Carlisle Pier
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I understand Richard Boy Band of the Socialist/Trotsky-ist workers party organised a protest against the proposed redevelopment of Carlisle Pier last Monday evening outside the DLR co. co. offices. Did anyone stumble across it? How many lost souls were lined up behind the red flag?
Had to laugh when I read his pamphlet which stated that the SWP demanded “that the Carlisle Pier….REMAIN accessible to all” !! The place has been boarded up since the arrival of the HSS service for gods sake !! Even when it was open the only people who could get on it were those with a ticket for the Holyhead ferry !!!
Cant wait to see how many votes RBB gets on June 11th – I dont think he will be claiming that his views are representative after the DLR electorate has its say on his policies…….
Originally posted by pragmatist
Richard Boy Bandis that he’s real name?????
Originally posted by pragmatist
Socialist/Trotsky-ist workers partyi will venture a guess that ur not a fan of that particular political viewpoint.
while not in agreement with his viewpoint at all, and not sure what he is actually trying to achieve, if he would agrue that it’s public property and therefore shouldn’t have private dwellings ( another thing i’m not too sure on is wether it’ll be sold to the developer or a construction company build it for the co.co) on it then he may have a valid arguement. not enough of one for him to actually win but still enough for people to take note and listen. voice of a minority and all that.
As an Architect and a believer that we should develop our little nation so it looks as if we are in the 21st century and not stuck back in the 18th, he needs a good kick in the arse and a short curt f**k off and take ur nonsense somewhere else but unfortunately that won’t happen. bloody democracy!:DFin, I am also a little confused about the whole public/private property issue in this example. The pier is controlled by the Dun Laoghaire Harbour Company. It is a statuatory company set up on 1997 to run the harbour. As far as I know the Harbour Company will still control the space after it is constructed upon. Do you think that makes it any clearer?
With regards to the whole idea of it being open to the public, I don’t accept the ‘its not open to the public at the moment, so therefore a mainly capital driven development is what is needed’ argument. If the space is as important as it is being promoted to be – in terms of the ‘icon’ or ‘landmark’ building of international merit status – then when it is developed it should be primarily a public facility/amenity, that people will really have a reason to come to Dun Laoghaire for.
Thanks
Phil
that’s where he has the argument alright. although there is a point even if it was private, the fact that it is a icon building would enhance the space around and therefore benefit the public. but we could debate this all day.
primarily a public space- a museum on ground floor would be termed public…and the ownership question is still out there. harbour company…is this a public body run by the l.a. or is it semi-private???
Fin, here is how they define the status of the company on their webpage: http://www.dlharbour.ie/content/company/overview.php
from the Dun Laoghaire harbour company web page
“Capital:
IR£11million Company status: Semi-State (03 March 1997)State-sponsored bodies are defined as autonomous public bodies, other than universities; they are neither temporary in character nor purely advisory in function; most of their staff come from outside the civil service. However, the government or ministers in the government appoint directors or council members to their boards or councils.
Some state-sponsored bodies are statutory corporations. A corporation set up by a statute derives its authority directly from the statute and does not, therefore, require to be incorporated as a company under the Companies Act.
CORPORATE OBJECTIVES
To enhance Dun Laoghaire’s attractiveness as a gateway for tourists to Ireland by offering state of the art berthing and terminal facilities to ferry operators at Dun Laoghaire Harbour.To maintain and enhance the recreational and amenity value of the Harbour in the interest of all of its stakeholders.
To promote investment in the Harbour.
To generate sufficient cash flow from commercial operations to provide for the long term maintenance of the Harbour and meet the dividend targets of the Department of the Marine and Natural Resources.
In order to carry out these objectives, the Company aims at all times, to be fair and equitable in its dealings with employees, suppliers and the local community. In addition it aims to provide and efficient and cost effective service to its customers.”
fair enough. private in everything but name… still makes no odds really. he’s argument is really against this company taking control of public lands and building on them when they belong to the state who in turn gave them to the management company.
i do feel however that some of the profit could be used on the other public spaces in the town as it really is profit from the sale of these lands. wouldn’t agree with it going to the coffers of the government as it affects the town citizens and should be all be used in the town and not spread around the country as it most doubtably would be. .
Not too sure what any profits will be used for. They are mainly to be used for the upkeep of the harbour as far as I know.
yeah! probably but would be nice to see them pump some money into a public square or new playground or something like that. then the public will see some resource out of what ultimately is development on public lands
There was an article in one of the papers just before the competition details were released detailing the repairs which were needed to be done to the Piers and how much it would cost (13 Million as far as I remember).
The civic plaza beside the ferry terminal is not a bad spot. There is a fruit and veg market there once a week at the moment, and it is the venue for bands during the summer festival.
http://www.archeire.com/buildings_ireland/dublin/dunlaoghaire/dunlaoghaire_ferry_terminal.html
i would hope their profits would be more than 13 mil. but civic plaza would do the trick and stop all arguments about the development. but they need to announce it.
Not too sure where your chain of thought is going here Fin? The civic plaza is well known about.
I suppose it could be. There was a sort of canopy which was in the seaward corner of it, but it got blown apart by the wind.
As part of the winning Henegan.Peng submission it is proposed to put a band stand floating off the end of the peir, I assume there will be a shift of these sort of activities from this plaza to the end of the pier.
Does anyone know if Henegan.Peng discussed their Carlisle Pier project at the RIAS Convention?
The Pier deal is essentially a PPP. If private finance does not get involved in schemes such as this ( as well as Greystones harbour, Fatima Mansions etc) then they simply wont happen. The various local authorities, semi-state companies dont have the resources to build them. Simple.
What the ‘anti-privatisation’ lobby want is a 100% publicly funded amenity. This aint gonna happen because the good people of DLR co. co. and their counterparts in every other county in Ireland are not going to stomach hugely increased taxes/rates/charges to facilitate non-commercial follies.
Once this was realised, the job of the harbour company was to make sure they achieved a balance between the public good and the requirement of the private sector to make a profit. Personally, I think they did a good job. They have (presumably) safeguarded the maintenance of the harbour going forward, they have secured a Nationally significant marine life centre, and they have ensured that the pier will be opened up as a promenade and publicly accessible space. All at a cost to the taxpayer of approximately €0.
What the trots cant stomach is that someone is going to make a profit from this. What they fail to realise is the benefits which will accrue – increased employment, increased commercial rates for the council, new public space, world class architecture, sustainable transport use etc, etc.
Its about time some of the sheep (sorry – politicians) who purport to represent Dun Laoghaire, got off their rumps and started espousing the merits of sensible developments such as the one proposed for Carlisle Pier.
All true Pragmatist, but the last PPP in Dun Laoghaire was the Pavillion, which, as I think I have said on this same site before, has been an economic success, and has rejuvenated that area of the seafront, but is not exactly the most public of facilities.
Phil,
A few days ago I spent a very pleasant hour and a half having Sunday lunch at the pavilion. I would say there were about 200 other members of the “public” enjoying the fine weather at the cafes, restaurants and bar along its lenght. There were no barriers to access and the ‘public’ who werent eating or drinking were strolling happily by with prams or pets… I didnt sense any undercurrent of resentment or anti-privatisation angst and nor would I expect to.
Are you saying that the Pavilion development is some sort of capitalist trojan horse which has failed the “public amenity” test because commerce takes place on it to the exclusion of the masses? If so then you might as well argue that South Anne Street has failed the public because you have to buy a sandwich in Cafe Java before they let you sit down !!!!
If every site is to be turned into a gallery/museum/library/public open space etc then we will all become very bored indeed visiting one dimensional attractions. There is only so much culture that the “public” can handle – we all need a little retail and leisure from time to time…. !
What the current proposal for the Carlisle Pier offers is a diversity of experience, a balance of uses, and an invite to the public to explore the space. What the Carlisle Pier anti-privatisation lobby fail to understand is that a fixation on purely ‘public’ utilisation of available space does not make for very good Public Space’s……..
I don’t understand the argument.
Carlilie Pier was never public property – when the terminal was open you couldn’t just wander into it unless you had a ticket for the boat. Since the terminal closed you cannot wander into a decaying shed.
Just what sort of a public amenity is/was it?
Originally posted by pragmatist
Phil,A few days ago I spent a very pleasant hour and a half having Sunday lunch at the pavilion. I would say there were about 200 other members of the “public” enjoying the fine weather at the cafes, restaurants and bar along its lenght. There were no barriers to access and the ‘public’ who werent eating or drinking were strolling happily by with prams or pets… I didnt sense any undercurrent of resentment or anti-privatisation angst and nor would I expect to.
Are you saying that the Pavilion development is some sort of capitalist trojan horse which has failed the “public amenity” test because commerce takes place on it to the exclusion of the masses? If so then you might as well argue that South Anne Street has failed the public because you have to buy a sandwich in Cafe Java before they let you sit down !!!!
If every site is to be turned into a gallery/museum/library/public open space etc then we will all become very bored indeed visiting one dimensional attractions. There is only so much culture that the “public” can handle – we all need a little retail and leisure from time to time…. !
What the current proposal for the Carlisle Pier offers is a diversity of experience, a balance of uses, and an invite to the public to explore the space. What the Carlisle Pier anti-privatisation lobby fail to understand is that a fixation on purely ‘public’ utilisation of available space does not make for very good Public Space’s……..
Pragmatist,
I do not object to any of what you are saying I do object to. What I do object to is the fact that the Pavillion was built on a public park. At least 60% of it is now occupied by private use functions. There is not one public bench within the whole complex. The Metals on to which it fronts is gradually being dominated by the restaurant furniture, and is becoming increasingly difficult to walk past. You simply cannot compare South Anne Street to the Pavillion Complex. South Anne Street is a commercial shopping street. The pavillion was meant to give something back to the public. The problem is that we have become so used to this that we now accept it as the norm. I fully agree that a certain amount of commercial activity is needed to make a place lively. I recently walked down the main shopping street in Plymouth during the evening and only passed about 3 people. There were no restaurants etc. open and therefore no activity. What makes a good public space is a mixture of uses, as you also agree. That is something which to my mind the Pavillion does not offer.
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