college green/ o’connell street plaza and pedestrians
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@missarchi wrote:
. . it comes down on how wet you wanna get and the metro route south of the green and other future rail options…
There’s a very big troll and he lives behind a very big door and he gets very annoyed if he hears nonsense.
I just think you should know this.@gunter wrote:
I don’t know which routes you’re suggesting, I can’t find good alternative routes, that’s the problem. Bearing in mind that if you pick a route that has a high loading of traffic, including bus traffic, already on it, like the Quays for example, the bulk of this displaced traffic will have to be accommodated on an alternative route and one travelling in much the same direction.
Perhaps ‘multiple alternatives’ was overstating it, but there are alternatives.
The nonsense that is BX should run around the back of Trinity, as discussed at length before. If DCC insist on giving us this Hawkins Street bridge within pissing distance of O’Connell bridge, at the very least it should be used to accommodate bx, which should then run up marlborough & spare OCS itself.
As for line F, I can see no logic whatsoever in running it down Dame St, once it serves Lucan Village, Liffey Valley, Ballyfermot, Inchicore & Kilmainham, surely it should utilise the red line from Heuston, providing a direct link from West Dublin to OCS, IFSC, NCC & Point.
Instead the RPA propose another batch of An Larism by terminating it at Trinity – how exactly are they proposing to facilitate a turn back ?
@gunter wrote:
I’m already not comfortable with the existing Luas trams avoiding thoroughfares in favour of going down narrow side streets like Benburb street, it just doesn’t feel right.
Thats where we differ, I feel luas should utilise side streets, for its own benefit. Luas functions much better where it is properly segregated with dediated road space, it is forced to travel at painfully slow speeds in the few instances where it has to share road space under the current set up.
Clearly the RPA are intent on making their mark on every major artery in this city, their proposed route options map for line F is hilarious.
point taken…
line F should stop before starbucks coming from the west
line BX should go round rotunda hospital back down the con
past the private response trophy bargaining board and gas do a triangle past the westin facing south & back upwell I always thought the luas should be seperated entirely from road traffic and should have right of way at road junctions. having line F terminate on Dame Street is a mistake it would be better if it continued down College street and connected with both Dart lines at Pearse and possibly continue into the south docks.
Missaarchi, what do you have against crayons?where would you draw the line??
just one idea of many we reuse the railings but trim down the height or the trim the stone upstand…
You’ve kept the grass, but you’ve put in a moat and a drawbridge?
This is because I told you about the Troll, right?
You see, this is what is so frustrating about this city – the RPA are given free rein to carve up the city centre according to their lines on a map and notional nodal hubs and what have you, with external regard limited solely to the competing aims of Dublin Bus and other traffic. What about the requirements of the built environment and the special character of the city’s main thoroughfares? Is this not a further major element worthy of consideration? Is this not as important, if not indeed more important, as a long term and unchangeable constant, than the flexible operational needs of competing transport modes? I find a parallel with the billboards debacle – the city authorities, the guardians of the city, are willing to allow the very essence of what is recognisably Dublin, what forms the image and character of the city in the mind of its people and visitors – i.e. its main streets and spaces – to effectively be handed over to another authority with no urban design planning background, to play with at will in a manner not unlike passing them a giant box of Duplo bricks and a few base boards and telling them: “here you go, make us proud”. Only in this case the miniature town has already been built, and they’re being allowed at it with a giant bale of Chinese granite, a mountain of silver poles and 20 kilometres of suspended cabling.
This has been the nub of the issue for me from day one as regards passing Luas through College Green, Westmoreland Street, O’Connell Bridge and along O’Connell Street, and apologies for reiterating it at length, but sometimes you do wonder if you’re going ever so slightly cracked rather than the authorities being the ones beating the wrong drum – the scoffing attitude of some of the staff of the RPA towards such prissy issues as dignified public space, uninterrupted views and vistas, and coherent and sensitively designed thoroughfares merely contributing to this snowballing popular opinion that Luas = wholesome goodness. Rather than DCC leading the way on this with a set and determined vision for the historic core of the city, they’ll shortly be running around cleaning up the mess and dusting around the edges of the trail of Urbanism by Engineer the RPA has left in its wake.
Very simply, any ambitious plans for the College Green, College Street and indeed O’Connell Bridge centres will be turned to watered-down dishwater should these spaces be subject to the extent of cabling, poles, platforms and all other attendant paraphernalia that the Luas travels with. It is utterly inexcusable on College Green, offensive crossing the Liffey and O’Connell Street, and at best highly undesirable along the other major thoroughfares. One need only look at the disaster of Middle Abbey Street to observe what is in store for the coherence of Westmoreland Street. And what’s more, I suspect this entire issue will only rear its head in typical Irish planning Taraesque style, once the project has begun (if ever). Now is the time to make these critical decisions.
@gunter wrote:
You’ve kept the grass, but you’ve put in a moat and a drawbridge?
Am I the only one who can picture the Provost looking at that image and thinking to himself that they may finally have a solution to the pesky Fenian public?
what I find sicking graham is they put up 100,000 euro for a FKN bridge why can’t they put up 500,000 in prizes for college green so many competitions in Ireland are for insignificant spaces… and a million for the green its peanuts in the scheme of things that interchange is worth around .5 billion
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/first-look-at-the-model-metro-1372877.html
I had a chat with the chief architect from the RPA he seems like a nice guy but I’m guessing he has been in a pressure cooker being pulled in every which way.
And he said the 15km Al Safooh light rail system will be the first in the world to have no overhead wires. Instead a “third rail” — or power supply built into the track bed — will be used to minimise the visual effect.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/first-look-at-the-model-metro-1372877.htmlI predict a riot!
@GrahamH wrote:
You see, this is what is so frustrating about this city – the RPA are given free rein to carve up the city centre according to their lines on a map and notional nodal hubs and what have you, with external regard limited solely to the competing aims of Dublin Bus and other traffic. What about the requirements of the built environment and the special character of the city’s main thoroughfares? Is this not a further major element worthy of consideration? Is this not as important,.
Irrelevant factors this is the annointed RPA zone where heritage is 1990’s fad and Dublin Bus the competition.
@GrahamH wrote:
Very simply, any ambitious plans for the College Green, College Street and indeed O’Connell Bridge centres will be turned to watered-down dishwater should these spaces be subject to the extent of cabling, poles, platforms and all other attendant paraphernalia that the Luas travels with. It is utterly inexcusable on College Green, offensive crossing the Liffey and O’Connell Street, and at best highly undesirable along the other major thoroughfares. One need only look at the disaster of Middle Abbey Street to observe what is in store for the coherence of Westmoreland Street. And what’s more, I suspect this entire issue will only rear its head in typical Irish planning Taraesque style, once the project has begun (if ever). Now is the time to make these critical decisions.
@missarchi wrote:
And he (the chief architect from the RPA) said the 15km Al Safooh light rail system will be the first in the world to have no overhead wires. Instead a “third rail” — or power supply built into the track bed — will be used to minimise the visual effect.
I got a sneak look at a document entitled ‘Draft Dublin City Council’s Submission to the RPA, on Luas Line F’ and in it, there are some grounds for hope.
Of Dame St. / College Green it says:
Within Dame Street / College Green the Heritage Officer of DCC must be consulted on the status and remaking of College Green as a ‘Civic Space’ and a Civic Space Framework Plan should be prepared by the RPA in conjunction with DCC. As Trinity Street will in future be the last point of access to this area for general traffic, other than public transport, it is recommended that the last stop for Line F be located just west of the Foster Place South/Church Lane junction (with an emergency turn back point for cars). Beyond that point an engineering link only to the Luas line BX track would be feasible.’OK, one paragraph in a draft submission may not herald the new dawn, but the encouraging thing is that at least DCC are conscious of the ‘Civic Space’ issues and they seem to be pro-actively engaged with the RPA this time, whereas they seemed to stand aloof from the whole Luas planning thing, the last time round.
On missarchi’s point, we have been hearing about this ‘third rail’ solution for some time now and it does appear to be the answer to the over-head clutter concern.
Like cgcsb, It seems improbable to me that Line F won’t end up being extended eastward to the south docks, or Poolbeg ultimately, and it would seem insane, but hardly unprecedented, to be planning College Green as a tram cul-de-sac.
@GrahamH wrote:
You see, this is what is so frustrating about this city –]
Could not agree with you more Graham.
@gunter wrote:
Like cgcsb, It seems improbable to me that Line F won’t end up being extended eastward to the south docks, or Poolbeg ultimately, and it would seem insane, but hardly unprecedented, to be planning College Green as a tram cul-de-sac.
Even contemplating a second east west alignment to the docks, less than 5 minutes walk from that currently under construction is a nonsense.
@gunter wrote:
Within Dame Street / College Green the Heritage Officer of DCC must be consulted on the status and remaking of College Green as a ‘Civic Space’ and a Civic Space Framework Plan should be prepared by the RPA in conjunction with DCC. As Trinity Street will in future be the last point of access to this area for general traffic, other than public transport, it is recommended that the last stop for Line F be located just west of the Foster Place South/Church Lane junction (with an emergency turn back point for cars). Beyond that point an engineering link only to the Luas line BX track would be feasible.’
Good to hear that they are on some level conscious of the obvious sensitivities at CG.
Missarchi did you photoshop that tricolor in there ?
It’s a start but its sad a civic framework plan would be prepared by the RPA…
It does no justice to the site st stephens green and all the other metro stations only go to prove this…
There is no detail and no passion no culture…
They have no grasp of the context however if the stop is made where suggested and does not continue it will be a very small start… I know the RPA are trying to keep things generic but with a PPP I would wonder what the results might be…I would ask that the plans go on public display for 6 weeks by that time I will have another proposal…
the tricolor is no photoshop…
I personally don’t think there’s much of a visual clutter problem from the overhead wires, I don’t really notice them on Abbey St or Harcourt St, for example. They were in College Green before the old trams were taken out. I don’t think all the overhead wires in Vienna do much harm either.
I think Luas can be used to improve the public realm and calm streets generally, it shouldn’t go down back streets as there’s not much of a speed advantage (e.g. red line) and it then loses its civilising force and presence, on-street trams will always be slowish and that’s just a reality.
I suspect that the public realm situation for College Green is going to be addressed once cars are banned from the area although maybe the RPA will have too much of a say, we’ll see, as a start they could widen the footpaths including along lower Grafton Street.
@SunnyDub wrote:
I think Luas can be used to improve the public realm and calm streets generally, it shouldn’t go down back streets
Fully agree with that.
I imagine that full pedestrianisation of College Green is not achievable. There’s also an argument that it’s not actually desirable. It’s a fluid space, like a miniature Trafalgar Square, rather than a cosy enclosed space like Marienplatz in Munich.
If they put in Luas Line F to a cul-de-sac stop at the west end of College Green, within weeks there’ll be a clamour to ‘join it up’ with BX, or extend it to the east. Would it not be better to accept the reality of this and design in expansion from the start?
In no way should this be left to the RPA, a tram network is a civic enterprise not just a transportation system.
A future College Green that is 80% pedestrian and 20% tram line, would be a hell of an improvement on the existing status (30% pedestrian? 70% road surface?)
Interestingly Bordeaux with its third rail system offers an example not just of building a light rail system in a historic core with out the visual clutter of wires, but also of the civilising effect of trams on major civic areas. A visit to the city should be top of the list of priorities for any planners of Lines BX and F.
Isn’t Bordeaux where the RIAI annual conference is to be held this year. There should be a flood of good photographs coming back in the next month or so.
@gunter wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunnyDubI think Luas can be used to improve the public realm and calm streets generally, it shouldn’t go down back streets
Fully agree with that.
Given that Luas can rarely cross O’Connell Street without using its siren like horn, i do not get how it can be described as a calming influence.
Pedestrian traffic through College Green is at least as substantial as the Abbey / OCS junction, if not more so.
@Peter Fitz wrote:
Given that Luas can rarely cross O’Connell Street without using its siren like horn, i do not get how it can be described as a calming influence.
Not just that, has anyone actually taken the Red Line recently? The entire city centre corridor until Heuston seems more blighted than reinvigorated.
Without an actual plan designed to capitalise on the potential opportunities brought about by the introduction of a Luas corridor to a city centre route, the latent regeneration benefits will not materialise and will accrue elsewhere. The market seems to be saying as much, at any rate. No?
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