Cloyne Cathedral Church of Ireland

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    • #710020
      ake
      Participant

      Just thought I would share some pictures of the Anglican Cathedral in Cloyne.

      [ATTACH]7548[/ATTACH][ATTACH]7549[/ATTACH]

      Pity the front of the nave is rendered in pebbledash since the rest of the exterior is quite attractive rubblework; The south transept exterior seems to retain the most medieval fabric, including moldings and a couple of worn sculptures; Looks like it’s been conservated recently;

      [ATTACH]7550[/ATTACH][ATTACH]7551[/ATTACH]

      The inside is beautifully plastered and painted white as it should be; the rather short nave is separated from the choir by a screen and door, a feature also seen in Lismore cathedral.

      [ATTACH]7552[/ATTACH][ATTACH]7553[/ATTACH]

      Gorgeous woodwork in the choir and what looks like your typical late medieval east window – if it’s not the original, then presumably it’s a precise replica;

      [ATTACH]7554[/ATTACH]

      Views west;

      [ATTACH]7555[/ATTACH][ATTACH]7556[/ATTACH]

      in the north transept are two interesting monuments and some good glass;

      [ATTACH]7557[/ATTACH][ATTACH]7558[/ATTACH]
      [ATTACH]7559[/ATTACH][ATTACH]7560[/ATTACH]

      large version of the triplet here http://www.flickr.com/photos/58086761@N00/2556714098/sizes/l/in/set-72157605480160489/

      The church also has a handful of other good monuments;

      [ATTACH]7561[/ATTACH][ATTACH]7562[/ATTACH]

      This unusual window;

      [ATTACH]7563[/ATTACH]

      And this beauty, salvaged from a nearby parish church deconsecrated;

      [ATTACH]7564[/ATTACH][ATTACH]7565[/ATTACH]
      [ATTACH]7566[/ATTACH][ATTACH]7567[/ATTACH]

      Anyone have any information any the cathedral or it’s contents? Please, share…

    • #800919
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      ake: very good pictures. The vegetation on the gable worries me, however charming it looks.
      I know it’s a fiddly point, but is anything served by calling the Church of Ireland ‘anglican’?; I know it is, but ‘epicopalian’ would be a more neutral term if more of a mouthful. ‘Anglican’ is a bit like calling its catholic equivalent (in course of being destroyed by its incumbents) ‘Roman’ or even ‘Italian’. The equivalent in Scotland used to be called by some ‘the English church’, which upset them no end.

    • #800920
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I would have thought that Church of Ireland was the most sensible description. Even those of us from Cloyne tend to call it that.

    • #800921
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Yes I thought the same thing about the plants growing out of the wall. The mortar looks so bright surely it must have been retouched within the last couple of years, yet already the weeds are re established…

    • #800922
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      aidan:I don’t want to flog the point, but ‘Church of Ireland’ is a bit like ‘Church of Scotland’ – although it’s legally correct, it’s a bit presumptuous, not to say hegemonic, in today’s terms – is either the ‘national’ church in any real sense?

    • #800923
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Presumptious of what?

      Its been disestablished for over a century, get over it!

    • #800924
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Interior looks much as when I saw it first, a very long time ago. It is very lightly used, with tiny congregations since the 1920’s at least, so the enthusiasm for “improvement” or “reordering” in evidence in the other diocese has happily been absent.

      Incidentally there are some Lawrence photos of the gable almost completely covered in ivy.

    • #800925
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      aidan: let’s not get aerated – if you can’t see presumption in the title ‘Church of Ireland’ then I can’t help you. Anyway, my point was about calling it ‘anglican’ which implies ‘non-irish’, just like more bigoted Prods calling the catholics ‘Roman’, implying non-native, or whatever.

    • #800926
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Congratulations. Some beautiful photographs.
      Is the Cathedral open on a daily basis?

    • #800927
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Lawyer – the cathedral isn’t generally open, but I think you can get a key at the cottage on the left as you go in the gate (you used be able to anyways). The round tower across the street used to be open to the public also – but I think it’s been off limits for a while. The graveyard is interesting too, if you’re into that kind of thing.

      For reference, the oldest part of the building is generally reckoned to be the south transcept, its been walled off for a long time, but as far as I can remember some sources claim it to be 12th century. I have some local history books at home, if there’s anything of note in them I’ll fire it up here at some stage.

      And Johnglas, I’m afraid I’m a little baffled by your concern at the ‘presumption’ involved. That is the historical name of the organisation. Would you prefer if they changed it to ‘A Church in Ireland’ to help make you feel less oppressed?

    • #800928
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      aidan: I’m not in Ireland and I don’t feel oppressed; what’s wrong with ‘Irish Episcopal Church’?

    • #800929
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Aidan said:

      “I would have thought that Church of Ireland was the most sensible description. Even those of us from Cloyne tend to call it that.”

      I am somewhat surprised to hear that.

      I am from the Midlands, and when i was growing up you would never hear anybody except C.of I.people themselves refer to it as “the Church of Ireland”. It was generally always “Protestant” (and sometimes “Anglican”).

      And Protestant definitely definitely meant C.of I. – you would hear people say things like “There are three Churches in our town- a Catholic one, a Protestant one, and a Presbyterian one” as if the Presbyterians were not Protestants as well.

    • #800930
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Ok, there are some brief details given in a short article in “The Book of Cloyne” by Rev JKS Ridley Barker. Very little in terms of the building itself, save that it apparently dates from 1250 and was built on the site of older buildings.

      The first tomb in the northern transept is a Fitzgerald, the other monument is to Berkeley (done by Bruce Joy), the quote on the wall is by Pope (Alexander rather than ‘the’) “To Berkeley every virtue under heaven”. Two of Berkeleys children are buried under the floor in that transept also (under the letter ‘B’).

      Obviously, the two monuments are to Bishop Warburton (the last Bishop buried in the cathedral) and Bishop Bennett; apparently theres also another monument to Brinkley also, but I can’t remember where that is. The character in the triplet of glass is St Colman (St Finbarr is also featured, presumably as a representative of that other city in Co Cork). There’s no date given for the glass, but it is referred to as ‘modern’.

      The monuments in the south transept are generally to the Longfield family, although there are some that are difficult to decipher (according to the good Reverend). There’s very little else. Pity the OP didn’t get a picture of the carvings over the door on the northern wall.

      Speaking of the Longfields, if someone was looking for a great example of a preserved estate core, Castlemary, about 2 km to the west of Cloyne, is as good as you’ll find, even if the castle didn’t survive the 20s. The cathedral is essentially a monument now to those who lived in estates like that, and Ballymaloe and Ardavilling, and is essentially kept going by a very small community. As far as I know Services are only held there once a month now.

      Like I said, the graveyard is interesting. Paul McCotter did a book on the names of those buried in the graveyard around the Cathedral, tracing every one of them back through the records.

      As for the naming convention – it seems to be the norm in that part of Cork, I never heard it referred to as being ‘the’ Protestant church when I was growing up in Cloyne, even though there was no doubt but that that is what it was. My grandfather referred to it as being Church of Ireland, and he certainly wouldn’t have been impressed, in awe or suborned in any way. In terms of describing an individual’s religious affiliation, ‘C of I’ was used interchangeably with ‘Protestant’, but my impression, subjective as it is, was that the term ‘Church of Ireland’ was preferred in polite company on the basis that it avoided any link to sectarian conflict elsewhere in Ireland.

    • #800931
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Thanks for that Aidan. Know anything about the wood carving at the west end?

      I must say that the graveyard, which is a good, interesting one as you would expect, could really do with a bit of caretaking, as most graveyards could I suppose, but the absence of grass here is a real shame. As you can see here it’s a handsome spectacle with a healthy carpet of green;

      http://www.libraryireland.com/Atlas/Cork-Cloyne-Cathedral.php

      I certainly object to the authors’s evaluation in that piece!

      I was lucky to catch the keyholder just as she was leaving but I believe it was supposed to be open and is generally kept open, at this time of year anyway.

    • #800932
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @johnglas wrote:

      aidan: I’m not in Ireland and I don’t feel oppressed; what’s wrong with ‘Irish Episcopal Church’?

      How about, no one would have a clue what you were referring to? A significant disadvantage for a name.

      I’ve never heard of the term “Church of Ireland” being considered presumptious, oppressive, offensive or anything else. It may be an issue in Scotland but it certainly isn’t one here. It’s completely neutral.

      If you want to start a lively debate, I suggest you try using the term “The British Isles”? :D:D:D

    • #800933
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I’m too fly for that; at the risk of repeating myself, my original (mild) observation was about the use of the term ‘Anglican’ (sic). I think we’ve exhausted this post now.

    • #800934
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @johnglas wrote:

      I’m too fly for that; at the risk of repeating myself, my original (mild) observation was about the use of the term ‘Anglican’ (sic). I think we’ve exhausted this post now.

      QUITE!!

      Thanks, Aidan, for the interesting information. And of course thanks, ake, for the excellent photos, particularly of the windows.
      All of you possess a wealth of knowledge about this historic heritage building. WELL DONE!

      And I know perfectly well what you mean when you use the terms that you do use. CARRY ON!

    • #800935
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Rhabanus: grow up.

    • #800936
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      A note on Cloyne from Lewis’ Topography of Ireland:

      CLOYNE, a market and post-town, a parish, and the seat of a diocese, in the barony of IMOKILLY, county of CORK, and province of MUNSTER, 14 miles (E. by S.) from Cork, and 126 (S. W. by S.) from Dublin, on the road from Midleton to the sea; containing 6410 inhabitants, of which number, 2227 are in the town. It originated in the foundation of the see of Cloyne by St. Colman, who died in 604. In 707, an abbey was erected on the west side of the cathedral, which was plundered in 978 by the people of Ossory, and again, in 1089, by Dermot, the son of Fiordhealbhach O’Brien. The town is pleasantly situated in a level or slightly undulating plain, and is well sheltered by rising grounds and plantations, which give great amenity to the climate. It comprises two streets intersecting each other at right angles, and contains 330 houses, most of which are small and irregularly built. The bishop’s palace is a large edifice, built by Bishop Crow, in 1718, and enlarged by several of the succeeding prelates. The grounds are well arranged, and near the house is a noble terrace, extending the whole length of the garden. The palace and demesne were leased, in 1836, by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, to H. Allen, Esq., for 999 years, at a rent of £450 per annum, a fine of £2000, and £1300 for the timber: Mr. Allen intends to take down all the old part of the palace. The only manufacture is that of brogues and hats, which employs about 100 persons. The market is held on Thursday, and is well attended by buyers from Cove and Cork. Fairs are held on Feb. 24th, Easter and Whit-Tuesdays, Aug. 1st, Sept. 12th, and Dec. 5th, for the sale of horses, cattle, sheep, pigs, and implements of husbandry. It is a constabulary police station. The bishop, who is lord of the manor, appoints a seneschal, who holds a court-leet annually, and a manor court once in three weeks. Petty sessions are held every second Wednesday. The parish comprises 10,324 acres, of which 9552 are subject to tithe; the remainder consists of the bishop’s lands, or those belonging to an ancient hospital, upon which part of the town is built. The soil is good, particularly in the valley, where it rests on a substratum of limestone. At Carrigacrump is a quarry of fine marble, somewhat similar to the Italian dove-coloured marble; it is the property of Col. Hooden. The parish is intersected by that of Kilmahon, which entirely separates from it the village and ploughland of Ballycotton, forming the extreme western point of the coast. in Ballycotton bay. Besides the Episcopal palace, the principal seats are Kilboy House, the residence of F. Rowland, Esq.; Kilcrone, of J. Hanning, Esq.; Barnabrow, of J. R. Wilkinson, Esq; the Residentiary-house, of the Rev. W. Welland; Cloyne House, the seat of H. Allen, Esq.; the residence of the Rev. Dr. Hingston, Vicar-General of the diocese; Jamesbrook Hall, of R. W. G. Adams, Esq.; and Ballyhane, of T. Gaggin, Esq. Not far from the town are Rostellan, the seat of the Marquess of Thomond, and Castle-Mary, of the Rev. R. Longfield.

      And, I wonder if this is not the photograph of the ivy clad gable referred to above:

    • #800937
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Concerning the ancient structure in the Cathedral Precinct Cloyne, the so-called Fire House, which was believed to shelter the remains of St. Colman himself, Paul MacCotter, in his COlman of Cloyne: A study, published by Fouy Courts Press, page 119 has the following:

      “The bishop’s palace in Cloyne, earlier seat of the Geraldine bishops and deans, was graced by several noble and humane incumbents whose contribution to knowledge and letter is well known and whose associations still bring lustre to Cloyne. Only one bishop is cast in doubious light in relation to stewardship of the ancient holy places of Cloyne, and this was Bishop Cahrles Crowe (1702-1726). AN enduring local tradition, first recorded by Windele early in the nineteenth cnetury, and still current in the area to this very day, attributes to Crowe the deliberate destruction of what appears to have been an ancient oratory in the grounds of the cathedral, believed by the local populace to house the remains of Colamn Mac Lenin himself. Craowe’s actions are attributed to distaste at an annual pilgrimage or pattern where the pious prayed at the saint’s tomb. The buiklding was said to have been reduced almost to ground level and what had been dug up from the interior carted off to Ballycroneen and thrown into the sea. Some support for this tradition comes from recent aracaeological investigations into the remains of the oratory or Fire ouse, which found only burials post-dating Crowe’s episcopate. Such an action would not have been out of place in one of the most sectarian and distrubed periods of Irish history, and Crowe is known to have referred to his Catholic fellow-twonsmen as “Teagues”. Such philistine iconoclasticism,a s one wuld expect, was very much the exception and the record over several centuries rather shows clearly the continued and expensive commitment to maintaining the fabric of cathedral and precinct by Cloyne’s Church of Ireland community”.

    • #800938
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I think it should also be noted that many of those who did (or do) the pilgrimage were (or are) the descendents of the pueri homines Sancti Colmani or the heriditary bondsmen of the ecclesiastical lands subject to the monastery (and subsequent diocese) of Cloyne. This class, which remained mostly undisturbed on the ecclesiastical lands of diocese of Cloyne, were still identifiable into the early modern period. Their social function was to work the ecclesiastical lands (or cross-lands) of the monastery and subsequent diocese. They were to be found in all of the five pre-Norman cantreds which make up the present diocese of Cloyne. The social condition of this class is not to be equated with feudal serfs as many of them held land directly from the paruchia, provided candidates for the monastery of Cloyne, and also a number of Abbots and Bishops for that See. It is perhaps not unassociated with this social arrangement that the surname “Coleman” is closely associated with the territory of the early monastery of Cloyne.

    • #800939
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I know there is a very good Catholic parish church in Cloyne, but the parlous stae of Cloyne cathedral (in terms of the size of its congregation, not the fabric) underlines the fact that many small communities have more than one place of worship where one would do (in this case the historic cathedral). It is such a magnificent old building and so well maintained by such a small congregation that one fears for its future if it is not regularly repaired. I am not advocating that anyone gives up ‘ownership’ of the building, merely that it should be seen more as an asset by everyone. Although ake’s pics show the building in generally good repair, in parts the internal plasterwork looks in poor condition and one wonders if the building is properly heated and ventilated outside of service times.
      Anyway, it was good of ake to alert us to this gem; perhaps now more people will take an interesrt in it, perhaps even through the form of a joint pilgrimage (cf. Walsingham, Iona).

    • #800940
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Some quotes from Windele’s Historical Notices on the City of Cork published in 1839 on Cloyne Cathedral:

      “The ancient cathedral of St Coleman, is a low cruciform building, consisting of nave, choir, and north and south transepts, without a tower, it is of considerable antiquity, and is now one of the few remaining ancient cathedral churches, surviving the wreck of time and fanaticism. Its style is of the early pointed order that prevailed between the reigns of Stephen and Edward I….That it formerly possessed a tower, placed in the centre of the building, at the intersection of the transepts, the slightest inspection will shew…..In examining this building, the idea irresistably occurs, that the whole must, at some former time, have been subjected to the some terrible attempts at its demoliton. Its present condition (ante 1839) exhibits a series of patching and repairs in every part, done with a total absence of taste, and evidently with no higher hope than to keep it in some sort together; the remains of ancient carved stone-work, mouldings, shafts, capitals, mullions, drips etc present themselves everywhere, be-plastered and encrusted over with whitewash. Ancient windows have been filled in with masonry, whilst modern ones have been else-where opened up, out of all harmony with the character of the building, yet, perhaps, with the evidence, everywhere visible, of some former sack and delapidation. We should not too fastidiously condemn, nor be wholly thankless, since really our wonder ought to be, that the church has survived in any form…The nave is 120 feet in length…the choir is 70 feet in lenght”..

    • #800941
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Thanks for all that Prax interesting stuff.

      @Praxiteles wrote:

      Craowe’s actions are attributed to distaste at an annual pilgrimage or pattern where the pious prayed at the saint’s tomb. The building was said to have been reduced almost to ground level and what had been dug up from the interior carted off to Ballycroneen and thrown into the sea.

      A terrible shame that.

      I know it’s not the only example, but it is very peculiar to see the original cathedral precinct now embedded in the village, with the round tower on one of the streets amid modern housing! – totally different to the situations at Cashel, Kilkenny, Kells, etc. I would love to see the tower renovated and opened to visitors right to the top, along with some improvements to the cathedral. It”d be quite an attraction.

      Just a small thing I noticed was the plastering right over of the quoins of the nave pillars, which I would have thought, would have been left bare- unless the original fabric was so much altered over time- anybody know if these are actually the original sturdy medieval piers ?

      e.g. in Youghal you have this;

      [ATTACH]7585[/ATTACH]

    • #800942
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      More from Windele (1839) on Cloyne Cathedral:

      “Attached to one of the piers, in the south range. is a handsome monument, erected to the memory of Bishop Bennett, (the friend of Parr). It was designed by W. WIlles, and executed in white marble, by J. Heffernan, both of Cork, the latter a disciple of Chantry,a nd it represents an Indian kneeling under the shadow of a palm tree, his clasped hands on an open Bible, and his face lifted up, with an expression of the most ardent devotion. The Bishop was a zealous advocate of the foreign Bible society, the result of whose efforts is here finely expressed…..

      I the north transept is an altar tomb, belonging to the Fitzgeralds of Imokilly; on it are laid some fragments of a mailed figure, which had probably once belonged ot it. The Latin inscription records the death of John Geraldinis, and his son. who both died in 1612. Attached to the wall, is a monument of Dr. Woodward, Bishop of CLoyne, who died in 1794. He was the author of “The Present State of the Church of Ireland”, published in 1787,..his epitaph states that he was the advocate, in his place in the House of Peers, of Catholic Emancipation. At the same side, is a mural monument to Bishop Warburton, another bishop of the See, who died in 1826.

    • #800943
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      The present division between the Nave and Quire is nineteenth century. The lovely classical woodwork so beautifully pictured at the west end is as I recall the remains of the eighteenth century screen on top of which was an organ. There was a full choral foundation singing daily services until quite late but the disestablishment swept it away. The organ blocks the south transept. The latter is fine within and was being restored recently. I hope it will again be opened to the public or perhaps used again as a side chapel as in the mid twentieth century There is some talk of restoring the cathedral organ

      As has been noted there are striking similarities between the cathedral and the collegiate church of Cloyne in the same diocese.

      I am an anglican priest – Perhaps I may be indulged and tell you that I have myself been appointed Rector of the collegiate church of Youghal and begin on the feast of the nativity of Our Lady? I would be delighted to meet those in the area who contribute to this discussion forum.

      (

    • #800944
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Re the choir screen now serving as a poarch, again, hear ye Windele:

      “The entrance to the Choir is through the organ screen, a structure erected in 1776 by Bishop Agar. It is in the Ionic style (rather inappropriate to that of the church itself,) and is placed between two masive pointed arches, the probable base of the departed bell tower. In one of those arches is still preserved a well white-washed lavatory, or holy water fount”.

    • #800945
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @nebuly wrote:

      I am an anglican priest – Perhaps I may be indulged and tell you that I have myself been appointed Rector of the collegiate church of Youghal and begin on the feast of the nativity of Our Lady? I would be delighted to meet those in the area who contribute to this discussion forum.(

      Many heart-felt congratulations. It is a magnificent church and and one redolent on much history.

    • #800946
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Praxiteles wrote:

      Re the choir screen now serving as a poarch, again, hear ye Windele:

      “The entrance to the Choir is through the organ screen, a structure erected in 1776 by Bishop Agar. It is in the Ionic style (rather inappropriate to that of the church itself,) and is placed between two masive pointed arches, the probable base of the departed bell tower. In one of those arches is still preserved a well white-washed lavatory, or holy water fount”.

      I thought it was Georgian. A nice piece of work.

    • #800947
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @nebuly wrote:

      As has been noted there are striking similarities between the cathedral and the collegiate church of Cloyne in the same diocese.

      I am an anglican priest – Perhaps I may be indulged and tell you that I have myself been appointed Rector of the collegiate church of Youghal and begin on the feast of the nativity of Our Lady? I would be delighted to meet those in the area who contribute to this discussion forum.

      (

      Delighted to hear it.

    • #800948
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      You are both very gracious –

      Evidently I did mean Youghal but you overlooked my error. Let us hope that the parishioners and residents also do so

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