college green/ o’connell street plaza and pedestrians

I didn’t mean any offence, I just ment to express my opinion that public transport is important to the area and it sould be maintained and it would incentivise people to use public transport if it could go to places that the private car can’t

Graham: I’ll try and come back to this in more datail later, but I just want to clarify the point that I’ve been trying to make about the Trinity railings and front lawns.

The current railings are magnificent, there’s no question about that and together with the lawns they create an oasis of calm which is much loved my lots of people, including legions of Dubliners who’ve waited here to meet their dates, in the era before mobile phones. Although, why we can’t just have our transition to an oasis of calm, 10m further on, when we go through the archway is beyond me.

If you say that the previous railings (the ones we see in the Malton print) were erected by 1761, I’ll accept that too.

I also accept that the an enclosure at the front of Trinity existed before then. The half hexagonal enclosure we see on Brooking’s map of 1728 proves that the old front of Trinity was also, for a time, protected from the rough and tumble of the city by a railing enclosure. Brooking’s accompanying print shows this half wall / half railings in all it’s artless horrow.

Sorry for the image quality, my copy of Brooking’s map is tiny. The copy that used to hang on the half landing in the Civic Museum in South William Street, has obviously gone into storage somewhere.

Sorry, another bad quality image of the old front of Trinity, shown here above an elevation of the Library, again from Brooking’s map of 1728.

My point is that at some point between 1728 and 1756, an extraordinary thing happened, something which would never happen today. The college authorities, possibly in tandem with city officials, threw down their defensive railings and briefly embraced the notion that Trinity constituted one edge of an emerging urban space, and one of some magnificence. My guess is that this happened about 1735 or so, when the new parliament house had been completed and College Green had assumed the role of the central civic space of the expanding city and, arguably, the nation (in whatever form that was perceived to be).

Whether, and for how long, the ground floor windows of the new west front were exposed to the grand civic space of College Green (as depicted on Rocque’s map) without the protection of a forward railing enclosure is a matter for speculation. I would point out, at this juncture, that the standard (Europe wide) solution to exposed ground floor windows, since Renaissance times if not earlier, has been simply to design in hefty iron grills.

An example from Rome, can’t remember which palazzo.

I fully accept that there are plenty of other things wrong with College Green, as you have clearly identified, but I don’t think that it would do us any harm to include an appraisal of the existing railings and lawns in any future urban review of College Green, (not that there’s ever likeky to be an urban review of College Green, or anywhere else in Dublin).

Btw and at the risk of stirring the hornet’s nest again, your triangular urban space / traffic island opposite the Lord’s portico, would make a great square urban space, if we just got rid of the . . . .

cqcsb:absolutely no offence taken; sometimes the big idea just needs to swamp the practicalities!

@johnglas wrote:

I’m not saying there aren’t any, but it is striking how there is no one civic space that could be called the ‘centre’ of Dublin. If you want a big political demonstration, where would you go?

The fact that College Green is the only space in this city that can adequately fill that role, makes its current state all the more depressing. This confluence of streets is the obvious heart of Dublin.

Given its relatively tight proportions compared to a typical european piazza, I absolutely disagree with the notion that any future piazza style space could be successfully coupled with some sort of public transport hub, with two luas lines & a fleet of buses hurtling through. It does however seem like an obvious location for a metro station.

Luas, great and all as it is, can impact negatively on our finer civic spaces, becoming the focus of a street, while obviously having potential to greatly enhance a substandard urban environment & kick start regeneration.

If ever CG is to be adequately transformed, full pedestrianisation is essential. In the context of the overall space available, the impact of removing the trinity railings would be relativey minor set against the positive impact removal of the boi railings would afford the green. For what its worth, I wouldn’t be too precious about the railings, as fine as they are, & would consider removal as part of a reworking of the entire space.

It seems like the state of College Green has been an active topic on archiseek since its inception, what a shame that a landscape masterplan doesn’t even seem to be on the distant horizon.

@gunter wrote:

All the more reason perhaps to explore the Lord’s portico end of College Street as a civic square with greater pedestrian floor area, as a complementary space to the main civic space at College Green. A series of inter-linked squares is quite a common civic pattern at the core of other European cities (Bremen comes to mind) and can be more engaging that just the great militaristic central square, to use Graham’s illuminating imagery.

Agreed, the space in front of the east portico is quite substantial, and could make for a fine ‘waiting room’, it deserves a little more than trees & toilets :rolleyes:

@gunter wrote:

Sorry for butchering your post

not a drip of blood in sight 😀

Someone once said that the reason Dublin City Council don’t give Dublin Bus any more bus stop space, is that when they do, Dublin Bus park more buses in it!

The present bus network is to a large extent, the same network that was present when horse trams ran to the Pillar in the late 1800s. The trams over the years were electrified, numbered, and eventually replaced by buses. Those buses were replaced by more buses, and more over time, but the routes, while extended interminably at their outer ends, have maintained their Pillar centred network for 126 years now, since the replacement of Carlisle Bridge.

The bus network needs to change from a CITY based network, to a regional based network. With new depots like Harristown, and Grange Castle on the way, buses need to be based OUT of the city, at these new depots, and work into and out of the city, instead of out of and then back in, as is presently the case. The typical Dublin Bus driver’s roster today involves a number ‘laps’ on a route, leaving the city, coming back in, and parking up, either for a break, or for a change of crew. The city centre streets are the ‘depot’ for these breaks, with parked buses everywhere. These buses cause congestion, in no greater case than to the company’s own buses!

If those buses were based outside of the city, working rosters would start and finish at the outer ends, with buses entering the city, turning round and heading straight back out. No parking, and no city centre breaks or crew changes. This can still work with the present city depots. Routes like the busy 46A should not be operated from Donnybrook, but rather, to the depot nearest the end of the route, Phibsboro. Routes like that would terminate in and operate from the home depot, rather than the city streets. This is happening now with the Tallaght routes, which have been removed from Eden Quay, and now operate to Ringsend Garage.

The next thing is to create a ring around the city, within which cars and buses and general traffic do not encroach, except for loading purposes within strictly enforced early morning hours. I see a couple of bus ‘corridors’ away from O’Connell Street. These would include the north and south Quays, Capel Street / Jervis Street, Marlborough Street / Gardiner Street, and Seville Place to Macken Street over the proposed new bridge.

You cannot simply ‘lift’ all the buses from O’Connell Street and share them out among the other streets. It takes a huge survey to decide which routes to turn short, and which to maintain as cross city routes. One enormously important issue is the dwell time of buses at bus stops. It is unfathomable how, in this modern day and age, Dublin Bus can hold dear to antiquated fare stages and revenue collection ideas, holding buses at busy city centre bus stops for five minutes or more while the pennies are counted out. It is grotesque, unbelieveable, bizarre, unprecedented, and Dublin Bus cannot complain to anyone about congestion causing delays to buses while they persevere with this nonsense.

I would see streets such as Marlborough Street, Jervis Street, etc. as set down areas only, with specified boarding points at selected streets such as Parnell Square, St. Stephen’s Green, streets where there is space to do so safely. The thing is to have a minimum of bus stops, rather than bus stops in every street, whether there is room or not. If streets such as Parnell Square East and West were bus only, I see no reason why terminating buses would not nose to kerb, at 45 degree angles, and reverse out under the eye of a stance inspector. Bus stop capacity would be tripled or quadrupled.

I do see merit in having ONE bus route in O’Connell Street, running up and down the centre meridian, rather in the manner that the old trams did. I would see this route not as a cross city route, but as a free or sponsored service within the canals, connecting the city centre with other bus routes whose boarding points are necessarily removed from the immediate city area. I would see such a service run by electrically powered single deck buses, charged from charging points at designated waiting points along the route, perhaps limited to 30kph. The Montmartre buses in Paris are an example of this.

I think it is a pity that the LUAS is going to be shoehorned into College Green and O’Connell Street, alongside the buses and all the other traffic, as if some of the buses will somehow disappear with the arrival of the LUAS. There are hundreds of very learned posts here on the topic of creating civic minded plazas in the College Green area. The fact is, all this discourse is for nothing if the LUAS goes through as planned. I am all for digging up College Green and O’Connell Street and running a Metro below ground, but I think the LUAS is going to have too much dominance in an area where pedestrians should have priority, and the very fact of LUAS running through such a congested area, will negate any efficiencies in terms of speed and reliability that might otherwise accrue to a light rail system. The Red Line is a perfect example of this. We are pursuing a single minded path regardless of any lessons that might be learned from past mistakes.

Finally, from the Ken Finlay collection, a view of O’Connell Street in wartime Dublin, with streets deserted except for public transport. What O’Connell Street MIGHT look like, and consequently, College Green…

Really good post Busman. Great ideas for improving the service. Hopefully someone in Dublin Bus is watching!!

@Busman wrote:

I think it is a pity that the LUAS is going to be shoehorned into College Green and O’Connell Street, alongside the buses and all the other traffic, as if some of the buses will somehow disappear with the arrival of the LUAS.

The fact is, all this discourse is for nothing if the LUAS goes through as planned.

I am all for digging up College Green and O’Connell Street and running a Metro below ground, but I think the LUAS is going to have too much dominance in an area where pedestrians should have priority, and the very fact of LUAS running through such a congested area, will negate any efficiencies in terms of speed and reliability that might otherwise accrue to a light rail system. The Red Line is a perfect example of this. We are pursuing a single minded path regardless of any lessons that might be learned from past mistakes.

Everything you’ve said about the buses seems to be incontestable, and far more researched and rational than anything I’ve heard before on the subject. I guess your not called Busman for nothing 🙂 (second smiley face in 6 months)

On the Luas, while I accept that it compromises the level of full pedestrianisation that can be achieved on a given street or square, to begin to reject the Luas on these kinds of grounds, for not doing enough to civilize the city, is just a step too far for me.

I agree that we would add to the chaos, if we just added Luas into the mix at a place like College Green, but if there was a real dedication to getting rid of everything else, I think that could still work.

I thought that this was pretty much the vision of them in charge; trucks gone, cars banned from next spring, buses and taxis to follow ? when Luas BX and Luas F arrive, some time after we’re all dead.

@Peter Fitz wrote:

I’d dispute that there is any necessity to run luas lines through college green with multiple alternative routes available, but concede this is the lazy, shortsighted option we are likely to get.

I don’t know which routes you’re suggesting, I can’t find good alternative routes, that’s the problem. Bearing in mind that if you pick a route that has a high loading of traffic, including bus traffic, already on it, like the Quays for example, the bulk of this displaced traffic will have to be accommodated on an alternative route and one travelling in much the same direction.

I’m already not comfortable with the existing Luas trams avoiding thoroughfares in favour of going down narrow side streets like Benburb street, it just doesn’t feel right.