Cloyne Cathedral Church of Ireland
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Just thought I would share some pictures of the Anglican Cathedral in Cloyne.
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Pity the front of the nave is rendered in pebbledash since the rest of the exterior is quite attractive rubblework; The south transept exterior seems to retain the most medieval fabric, including moldings and a couple of worn sculptures; Looks like it’s been conservated recently;
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The inside is beautifully plastered and painted white as it should be; the rather short nave is separated from the choir by a screen and door, a feature also seen in Lismore cathedral.
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Gorgeous woodwork in the choir and what looks like your typical late medieval east window – if it’s not the original, then presumably it’s a precise replica;
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Views west;
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in the north transept are two interesting monuments and some good glass;
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[ATTACH]7559[/ATTACH][ATTACH]7560[/ATTACH]large version of the triplet here http://www.flickr.com/photos/58086761@N00/2556714098/sizes/l/in/set-72157605480160489/
The church also has a handful of other good monuments;
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This unusual window;
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And this beauty, salvaged from a nearby parish church deconsecrated;
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[ATTACH]7566[/ATTACH][ATTACH]7567[/ATTACH]Anyone have any information any the cathedral or it’s contents? Please, share…
ake: very good pictures. The vegetation on the gable worries me, however charming it looks.
I know it’s a fiddly point, but is anything served by calling the Church of Ireland ‘anglican’?; I know it is, but ‘epicopalian’ would be a more neutral term if more of a mouthful. ‘Anglican’ is a bit like calling its catholic equivalent (in course of being destroyed by its incumbents) ‘Roman’ or even ‘Italian’. The equivalent in Scotland used to be called by some ‘the English church’, which upset them no end.I would have thought that Church of Ireland was the most sensible description. Even those of us from Cloyne tend to call it that.
Yes I thought the same thing about the plants growing out of the wall. The mortar looks so bright surely it must have been retouched within the last couple of years, yet already the weeds are re established…
aidan:I don’t want to flog the point, but ‘Church of Ireland’ is a bit like ‘Church of Scotland’ – although it’s legally correct, it’s a bit presumptuous, not to say hegemonic, in today’s terms – is either the ‘national’ church in any real sense?
Presumptious of what?
Its been disestablished for over a century, get over it!
Interior looks much as when I saw it first, a very long time ago. It is very lightly used, with tiny congregations since the 1920’s at least, so the enthusiasm for “improvement” or “reordering” in evidence in the other diocese has happily been absent.
Incidentally there are some Lawrence photos of the gable almost completely covered in ivy.
aidan: let’s not get aerated – if you can’t see presumption in the title ‘Church of Ireland’ then I can’t help you. Anyway, my point was about calling it ‘anglican’ which implies ‘non-irish’, just like more bigoted Prods calling the catholics ‘Roman’, implying non-native, or whatever.
Congratulations. Some beautiful photographs.
Is the Cathedral open on a daily basis?Lawyer – the cathedral isn’t generally open, but I think you can get a key at the cottage on the left as you go in the gate (you used be able to anyways). The round tower across the street used to be open to the public also – but I think it’s been off limits for a while. The graveyard is interesting too, if you’re into that kind of thing.
For reference, the oldest part of the building is generally reckoned to be the south transcept, its been walled off for a long time, but as far as I can remember some sources claim it to be 12th century. I have some local history books at home, if there’s anything of note in them I’ll fire it up here at some stage.
And Johnglas, I’m afraid I’m a little baffled by your concern at the ‘presumption’ involved. That is the historical name of the organisation. Would you prefer if they changed it to ‘A Church in Ireland’ to help make you feel less oppressed?
aidan: I’m not in Ireland and I don’t feel oppressed; what’s wrong with ‘Irish Episcopal Church’?
Aidan said:
“I would have thought that Church of Ireland was the most sensible description. Even those of us from Cloyne tend to call it that.”
I am somewhat surprised to hear that.
I am from the Midlands, and when i was growing up you would never hear anybody except C.of I.people themselves refer to it as “the Church of Ireland”. It was generally always “Protestant” (and sometimes “Anglican”).
And Protestant definitely definitely meant C.of I. – you would hear people say things like “There are three Churches in our town- a Catholic one, a Protestant one, and a Presbyterian one” as if the Presbyterians were not Protestants as well.
Ok, there are some brief details given in a short article in “The Book of Cloyne” by Rev JKS Ridley Barker. Very little in terms of the building itself, save that it apparently dates from 1250 and was built on the site of older buildings.
The first tomb in the northern transept is a Fitzgerald, the other monument is to Berkeley (done by Bruce Joy), the quote on the wall is by Pope (Alexander rather than ‘the’) “To Berkeley every virtue under heaven”. Two of Berkeleys children are buried under the floor in that transept also (under the letter ‘B’).
Obviously, the two monuments are to Bishop Warburton (the last Bishop buried in the cathedral) and Bishop Bennett; apparently theres also another monument to Brinkley also, but I can’t remember where that is. The character in the triplet of glass is St Colman (St Finbarr is also featured, presumably as a representative of that other city in Co Cork). There’s no date given for the glass, but it is referred to as ‘modern’.
The monuments in the south transept are generally to the Longfield family, although there are some that are difficult to decipher (according to the good Reverend). There’s very little else. Pity the OP didn’t get a picture of the carvings over the door on the northern wall.
Speaking of the Longfields, if someone was looking for a great example of a preserved estate core, Castlemary, about 2 km to the west of Cloyne, is as good as you’ll find, even if the castle didn’t survive the 20s. The cathedral is essentially a monument now to those who lived in estates like that, and Ballymaloe and Ardavilling, and is essentially kept going by a very small community. As far as I know Services are only held there once a month now.
Like I said, the graveyard is interesting. Paul McCotter did a book on the names of those buried in the graveyard around the Cathedral, tracing every one of them back through the records.
As for the naming convention – it seems to be the norm in that part of Cork, I never heard it referred to as being ‘the’ Protestant church when I was growing up in Cloyne, even though there was no doubt but that that is what it was. My grandfather referred to it as being Church of Ireland, and he certainly wouldn’t have been impressed, in awe or suborned in any way. In terms of describing an individual’s religious affiliation, ‘C of I’ was used interchangeably with ‘Protestant’, but my impression, subjective as it is, was that the term ‘Church of Ireland’ was preferred in polite company on the basis that it avoided any link to sectarian conflict elsewhere in Ireland.
Thanks for that Aidan. Know anything about the wood carving at the west end?
I must say that the graveyard, which is a good, interesting one as you would expect, could really do with a bit of caretaking, as most graveyards could I suppose, but the absence of grass here is a real shame. As you can see here it’s a handsome spectacle with a healthy carpet of green;
http://www.libraryireland.com/Atlas/Cork-Cloyne-Cathedral.php
I certainly object to the authors’s evaluation in that piece!
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I was lucky to catch the keyholder just as she was leaving but I believe it was supposed to be open and is generally kept open, at this time of year anyway.
@johnglas wrote:
aidan: I’m not in Ireland and I don’t feel oppressed; what’s wrong with ‘Irish Episcopal Church’?
How about, no one would have a clue what you were referring to? A significant disadvantage for a name.
I’ve never heard of the term “Church of Ireland” being considered presumptious, oppressive, offensive or anything else. It may be an issue in Scotland but it certainly isn’t one here. It’s completely neutral.
If you want to start a lively debate, I suggest you try using the term “The British Isles”? :D:D:D
I’m too fly for that; at the risk of repeating myself, my original (mild) observation was about the use of the term ‘Anglican’ (sic). I think we’ve exhausted this post now.
@johnglas wrote:
I’m too fly for that; at the risk of repeating myself, my original (mild) observation was about the use of the term ‘Anglican’ (sic). I think we’ve exhausted this post now.
QUITE!!
Thanks, Aidan, for the interesting information. And of course thanks, ake, for the excellent photos, particularly of the windows.
All of you possess a wealth of knowledge about this historic heritage building. WELL DONE!And I know perfectly well what you mean when you use the terms that you do use. CARRY ON!
Rhabanus: grow up.
A note on Cloyne from Lewis’ Topography of Ireland:
CLOYNE, a market and post-town, a parish, and the seat of a diocese, in the barony of IMOKILLY, county of CORK, and province of MUNSTER, 14 miles (E. by S.) from Cork, and 126 (S. W. by S.) from Dublin, on the road from Midleton to the sea; containing 6410 inhabitants, of which number, 2227 are in the town. It originated in the foundation of the see of Cloyne by St. Colman, who died in 604. In 707, an abbey was erected on the west side of the cathedral, which was plundered in 978 by the people of Ossory, and again, in 1089, by Dermot, the son of Fiordhealbhach O’Brien. The town is pleasantly situated in a level or slightly undulating plain, and is well sheltered by rising grounds and plantations, which give great amenity to the climate. It comprises two streets intersecting each other at right angles, and contains 330 houses, most of which are small and irregularly built. The bishop’s palace is a large edifice, built by Bishop Crow, in 1718, and enlarged by several of the succeeding prelates. The grounds are well arranged, and near the house is a noble terrace, extending the whole length of the garden. The palace and demesne were leased, in 1836, by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, to H. Allen, Esq., for 999 years, at a rent of £450 per annum, a fine of £2000, and £1300 for the timber: Mr. Allen intends to take down all the old part of the palace. The only manufacture is that of brogues and hats, which employs about 100 persons. The market is held on Thursday, and is well attended by buyers from Cove and Cork. Fairs are held on Feb. 24th, Easter and Whit-Tuesdays, Aug. 1st, Sept. 12th, and Dec. 5th, for the sale of horses, cattle, sheep, pigs, and implements of husbandry. It is a constabulary police station. The bishop, who is lord of the manor, appoints a seneschal, who holds a court-leet annually, and a manor court once in three weeks. Petty sessions are held every second Wednesday. The parish comprises 10,324 acres, of which 9552 are subject to tithe; the remainder consists of the bishop’s lands, or those belonging to an ancient hospital, upon which part of the town is built. The soil is good, particularly in the valley, where it rests on a substratum of limestone. At Carrigacrump is a quarry of fine marble, somewhat similar to the Italian dove-coloured marble; it is the property of Col. Hooden. The parish is intersected by that of Kilmahon, which entirely separates from it the village and ploughland of Ballycotton, forming the extreme western point of the coast. in Ballycotton bay. Besides the Episcopal palace, the principal seats are Kilboy House, the residence of F. Rowland, Esq.; Kilcrone, of J. Hanning, Esq.; Barnabrow, of J. R. Wilkinson, Esq; the Residentiary-house, of the Rev. W. Welland; Cloyne House, the seat of H. Allen, Esq.; the residence of the Rev. Dr. Hingston, Vicar-General of the diocese; Jamesbrook Hall, of R. W. G. Adams, Esq.; and Ballyhane, of T. Gaggin, Esq. Not far from the town are Rostellan, the seat of the Marquess of Thomond, and Castle-Mary, of the Rev. R. Longfield.
And, I wonder if this is not the photograph of the ivy clad gable referred to above:
Concerning the ancient structure in the Cathedral Precinct Cloyne, the so-called Fire House, which was believed to shelter the remains of St. Colman himself, Paul MacCotter, in his COlman of Cloyne: A study, published by Fouy Courts Press, page 119 has the following:
“The bishop’s palace in Cloyne, earlier seat of the Geraldine bishops and deans, was graced by several noble and humane incumbents whose contribution to knowledge and letter is well known and whose associations still bring lustre to Cloyne. Only one bishop is cast in doubious light in relation to stewardship of the ancient holy places of Cloyne, and this was Bishop Cahrles Crowe (1702-1726). AN enduring local tradition, first recorded by Windele early in the nineteenth cnetury, and still current in the area to this very day, attributes to Crowe the deliberate destruction of what appears to have been an ancient oratory in the grounds of the cathedral, believed by the local populace to house the remains of Colamn Mac Lenin himself. Craowe’s actions are attributed to distaste at an annual pilgrimage or pattern where the pious prayed at the saint’s tomb. The buiklding was said to have been reduced almost to ground level and what had been dug up from the interior carted off to Ballycroneen and thrown into the sea. Some support for this tradition comes from recent aracaeological investigations into the remains of the oratory or Fire ouse, which found only burials post-dating Crowe’s episcopate. Such an action would not have been out of place in one of the most sectarian and distrubed periods of Irish history, and Crowe is known to have referred to his Catholic fellow-twonsmen as “Teagues”. Such philistine iconoclasticism,a s one wuld expect, was very much the exception and the record over several centuries rather shows clearly the continued and expensive commitment to maintaining the fabric of cathedral and precinct by Cloyne’s Church of Ireland community”.
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