City Centre Remodelling and Pedestrianisation

William Street / Upper William Street & Sarsfield Street

Construction mobilisation – Works commences 5th July 2010 (Limerick City Council)

The William Street improvement scheme comprises the fourth stage of the Limerick City Centre Re-modelling of Streets and Public Open Spaces Programme, led by Limerick City Council Transport & Infrastructure department. This ambitious initiative aims to make the City Centre a visitor friendly environment and a far more attractive place in which to shop, to visit, do business, and pass the time of day.

The Remodelling of Limerick City Centre has been under-way since 2001, comprising the creation of a new public square at Baker Place, streetscape improvements at Lower Bedford Row, and a major transformation of Upper Bedford Row (between Henry Street and O’Connell Street) In phase 3 substantial upgrade works have been carried out on Thomas Street, Little Catherine Street, Augustinian Land, Foxes Bow and Block 1 of Catherine Street. Along the riverside major public realm improvements have also been completed at O’Callaghan Strand and Clancy Strand including the new Board walk all of which demonstrate the City Councils commitment to revitalising Limerick City Centre.

Development of the William Street/Sarsfield Street project has entailed extensive on-going consultation with key stakeholders and the local business and residential community on the street. Limerick City Council is grateful to the stakeholders for the level of cooperation and goodwill It has received throughout the consultation process in developing a scheme that meets the needs of the various street uses. This project also required the review of city centre traffic management measures and to facilitate the scheme a new road network was introduced earlier this year in the upper William Street area.

With the eminent opening of the tunnel, the national routes (N7, N24, N20 and N18) are now banished from the city centre thus giving the city council the green light to really remodel its streets. 🙂

Great news! I had noticed loads of those large concrete blocks used for mounting temporary traffic signs all around town the other day. Now i know what they are for.

If you look at the William Street signing PDF here, you can see they have added a bus lane to William street. Does anyone know where i can find proper plan drawings for this remodeling?

The only real problem I see with this is the fact that the city centre is dead. The amount of completely abandoned shops is almost impressive. Will pedestrianizing streets encourage shops to open?
I thought the Opera Centre had also (more or less) permanently stalled, or have the wheels begun to move again on that?
Even still, I’d be more than up for the full pedestrianization of O’Connell Street – even though I have my doubts how it could help the city centre’s businesses it would still freshen up the street and look great!

How soon do ye reckon they could start implementing the pedestrianization of our main thoroughfare?

The Remodelling of Limerick City Centre has been under-way since 2001, comprising the creation of a new public square at Baker Place.

One would want to compare old photos of Tait’s Clock to see the vast improvement achieved here. That no truck never hit the base of the clock as it stood in middle of the road fully unprotected is a wonder.

The only whim I have is the planting of trees so close to the clock where in time its view would be impaired thus making its function as a public clock worthless!

ShaneP scanned and uploaded the Baker Place plans a while back, photos city council.

@CologneMike wrote:

William Street / Upper William Street & Sarsfield Street

Construction mobilisation – Works commences 5th July 2010

Good to finally see some progress on this. There have been so many false starts over the last number of years, it was beginning to look as if it had been postponed indefinitely.

One aspect that stands out straight away is the cost. The value of the contract is listed as €4 million, which seems incredibly low for what is a fairly extensive project. Could this be right or have the plans been watered down I wonder?

I can’t say I’m too impressed by the addition of a bus lane here though. This reduces the street to a single lane for traffic which is really poorly thought out idea. Since the opening of the Cathedral Place – Sexton Street orbital link, the right hand lane of William Street is used by traffic turning onto that orbital link road. The left lane is for traffic heading outbound towards Mulgrave Street etc. Squeezing all this traffic into 1 lane is surely going to cause problems!

Original Plans for William Street (March 2007)

@Tuborg wrote:

Good to finally see some progress on this. There have been so many false starts over the last number of years, it was beginning to look as if it had been postponed indefinitely.

One aspect that stands out straight away is the cost. The value of the contract is listed as €4 million, which seems incredibly low for what is a fairly extensive project. Could this be right or have the plans been watered down I wonder?

I can’t say I’m too impressed by the addition of a bus lane here though. This reduces the street to a single lane for traffic which is really poorly thought out idea. Since the opening of the Cathedral Place – Sexton Street orbital link, the right hand lane of William Street is used by traffic turning onto that orbital link road. The left lane is for traffic heading outbound towards Mulgrave Street etc. Squeezing all this traffic into 1 lane is surely going to cause problems!

Funnily enough, the Council don’t necessarily want a free-flowing city centre. There appears to be a bit of collusion between the council and the operators of the new tunnel to restrict traffic in the city centre, and force some of it to use the tunnel. Heard this from a very reliable source. You’ll see a few seemingly illogical new traffic control measures in the city over the next few months, once the tunnel opens for business. Watch this space.

@Contraband wrote:

The only real problem I see with this is the fact that the city centre is dead. The amount of completely abandoned shops is almost impressive.

Agreed, however the city centre has so much potential and slowly but surely things are turning in its favour despite the savage loss of jobs associated with the Dell fall-out and the burst property bubble.

@Tuborg wrote:

I can’t say I’m too impressed by the addition of a bus lane here though. This reduces the street to a single lane for traffic which is really poorly thought out idea. Since the opening of the Cathedral Place – Sexton Street orbital link, the right hand lane of William Street is used by traffic turning onto that orbital link road. The left lane is for traffic heading outbound towards Mulgrave Street etc. Squeezing all this traffic into 1 lane is surely going to cause problems!

I think it could be a good concept for William Street i.e. forcing the main flow of traffic around the orbital route and discourage traffic driving straight through the city centre as a short-cut.

How will they manage the traffic when William Street is closed for the duration of works?

@zulutango wrote:

There appears to be a bit of collusion between the council and the operators of the new tunnel to restrict traffic in the city centre, and force some of it to use the tunnel. Heard this from a very reliable source. You’ll see a few seemingly illogical new traffic control measures in the city over the next few months, once the tunnel opens for business. Watch this space.

Hmmm . . . . . they could operate regular questionnaires for motorists with “non L-Number-Plates” on the Shannon Bridge or set up speed traps along the Dock, Dooradoyle, Ballysimon, Dublin roads, this should piss-off most tunnel dodgers. 😀

[align=center:u7jucr54]Orbital Route[/align:u7jucr54]

Does William st need to be closed for the duration of the works though? Also, I would imagine the taxi drivers will be up in arms with the loss of another rank outside guineys which it looks like this work will result in. Is that necessarily a good thing?

@CologneMike wrote:

I think it could be a good concept for William Street i.e. forcing the main flow of traffic around the orbital route and discourage traffic driving straight through the city centre as a short-cut.

You would hope that the orbital route would be fully up and running by this time but who knows!

It’s all very well making the city centre more pedestrian friendly. But at the same time I’d be slightly wary about reducing capacity on William Street. The tunnel will obviously be of enormous benefit to traffic that has no business entering Limerick City Centre. But there will still be a great deal of traffic inside the ring road that will continue to use the city centre for cross city trips.

You also have to factor in the reality that most people still prefer to drive into town and go about their business. Unfortunately the city centre is having enough difficulties pulling in the crowds as it is. We don’t want to give people any more excuses.

Therefore I would prefer to wait and see how traffic patterns develop in the city centre before implementing this bus lane on William Street.

O’Connell Street Remodelling Project

The proposed improvements of this Phase comprise the full pedestrianisation of O’Connell Street between the junctions with William Street and Roches Street (with vehicular access limited to service deliveries during controlled times). Footpath widening and improvements to lower O’Connell Street between William Street and Denmark Street and to upper O’Connell Street, between Roches Street and Mallow Street.

The works include the provision of high quality surface finishes; improved street lighting, new street furniture and street tree planting (subject to below ground conditions). Undergrounding of existing services, public utilities service trenches and ducts, remedial works to existing basements where necessary, and surface water drainage systems.

Proposed Pedestrian Zone

Really refreshing to see the first urban dividend from the Shannon Tunnel and a proposed pedestrian environment not done in the standard Chinese Granite.

That has made my day 😀

Debenhams & Penneys

Brown Thomas

Augustinian Church

@Tuborg wrote:

Debenhams & Penneys ]

The images look good but the reality (zombie city) is quite shocking. I’m a big fan of the city. I moved from there to Dublin about 7 years ago but have revisited on and off since. Last Thursday I was in Killaloe and decided to run in to the city for the late opening. There was none (except BT – nearly empty) and fast food emporia – the whole place looked derelict.

Cruises St (never much to look at) was abandoned and the city centre had a slightly intimidating feel. I parked in William Street and wondered if my car would be safe for the duration of my walkabout (hardly any other cars there).

The retail park on the Castletroy Road was closed although the nearby Childer’s Road one was doing well.

I imagine that the default choice must now be the Crescent shopping centre?

The city seems to be a victim of the myopia of competing planning authorities – by contrast Nenagh is much more vibrant and ‘real’ – certainly it has become the default choice for Killaloe people and beyond.:(

@publicrealm wrote:

The images look good but the reality (zombie city) is quite shocking.

Sadly your perception would find flavour with a lot of people in Limerick too.

Though in my opinion it’s more a perception of the “glass is half empty” as against the “glass is half full”.

An undeniable fact is money is too tight to mention. Against a backdrop where the savage job losses of the Dell fallout, plus the collapse of the building sector and the recession in general has hit retail trading very hard in Limerick. Not to mention your point of the myopia of competing planning authorities that created the “Doughnut-Effect” which in turn poisoned the city centre core (e.g. 2,500 free car parking spaces at the Crescent).

The city centre may have a tired look about it, even lagging behind other city centres like Cork, Galway etc, etc. But what we have, we have! It’s a case of building on that and taking it further to realise its full potential. Like for example the recent re-opening of the Milk Market which shows people have still a very strong attraction for the city centre.

There is still a great selection of traditional Limerick shops (like O’Mahony’s Book Shop, Savin’s Music Store etc, etc.) which gives the city centre its own unique brand.

Last Thursday I was in Killaloe and decided to run in to the city for the late opening. There was none (except BT – nearly empty) and fast food emporia – the whole place looked derelict.

The city centre empties itself after six o’clock when people leave work for home, thus which would explain the availability of parking spaces on William Street on a Thursday evening. Still though the lit up city looks well after dusk and despite its negative media coverage (warranted or not) young people are still willing to go out for a good night on the town.

Definitely, there are a lot of issues to be addressed, like the city centre not having a cinema complex!

Cruises St (never much to look at) was abandoned and the city centre had a slightly intimidating feel. . . . . . I imagine that the default choice must now be the Crescent shopping centre?

Granted Cruise’s Street “Legoland” character won’t rival the pedestrian shopping experience of Grafton Street ;), but I shudder to think how worse off the city centre would be without this purpose built pedestrian zone. One should bear in mind the NRA had up until the opening of the tunnel, more power over the city centre streets than the city council.

I personally would opt for the city centre than the sterile shopping mall of the Crescent any day. Though this in reality could maybe due to the fact, that I live within walking distance of the city centre, when home on vacation. Parking is never an issue for me.

So I’m pretty optimistic that the remodelling of the city centre streets, together with one single local authority responsible for the whole city, will turn the “half full glass” into a full one.

@CologneMike wrote:

Sadly your perception would find flavour with a lot of people in Limerick too.

Though in my opinion it’s more a perception of the “glass is half empty” as against the “glass is half full”.

Well stated CM.

I agree that there are many real shops in the city and I think you are correct also that my post was a little skewed towards ‘half-empty’.

I definitely would not want to encourage a half empty attitude to the city because it really needs a bit of TLC and committment at the moment and I would love to see it realise its obvious potential – it has a fantastic Georgial skeleton.

I suppose I was just really disappointed – having seen the contrast of Cork a couple of days before. Also I was expecting late opening on Thursday – which maybe does not happen in Limerick – most regional cities (sorry!) can look a little grotty when the crowds are gone.

I certainly don’t want to join the swelling ranks of her detractors 🙂

That’s a great succint appraisal of the situation, Mike.

The thing that stands out though is that parking is most definitly an issue. How we solve it, I don’t know.

Over the next 10 – 20 years we definitely need to get more people living in the city centre, and that will help shift the balance from a car dependent population to one that chooses walking, cycling and public transport as their primary means of getting around the city.

But ‘what we have’ now is a suburban population and we must make it easier for them to shop in the city centre.

The bus lanes and a (hopefully) vastly improved public transport system to come in the next few years will be an important factor in that.

The reduced traffic volumes (and it does seem very evident since the opening of the tunnel), will also make it easier for people to drive in and shop in the city centre.

But allowing for those improvements, we will still need a lot more parking space, and it’ll have to be co-ordinated so that it doesn’t cause more problems than it solves. And it will have to be close enough to the shops so that people will use it. And lastly, it will have to be inexpensive. Quite a problem to solve.

@Tuborg wrote:

I can’t say I’m too impressed by the addition of a bus lane here though. This reduces the street to a single lane for traffic which is really poorly thought out idea. Since the opening of the Cathedral Place – Sexton Street orbital link, the right hand lane of William Street is used by traffic turning onto that orbital link road. The left lane is for traffic heading outbound towards Mulgrave Street etc. Squeezing all this traffic into 1 lane is surely going to cause problems!

This weeks Limerick Post shows an updated proposal for William Street with a bus lane.

I see that two lanes of Sarsfield Street were reopened yesterday for traffic with the taxi rank and bus stops due to be completed in the coming weeks. (live95fm)

How is the work in Upper William Street progressing?

@CologneMike wrote:

This weeks Limerick Post shows an updated proposal for William Street with a bus lane.

I see that two lanes of Sarsfield Street were reopened yesterday for traffic with the taxi rank and bus stops due to be completed in the coming weeks. (live95fm)

How is the work in Upper William Street progressing?

Now it all makes sense as to why they lobbed a bus lane onto William Street. The City Council received significant government funding for the provision of bus lanes so naturally some of this cash can be used to fund the streetscape improvements also!

Otherwise I don’t think they would have been in a position to fund these projects given the current climate.

It might just be the image quality but the paving looks slightly different to earlier drawings. I hope they havent watered down the plans!

@CologneMike wrote:

Granted Cruise’s Street “Legoland” character won’t rival the pedestrian shopping experience of Grafton Street ;), but I shudder to think how worse off the city centre would be without this purpose built pedestrian zone. One should bear in mind the NRA had up until the opening of the tunnel, more power over the city centre streets than the city council.

I still say if the buildings on William street were spruced up, then despite the rubbish modern buildings at the start of the street, with the streetscape remodelled it would be leagues ahead of Cruises Street. As is it is often busier and people cross back and forth despite the traffic.

Cruises Street has a feel of a back-alley. Not surprising as basically that is what it is. It seems disappointing that the money that went into knocking Cruises Hotel and building Cruises Street couldn’t have gone into upgrading/refurbishing/replacing buildings along the existing streetscape – surely there was ample opportunity around that area even without Cruises Street. Now we still have the eyesores of the old Dunnes, Roches extension/Liddy St. shops, Penneys, Brown Thomas, the old Burgerland building (opposite Williamscourt – which was pretty much the land of the living dead until recently with Guineys). The new buildings on Sarsfield Street may as well have not been built – they are so grim looking! (being occupied would only make them marginally better than they are). Surely the money could have gone into replacing ugly modern buildings instead of tearing down an historic hotel and giving an excuse not to pedestrianise or upgrade existing long-standing city centre shopping streets (which have largely been left to rot until now).

Not that this scheme won’t be a vast improvement, but the picture above highlights the fact that the upper portion of William St., despite its grottiness, is an almost uninterrupted Georgian street. Surely if Limerick wants to highlight its status as a historic city it should be restoring the historic character of the street by installing heritage lamp posts and paving, and by encouraging the installation of appropriate shop fronts and sash windows and the removal of ugly rendering.

rumpelstiltskin,

I would prefer that, but the modern streetscape works quite well on Thomas Street and in a sense the Georgian buildings seem emphasised because of the contrast with the street treatment.

Also, I’m pretty sure the yellow stone used is far more cheerful (even more so in rain – important in Limerick) than any paving that has been used in the past, including any contemporary with the buildings. This is important and although in a sense it changes the character of the street, it is a positive change and in some ways makes the Georgian buildings seem to be in a more elegant setting. Thomas Street and the adjoining part of Catherine Street have a nice open atmosphere now, and Bedford Row, which would otherwise be Cruises Street-like in character due to the hulking block on the Marriot hotel side, is similarly lightened in atmosphere by the streetscape, despite being pretty shaded from sunshine.

I hope the paving used for William Street is similar.

Well it certainly looks brighter and happier. I think the advantage of this type of paving is that it draws attention away from drab buildings and gives colour to a grey streetscape. I think it would work very well in Cork, for example, where a lot of the buildings in the centre are intrinsically and unchangeably drab. But the buildings in Limerick, and on William St. in particular, are not intrinsically drab, they’ve just been molested over the years. If they were returned to their original state, grey paving stones would probably be most suitable. For example, look at Merrion Square in Dublin or Bloomsbury in London – they actually look prettier in the rain because the buildings were built specifically for our climate and light, and have been preserved properly; honey coloured paving would probably be out of place there. For this reason, I think choosing colourful paving is in some ways a lazy solution. That said, it’s certainly the best solution for Bedford Row and Lower Thomas Street, and probably for some portions of O’Connell St. too, as very few good old buildings remain.

I think it is curious that in the various discussions about the bus lanes in from the south that the issue of having to reroute the buses away from Todds (because we’re going to have a pedestrian only O’Connell st. at that point hasn’t been raised. The opportunity is there to connect the city buses with the regional services at the station if we’re going to move from Todds as the main city centre stop.

@KeepAnEyeOnBob wrote:

I still say if the buildings on William street were spruced up, then despite the rubbish modern buildings at the start of the street, with the streetscape remodelled it would be leagues ahead of Cruises Street. As is it is often busier and people cross back and forth despite the traffic.

Cruises Street has a feel of a back-alley. Not surprising as basically that is what it is. It seems disappointing that the money that went into knocking Cruises Hotel and building Cruises Street couldn’t have gone into upgrading/refurbishing/replacing buildings along the existing streetscape – surely there was ample opportunity around that area even without Cruises Street. Now we still have the eyesores of the old Dunnes, Roches extension/Liddy St. shops, Penneys, Brown Thomas, the old Burgerland building (opposite Williamscourt – which was pretty much the land of the living dead until recently with Guineys). The new buildings on Sarsfield Street may as well have not been built – they are so grim looking! (being occupied would only make them marginally better than they are). Surely the money could have gone into replacing ugly modern buildings instead of tearing down an historic hotel and giving an excuse not to pedestrianise or upgrade existing long-standing city centre shopping streets (which have largely been left to rot until now).

To dismiss Cruises Street as nothing but a back-alley is absurd. These forty or so shops on a pedestrian street brought a healthy injection of fresh blood to the city’s centre retail trade twenty years ago. Granted the main thrust of this development was powered by English high street outlets which proved a success in maintaining footfall for the city centre, especially William Street.

The real disappointment for me is that Lower William Street has after twenty years still not grasped its good fortune by not building on the success of Cruises Street. For example there are two candidates on William Street which would be ideal for a Marks & Spencer Department Store.

The first building Sports 2000, which is also connected to Cruises Street to the rear.

The second building with EBS, Golden Grill and Centra is a waste of a high profile site.

My biggest disappointment is one local shoe shop on the corner of Chapel Street / William Street for doing shag-all with its shop front since Cruises Street opened.

The Sports 2000 building you refer to has been shamefully neglected. Imagine how well it would look if its brickwork was restored and an appropriate shopfront installed. Its one of the largest buildings on the street aswell but currently it’s being totally wasted with the upper floors either being used for storage or they could possibly be entirely vacant.

It really needs to be completely refurbished & reconfigured if it’s ever going to attract a major retailer again. It would probably also benefit from a relocation of the bus stop from that part of William Street. It might remove the scobe element that currently festers in that area!

Just as an aside I notice that the former Ferguson’s premises on the corner of O’Connell Street & Thomas Street is currently shrouded in scaffolding. They seem to be re-roofing & cleaning the building and there may also be some internal alterations taking place too. Hopefully this is in preparation for a new occupier.

@Tuborg wrote:

Just as an aside I notice that the former Ferguson’s premises on the corner of O’Connell Street & Thomas Street is currently shrouded in scaffolding. They seem to be re-roofing & cleaning the building and there may also be some internal alterations taking place too. Hopefully this is in preparation for a new occupier.

Would be great if they could remove the paint from the brick on the Thomas Street gable too.

Marie Hobbins writes in this week’s Limerick Post where Vincent Murray (City Council Senior Engineer) discloses details for John’s Square.

Post below from 29th November 2008

@jpsartre wrote:

These are some pictures from the John’s Sq. planning app. They’re going to use Kilkenny blue limestone all the way from the monument to Gerald Griffin St./William St. which will be kind of classy and a bit different to the French(?) limestone, Granite and pc slab they’ve used at Thomas St. etc. Lighting will play a big part in the scheme with all the buildings and trees being uplit. The pendant lighting thing is new to me but looks damn cool in the cg viz. imo. I also like the boules paving thing, wonder how that’ll go down in the town!, continental style outdoor bowling http://www.petanqueromania.ro/petanque_p84.html

Statue of Patrick Sarsfield 1881 (NIAH)

It took 40 years to erect it . . . . . after standing 130 years on Cathedral Place . . . . . we will probably spend decades on discussing plans to move it to a more prominent location on John’s Square.

See latest poll on Limerick Post.

Limerick City Centre Inner Orbital Route Phase 3

R445 Clare Street/Abbey Bridge/Lelia Street Traffic Management Scheme

Phase 3 of the scheme provides for the removal of the Abbey Bridge Roundabout and the provision of traffic signal control at Abbey Bridge/Clare Street and Clare Street/Lelia Street junctions. Work has commenced on site on 30th September and will be completed by the end of November ahead of the peak Christmas 2010 shopping period.

The Clare Street/Lelia Street junction will be junction 1 on the Inner Orbital Route and once the Inner Orbital Route is fully completed will allow for controlled and orderly movement of traffic in and out of the core City centre. For the Pedestrianisation of O’Connell Street to proceed it will be necessary to direct some inbound City traffic from Clare Street via Cathedral Place to the City Centre as traffic entering the City via Charlottes Quay onto Patrick Street will be directed up William Street.

The removal of roundabouts in City centre locations and their replacements with traffic signals whilst sometimes controversial is necessary where consideration of safe pedestrian movement and cycling mobility is given detailed consideration.

Traffic light controlled junctions are proven to be much safer junctions for pedestrians and cyclists. This location adjacent to the Pennywell and Garryowen and Grove Island residential communities and L.I.T. college of Art and the recreational amenities of the canal bank walks and cycle paths has generated pedestrian and cycle road crossing demands which cannot now be safely accommodated at the Abbey Bridge Roundabout and Clare Street Lelia Street junction.

The scheme will include the provision of new footpaths on Clare Street in high quality materials, new public lighting, CCTV, pedestrian crossings and new tree planting near the canal entrance

Project layout: Sheet 1, Sheet 2, Sheet 3

No loss here, the Abbey Bridge roundabout had a horrible layout & lots of motorists seemed to have great difficulty navigating it. I hope the remodelling job extends to removing all outdated signage aswell. Clare Street hasn’t been the N7 for six and a half years now! :rolleyes:

Next up for the chop is the Shannon Bridge roundabout, the wisdom of which I’m much more sceptical about.

Spotted this recently.

I really don’t feel that traffic lights are needed here. In my experience the Shannon Bridge roundabout isn’t a significant congestion point and in the main traffic flows quite smoothly through it.

Traffic lights seem to be all the rage in Limerick City Hall at the moment. New sets have been switched on in recent weeks on the Dock Road and Clare Street.

Limerick City Council’s u-turn on traffic lights at roundabout

An artists impression of the proposed new junction at Shannon Bridge

By Petula Martyn

CONTROVERSIAL plans to replace the Shannon roundabout with a set of traffic lights as part of the city’s new orbital route has been deferred by Limerick City Council.

The opening of the Limerick Tunnel which has resulted in a dramatic decline in traffic volumes in the city has given the local authority major scope to upgrade this entrance to the city, and the council wanted to replace the roundabout which links the Shannon Bridge with the Dock Road with traffic lights.

When the proposed development was first mooted, councillors were told that the roundabout had “outgrown its usefulness as a traffic management tool” and a controlled junction would allow for better traffic management. It appears the city council has done a U-turn on the proposed change to the city’s road infrastructure and has opted to defer the change indefinitely.

Soft landscaping work will still proceed at the junction.

The vast majority of councillors expressed their opposition to the proposal. During a heated discussion on the issue last year, Cllr John Gilligan said the city engineers “seem to have a mania” about traffic lights and he said replacing the Shannon roundabout with traffic lights would, in his view, be a “backward step.”

Cllr Maurice Quinlivan said residents on the northside of the city had huge concerns over the impact of the proposed change and he said: “If it is not broken, don’t fix it.”

Had a look today at the stone pavement they are laying down for William Street. Not really impressed by the quality as it looks both cheap and dull and adds little to the dreariness of William Street especially on a wet miserable limerick day as was today. Although some people here believe that the stone used for Bedford Row and Thomas Street is too colorful and false looking I believe that had the council used it for William street it would bring some continuation and lightness to the street. Other options could have been to use the paving used along O’Callaghan and Clancy Strands. Something that would spark this prominent street with a much need revival. But no. What now seems to be unfolding for William Street is a grey and dank street scape that will go in hand with many of its surrounding buildings and will no doubt be a continuing embarrassment for years to come for this city.

In fairness whatever the council puts down it will probably be covered in gum by yobs in a couple of months whilst waiting for their buses outside champion. Should just have left it the way it was.

The stuff on Thomas Street, and Bedford Row is a bloody dangerous nightmare. One drop of rain and it becomes too slippy to handle, I’ve almost ended up on my arse a number of times because of it. It’s not suitable to the climate, it does look nice but putting it in a city that has as much rainfall as we do is idiotic.

The stuff on William Street looks good imho, It’s clean and well put together. Sure it doesn’t look as fancy as Thomas St or Bedford Row, but at least it’s safe to walk on 365 days of the year.

I think William Street is looking great. The council obviously have a much smaller budget for this than the Thomas street project. They simply could not afford to pave the entire street in natural stone. What they have done is clean and in keeping with the style set out on the other streets already finished. William street was a huge embarrasmet on the city before. I think this is a huge improvement, something to encorage not moan about.

@foinse wrote:

The stuff on Thomas Street, and Bedford Row is a bloody dangerous nightmare. One drop of rain and it becomes too slippy to handle, I’ve almost ended up on my arse a number of times because of it. It’s not suitable to the climate, it does look nice but putting it in a city that has as much rainfall as we do is idiotic.

The stuff on William Street looks good imho, It’s clean and well put together. Sure it doesn’t look as fancy as Thomas St or Bedford Row, but at least it’s safe to walk on 365 days of the year.

I’ve never had that problem. Maybe you should buy a better pair of shoes.

Maybe there was a lower budget this time around but it shouldn’t detract on quality.Passing through Mitchelstown recently I noticed how large natural stone was used along much of the lower main street there. The effect is a very attractive street scape which I assume wouldn’t have been hugely expensive or indeed anything more than limerick City Council could replicate for William Street.Limerick on the other hand should be aiming for something infinitely more attractive than what is unfolding now. It may be ‘fine’ but for one of Limerick’s most important streets it should be grander.I know it may seem like a moan but limerick as the major shopping destination in the region and as a tourist attraction should be aiming for higher standards.

@rumpelstiltskin wrote:

@foinse wrote:

The stuff on Thomas Street, and Bedford Row is a bloody dangerous nightmare. One drop of rain and it becomes too slippy to handle, I’ve almost ended up on my arse a number of times because of it. It’s not suitable to the climate, it does look nice but putting it in a city that has as much rainfall as we do is idiotic.

The stuff on William Street looks good imho, It’s clean and well put together. Sure it doesn’t look as fancy as Thomas St or Bedford Row, but at least it’s safe to walk on 365 days of the year.

I’ve never had that problem. Maybe you should buy a better pair of shoes.

Nothing wrong with my shoes mate, I’ve a wide range from Haix boots, to asics runners, to leather soled dress shoes, skate shoes and casual shoes.

I have also been on crutches for the last 6 months. Trust me I’ve had nothing but problems with that paving, to the extent that I avoid those streets unless it’s dry. Or in the case of Thomas Street, I walk in the road on the cobblelock, also the majority of the people I know agree with me on this.

I will say that while wearing the Haix boots (work shoes) is the only time I have any bit of grip on that surface.

I think it’s the limestone bands in the Thomas Street paving that become particularly slippery in the wet.

I can understand them wanting to use limestone in Limerick, but it probably is a small bit reckless all the same.

the pedestrianized part of Thomas St.

We’ve got to find some more elegant solution to the public seating challenge other than the diagonal tank-trap slab, here joined by a particularly sad looking bunch of petrified pouffes.

Yes, unlike other stones, there is an unwritten rulebook for the use of limestone. This is often ignored in places where a strong tradition for its use exists, like Limerick, where it oozes from every facet of its composition.

As demonstrated in gunter’s picture above, limestone should never be used where it can get soiled. It looks shockingly bad with even the most subtle of staining. Public seating is a classic example. Bollards or elements that get brushed and otherwise abused are another.

The lower end of the Thomas Street scheme is too cluttered and too busy in my view – so much so, it’s an area I can’t get away from quick enough as the whole ensemble wrecks my head. What sort of entrance is this to a street?

As one looks down, pointless and frustrating obstacles abound, such as the ridiculous pouffes that are nothing short of visual litter, as with the benches. The paving pattern is also too busy, scrappy and lacking in coherence. while demarcated sections lack function and are rendered somewhat meaningless. It all has the feeling of a cheap Spanish bathroom from Right Price Tiles, where a detailed interior aesthetic has been brought out into the open and magnified by 50. This type of practice abounds in Irish and British public realm design and is thoroughly unsatisfactory. There is nothing worse than a street being given finnicky treatment instead of the strength, clout and civic punch that a public place should exude.

Not to be harsh, one need only wander / quickly run to a side street for sanity to be relieved by elegant simplicity. How refreshing.

Likewise, paring things back on Bedford Row (below) so much better. The same can be said of the upper end of Thomas Street, where the strength of simple treatment harmonises with the confident streetscape to create something memorable, inviting and civic.

The grubby pouffes still need to be ditched. I’m sure there’s a harbour somewhere that needs reinforcement.

Very exciting things are happening on Augustinian Lane with the stunning new limestone paving. It has been laid with craft, simplicity and understanding of context. One of the few places in Ireland that a sophisticated and completely unexpected European vibe leaps out at you. Wonderful to see side streets being treated this way – to such a degree, it would nearly do Limerick a favour to get these linkages right than spend all the cash on big bang schemes for the main streets.

Magical.

Fergurson’s looks great since its makeover. One of the few modest buildings in Limerick that has been given subtle and appropriate treatment. More of this please.

(shame the gable wasn’t stripped of paint, but at least the red gloss is fun and traditional)

I didn’t think the Centra franchise could get much worse.

Ryan’s obviously know better. Fine standards in the planning department as ever.

Finally, while one might say that any improvement of public realm has to be welcomed, in the case of charming Baker Place it would have been better if nothing at all was carried out. If ever there was a categoric case of applying the wrong solution to a space, the recent works are it. The array of kerbs, steps, bollards and other ridiculous demarcations are proof that Irish road planners rule the roost when it comes to public realm. Frankly, they shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near it.

The second you arrive in Baker Place as an outsider, what immediately strikes you is the open plan nature of the space, and how the entire surface should be treated as one – roads, pavements and civic area. Traffic needs to be ground down to 30kmph and a single, plain, strong array of stone bollards used to demarcate the roads. Otherwise, the entire square surface should be composed of fine compacted gravel, with the clock proudly standing in classic European urban tradition as a focal point to the area. Unfortunately as is, the whole ensemble – an important part of Limerick’s hierarchy of public spaces – is gridded out, chopped up and politely pulverised, not by urban designers, but road engineers.

@demolition man wrote:

Maybe there was a lower budget this time around but it shouldn’t detract on quality.Passing through Mitchelstown recently I noticed how large natural stone was used along much of the lower main street there. The effect is a very attractive street scape which I assume wouldn’t have been hugely expensive or indeed anything more than limerick City Council could replicate for William Street.Limerick on the other hand should be aiming for something infinitely more attractive than what is unfolding now. It may be ‘fine’ but for one of Limerick’s most important streets it should be grander.I know it may seem like a moan but limerick as the major shopping destination in the region and as a tourist attraction should be aiming for higher standards.

Well unfortunately William Street will always be a dump unless they sort out the buildings. It’s such a shame because if Limerick cleaned up places like William Street it could be the handsomest city in Ireland – a lot of its beauty remains. It’s a testament to badly handled it is that a grotty non-destination like Cork attracts more visitors than stately Limerick.

@rumpelstiltskin wrote:

Well unfortunately William Street will always be a dump unless they sort out the buildings. It’s such a shame because if Limerick cleaned up places like William Street it could be the handsomest city in Ireland – a lot of its beauty remains. It’s a testament to badly handled it is that a grotty non-destination like Cork attracts more visitors than stately Limerick.

While I really like Limerick city and think it is very under-rated and appreciated, I don’t think you could call it stately. To me, stately implies grand thoroughfares, squares and public buildings. While you could make a case for the Hunt museum and the Carnegie building in Pery Sq., personally I can’t think of any grand thoroughfare. And while the peoples park is very nice, one nice park in the city centre is not enough to call it ‘stately’. ( By the way, does anyone else think the former Finucanes Electrical site on Thomas Street would make a lovely little city garden like a smaller version of the Horts del Rei gardens in Palma? http://www.360cities.net/image/horts-del-rei-gardens-near-palacio-almudaina-mallorca#306.32,6.56,69.0 )

I also have to stick up for Cork here. It has plenty of charm and while I absolutely hate the upgrade they gave to Patrick Street, it is a buzzing city that could give Limerick a lesson on how to be a relevant small city in the 21st century.

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Archaeologist to supervise upgrade of John’s Square (Limerick Leader)

By David Hurley

Published on Wednesday 14 September 2011

A FULL-time archaeologist has been appointed to supervise major upgrade works at the historic John’s Square.
Work began earlier this week as part of a €1 million upgrade of the area, which was approved by Limerick City Council more than two years ago.

The works, which are expected to continue until the end of the year, will see new surfaces being laid, the pedestrianisation of part of the square and the introduction of a one-way traffic system.

A full-time archaeologist has been appointed to work on the project due to the historic significance of the area.
According to Vincent Murray, senior executive engineer at Limerick City Council, it is likely there will be a number of significant archaeological finds during the works.

“There could be a lot of bones and remains due to the number of sieges and wars that took place in the area,” he said adding that the upgrade works could be delayed if there is a find of major archaeological importance.

“It is an immensely historic area and I have no idea what the archaeologists are going to find down there but I am certain they will find some artifacts,” said Cllr Diarmuid Scully, who is the author of ‘Unconquered City’ which is set during the Siege of Limerick in 1690

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Nice photos Graham and interesting observations too.

I believe Nicholas de Jung Associates have been the main force behind Limerick’s remodelling and pedestrianisation.

I hope they get the upgrade of John’s Square right (materials and design).

John’s Square Layout Map (see pdf)

@pigtown wrote:

@rumpelstiltskin wrote:

Well unfortunately William Street will always be a dump unless they sort out the buildings. It’s such a shame because if Limerick cleaned up places like William Street it could be the handsomest city in Ireland – a lot of its beauty remains. It’s a testament to badly handled it is that a grotty non-destination like Cork attracts more visitors than stately Limerick.

While I really like Limerick city and think it is very under-rated and appreciated, I don’t think you could call it stately. To me, stately implies grand thoroughfares, squares and public buildings. While you could make a case for the Hunt museum and the Carnegie building in Pery Sq., personally I can’t think of any grand thoroughfare. And while the peoples park is very nice, one nice park in the city centre is not enough to call it ‘stately’. ( By the way, does anyone else think the former Finucanes Electrical site on Thomas Street would make a lovely little city garden like a smaller version of the Horts del Rei gardens in Palma? http://www.360cities.net/image/horts-del-rei-gardens-near-palacio-almudaina-mallorca#306.32,6.56,69.0 )

I also have to stick up for Cork here. It has plenty of charm and while I absolutely hate the upgrade they gave to Patrick Street, it is a buzzing city that could give Limerick a lesson on how to be a relevant small city in the 21st century.

Ok, maybe stately is over the top in European terms, but in terms of what remains of its history Limerick is far superior to Cork in every respect. Almost everything in Cork is 19th and 20th century. There isn’t a single block in Cork, let alone a street, that can compete with the coherent Georgian streets which remain in Limerick, and the only medieval structure in Cork city is some bit of wall in the middle of a housing estate. If you look at old pictures of William Street, with its turn of the century shopfronts and sash windows, it’s really as pretty and buzzing as any street in Ireland – and for the top two thirds of the street almost all of these buildings are still there. In terms of looks and potential tourism – its riverside location, its medieval features, its Georgian buildings – Limerick outstrips anything Cork has to offer. And it is precisely this fact, that Cork is a much more pleasant city to walk around and gets so much more tourism, which highlights how tragically mismanaged and neglected Limerick is.

@rumpelstiltskin wrote:

Ok, maybe stately is over the top in European terms, but in terms of what remains of its history Limerick is far superior to Cork in every respect. Almost everything in Cork is 19th and 20th century. There isn’t a single block in Cork, let alone a street, that can compete with the coherent Georgian streets which remain in Limerick, and the only medieval structure in Cork city is some bit of wall in the middle of a housing estate. If you look at old pictures of William Street, with its turn of the century shopfronts and sash windows, it’s really as pretty and buzzing as any street in Ireland – and for the top two thirds of the street almost all of these buildings are still there. In terms of looks and potential tourism – its riverside location, its medieval features, its Georgian buildings – Limerick outstrips anything Cork has to offer. And it is precisely this fact, that Cork is a much more pleasant city to walk around and gets so much more tourism, which highlights how tragically mismanaged and neglected Limerick is.

OK, after spending what felt like an age waiting for the bus on William Street I see what you mean about there being lots of nice buildings on the street that I had never noticed before. There are also a fair few ugly builings on the street such as the Peter Mark/GameStop bunker, Brown Thomas, Guineys, Kwik E Mart, to name a few.

The paving is working out really well but I dont like the fact that there was only one tree on the street when I saw it last.

@pigtown wrote:

The paving is working out really well but I dont like the fact that there was only one tree on the street when I saw it last.

But there is not much they can do about that. Most of the buildings have cellars that extend out under ther roadway. There is not enough soil under the footpath for the roots to bed into properly. If they planted loads of trees on the street, they would be all uprooted by the next big storm to roll in off the atlantic

John’s Square

The renovated square looks really well at night and it is especially more appealing to the eye when it is empty of parked cars.

But what’s the story with the 5 temporary traffic signs (red/white concrete bases) as the square is now some months finished?

Image Liv Kenley

@CologneMike wrote:

John’s Square

But what’s the story with the 5 temporary traffic signs (red/white concrete bases) as the square is now some months finished?

The offending works signage was belatedly removed not long before Christmas. Just the 4 or 5 months after the job was completed. :clap:

Just a pity they didn’t take away those gimmicky black bollards while they were at it. No Limerick public realm remodelling scheme is complete it seems without squeezing in as many pointless and inappropriate bollards as possible!

I understand that some kind of physical indicator is needed to denote the roadway running through the square but why not go for football shaped stone bollards rather than the rubbish that was chosen.

On a separate note. Looking at the recent City Council budget document it seems that no funding will be available for the long overdue O’Connell Street revamp until 2015. Fourteen years after the plans were first mooted. :crazy: