it’s more Picadilly Circus than a quiet pedestrian zone.

I’m well aware that full pedestrianisation of College Green is not on the horizon, and have posted in that vein since the start, the point is there is no urban design framework for the space & there bloody well should be. Its current state is not acceptable. Agencies like the RPA scribble lines through CG without any regard for its potential, while DCC sit on their hands. Running two luas lines through CG will impact heavily on the space & cannot be undone whenever the CC do finally get up off their arse & decide CG is worth doing something about.

@ctesiphon wrote:

As far as I recall, there is a carriageway (i.e. lower than the paved surface, with a kerb) at the east end of Marienplatz on which buses run. Admittedly, it’s at a snail’s pace, but they’re there.

There is indeed, right down at the east end, as you say. You can see it here – on the left of the photo. I’d forgotten about that:o

Apparently, two bus routes do still run along this carriageway. I’m guessing here, but with so many pedestrianised streets in the vicinity, it’s possible that it is needed in any case, for ambulance/fire brigade access.

I find it funny this desire to remove private cars from College Green and using it as maybe just for public transport. I get the (evil 39) bus all the time to my college Trinity and waiting there you see that the vast majority of traffic on College Green is by Dublin bus.

Just thinking about that I am always struck by how wide Westmoreland Street and D’Olier Street are even in comparison to College Green and I think that that should be taken fully into account in any major plans for College Green and maybe try and utilize these streets more in some form of traffic management.

Oh I dont know….