Carlton Cinema Development
- This topic has 280 replies, 72 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 5 months ago by
.
- Posts
@hutton wrote:
The story as headlined is making news in a summer season when this is already long since known.
Very much so
Here’s Brian Lenihan a few weeks ago on a tour of the part of the site that’s the retreat from the GPO in 1916:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoqwBZnfUqM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSOGmbpWICs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE6L3kcya_0(There’s a few comments in there about the architectural interest of the Moore Street houses, mainly in part 3, if I remember right.)
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0105/1224286779848.htmlhttp://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0105/1224286779848.html well done to dublin city council and joe o’reilly for the policy of deliberate dereliction
Its a real mess. Is this whole development site being actively managed while we await the development?Its doesn’t appear so. Even something as simple as the site notices which were plastered on every building during the planning process remain in place. The terrace along Henry Street, some of which are set for demolition (or are they? I lost track of the changes) are in terribly poor condition and have a consequent impact on the quality of the prime retail pitch. Further up O’C Street the former Royal Dublin Hotel development seems to have stopped. The big worry here is No 42, a hugely important townhouse which is half way in the process of restoration.
I never really bought into the whole National Monument status for these buildings on Moore Street. They are very poor quality in my view. The historic group advocating their protection are certainly very vocal but I’m still not convinced.
However, I really abhor this slow slide towards dereliction for large sites in the city. It is so retrograde.
Partial demolition of 1916 buildings
Madam, – For some time concerned relatives of the 1916 leaders and others have been calling for State intervention to ensure the 1916 National Monument on Moore Street is preserved and protected in its entirety. That Dublin City Council officials are party to the destruction of its surrounding buildings (Home News, January 5th) is truly astonishing.
These buildings adjoining the National Monument were singled out for special mention in the Shaffrey report on Moore Street, commissioned by the City Council, as being of historical importance. It was on foot of that report that numbers 14 to 17 Moore Street were declared listed buildings. Are the officials aware of their own reports, one wonders?
This disgraceful decision to demolish raises the following questions: 1. At what stage were these structures considered a danger to the public? 2. At whose behest was this demolition decided upon? 3. What steps were taken prior to demolition decision to warn members of the public of their dangerous condition? 4. Was any consideration given to the possibility of action other than demolition in order to render the buildings safe? 5. Are the important architectural elements of the building now in storage with a view to their reinstatement?
The city officials responsible for this drastic action are paid out of the public purse. The owner of the site and the National Monument is a Nama’d developer.
For how long more must we wait for the State to carry out its responsibility to ensure the monument is fully protected and the surrounding area developed only in keeping with its status? – Yours, etc,
JAMES CONNOLLY HERON,
The Save 16 Moore
Street Committee,
Pearse Street,
Dublin 2.
I would agree with Stephens sentiments it is disapointing that this project is not moving faster but would whilst being in complete agreement with the vital importance of the retention of no.42 as the last survivor of the streets greatest period, not share the pessimism that it will suffer any further damage; the sooner that Main Street gets filled in the better. The letter from JCH is however disapointing; this property should never have been made a National Monument in the first place as it is firstly unclear that this is the actual property where the historical footnote occurred; secondly none of the buildings are of any architectural merit and their context was destroyed by the ILAC centre pushed through by DCC in an era when it was deemed ok to demolish entire streets that today would be designated ACA to create more road space.
Thirdly in the absence of historical or architectural justification the developement which after being held to ransom by the acquisition of a single pub which was then used as a party wall issue blocker for many many years; then sees the project made to build around a couple of non-descript buildings making delivery of essential retail requirements such as an underground service deck extremely problematic.
The sooner that the letting agents can get more pre-lets done the sooner the City can move on from a gap toothed Main Street.
Is this really going to be so wonderful?
I really don’t like Dundrum Town Centre (I think it’s called), the main sample of the proposers’ work. Walking through it feels like being inside a Barbie doll’s intestines – it’s all beige plastic.
Surely we want more for our main street than this temple of commerce full of multinational chain stores?
Spot on Tighin, we can do without the beige plastic. What in Gods name is wrong with creating an urban area with proper streets and lanes, there’s a network of laneways that could be redeveloped, increase the heights and densities, something on a par with templebar could be created between moore street and O’Connel street, minus all the tourist traps and cultural pretensions. There’s a lovely cafe/bakery opened on moore street, bake all their own bread in the back, cafe de paris, not much to speak about it’s interior but it’s a good place. I’d sooner this than the UK high street invasion topped with a sky park.
There are three reasons why this area would never be Temple Bar; firstly Temple Bar is organic in that it had a lot of great built heritage to plant modern buildings into; some of Dublin’s best pubs and restaurants survived a very grim 15 years between the late 1970’s and early 1990’s; you got respect those that made it work against a very backward planning backdrop that made a central bus station the primary goal.
Secondly unlike Paris where really good office schemes are fronted by period facades and pavement cafes and other leisure Dublin is a far less mixed use City; offices were put in the docks and Dublin 2; turn the clock back to 1996, draw up a master plan and I would say it would have worked; sadly offices are oversupplied.
Thirdly bid rent; with a site that linked Henry Street the Ilac Centre and OCS no other use could possibly have competed with Retail at this location; there have been a number of proposals for this location over the past 15 years they have all been predicated on unlocking the backlands between OCS and Moore Street; why I think Chartered Land have a better proposal is that they can also work the Ilac Centre into the equation; retail is about scale; if an agent approaches a major retailer without a presence in that City region and says I have a shop the retailer looks at the City thinks about supply chain difficulties and 90% of the time says no; if the same agent says we are developing a scheme and these 5 flavour of the month retailers are already on board the chances are they will push the boat out; that is exactly how H & M were attracted to Ireland and to a lesser extent Zara who were offered a box they couldn’t refuse,
If the use is to be a shopping centre there is no-one better placed than Chartered Land to deliver it; they have the reputation with the retailers on the back of Dudrum, they promised it would would work commercially, it was top of many retailers performance tables whilst plastic was expanding and still holds upper quartile at what appears to be the bottom of the consumer cycle; I agree that architecturally Shopping Centres are never going to win a Sterling Prize but as shopping centres go Dundrum can hold its own with anything done in Europe over the past 15 years; Dublin unfortunately is not Singapore.
What needs to happen next is that pre-lets get done, the gaps in OCS get filled in, the government collect the taxes it will deliver and in the interim the vitally important heritage assets such as 42 OCS are wrapped up in cotton wool pending a restoration to rival that done on the Shelbourne. An area that needs to be thought out far more for a more experimental quarter is North Wall Quay and the unwinding of the really backward designs Liam Carroll planned; back office function offices, weak…..
Points taken. I probably didn’t word it very well though. I wasn’t suggesting an actual templebar, rather a redevelopment and enhancing of the existing laneways and roads, maybe undertaken in a similar fashion to the redevelopment of templebar by a consortium of architects, with a view to creating a fairly balnced urban area, albeit probably needing to be bolstered by some larger stores. Throw in a playground and park at ground level to. Maybe i should have used Wallaces millenium bridge to jervis luas stop as an example.
Anyway, anything other than a retail therapy clinic dropped from the sky.What you aspire to is a tried and tested winner where land values are somewhat lower; I would love to see the area behind Cleary’s i.e. the block from OCS, North Earl St, Malrborough Street and Sackville Place done as you describe; the street grain is just perfect for it.
From An Poblacht (which I refuse to link to)
Dublin City Council urges rejection of shopping mall plan for Moore Street 1916 site
TODAY’S report by Dublin City Council on the future of the near-derelict National Monument site of Moore Street – last post of the leaders of the 1916 Easter Rising before their surrender to the British Army – recommends to Heritage Minister Jimmy Deenihan rejection of a plan by commercial property developers dominated by a shopping mall.find it on a website near you….
So is a search engine.
To be honest this whole story is a joke. The buildings are in bits and are a disgrace. I bumped into a group called http://www.1916museum.ie a few weeks back who told me that they had a lease on the building from CL and were now seeking funding (as ever) to realise a museum. Lots of slick branding and flat Dublin accents (a la trade unionists) telling me about the value of the building to the city and the State. However when I asked the quite logical question as to why a group that cared so much and held a lease couldn’t even be bothered to clean up the front (and I mean just remove raggy bunting and that all that shit plastic signage), he couldn’t even humour me with an intelligent response…..oh look there’s some I know over there far far away from you.
Perhaps there is a great story to tell here but the problem is interminable and intractable and the building is a bloody disgrace (like its host street). Aul Dublin….its with O’Leary in the grave.
although Mícheál Mac Donncha and otehrs say the report was “published” yesterday I can’t find it anywhere on the DCC website. do you have link to it?
so this 1916museum.ie group are directly linked to the chartered land developers, but it also seems that save moore street group have allied themselves with the competing developer, which is a mistake imho.
ah im getting the two “james connelly”‘s mixed up
this is the group that was in the ilac http://1916rebellionmuseum.com/
which keeps the 3 buildings for musuem but knocks the new street through to moore streetits the same james connnelly that was backing this ? http://www.gaelicadventure.org/pdfs/h16.pdf
which maintain the whole street
@ StephenC….you make very cojent points.
This whole episode reeks of knee-jerk threadbare nationalism heaped upon equally vapid preservation.
The whole monument issue is really muddying the waters and in fact I’d say its the reason why we have reached a standstill. Many people, particularly politicians are afraid to do anything least the green flag is hoisted and the old chesnut of “West Britery” is thrown about!:)
C
The effects of the stalled Chartered Land project are also starting to show on the section of Henry Street from Moore Street to Henry Place/Lane? Remember this is still one of the two premier retail streets in the city and country, so could Dublin City Council at least humour the public that it cares about its condition. The quality of shopfronts and upper floors is deteriorating dreadfully and the standard of retailer is racing southward…hardly reflective of the prime retail core. The stretch is littered with site notices and the like from the planning permission stage (these are supposed to be removed within a set time) and everything is just dirty and grubby. No one seems to care….least of all NAMA it seems which I understand essentially controls the site together with Joe O’Reilly’s loanbook. The usual Irish mentality that if you let the building deteriorate so far then everyone will welcome anything you choose to do simply to see the place cleaned up.
A walk around the corner onto Moore Street makes one wonder whether they had arrived in downtown Lagos. There is simply no control whatsoever of standards along this street… Sure its lively and ethnically diverse etc, etc but does that mean it needs to be a kip? And you’re supposed to buy food here? Dublin’s authentic street market? Can we have some standards in this city? Cant we aspire to just a little more than mediocrity and making-do?
Quality businesses vie with fleapits and health hazards and we celebrate this as something worth experiencing! Its astonishing to me.
I’m sorry if I am perceived as being racially insensitive here but I just feel that there is one set of rules (rarely enforced now) for Irish property owners that simply don’t apply to ethnic businesses in many cases….whether the excuse is that the owners cannot be identified or that the staff don’t speak English at the first sight of bureaucracy I don’t know….but the Council and other agencies seem oblivious to the gulf in quality between many shall we say ‘Irish’ and ‘New Irish’ businesses.
Of course any hope at all for standards of shopfront, business interior, quality retailing on prime retail streets, mix and diversity of retail have all gone out the window in Dublin. The Council just aren’t interested. Mediocre thinking controls policy making in City Council…lowest common denominator applies. And most shop-owners or building owners just dont care any longer…its all about the bottom line and if a couple of hundred quids worth of plastic signage and a dollop of lurid pink paint with get me noticed then who gives a fuck. To rally against it is only to make oneself world-weary and depressed.
Wasn’t it all meant to be so different…
http://hughchaloner.com/dublin-city-council-retail-core-the-city-centre-retail-plan/
rewatched the tg4 doc, t o try figure out who’s who, a letter that nama was giving 250,000 to do works on the national monument was featured and questioned by nial ring
http://www.facebook.com/savemoorestreetdublin/posts/470599686315968
Public Consultation Period for Planned Works at Moore St National Monument Extended to 24 April 2013
http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2013/03/public-consultation-period-for-planned-works-at-moore-st-national-monument-extended-to-24-april-2013/what is it that they are planning to do?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
