carlisle pier shortlist

Thanks Paul,

I’d been looking for these pics last week and couldn’t find them anywhere.

The two foreign submissions really are streets ahead of their blander rivals.

It is so hard to choose between them, I think the Skidmore proposal could be better but it is very hard to tell without seeing the cladding in more detail. It really has a gehry feel to it.

But either way the city is going to be a lot better off of Dunlaoire gets either of these two proposals.

There could be alot of public opposition to the winning project, depending on how much authentic public space and usage is included in the proposal. There is alot of disquiet amongst some of the residents of Dun Laoghaire over the way the Pavillion site was developed. In that case a public park was given over for development in return for public facilities. As is evident from the outcome, public facilities come at a high price.

Do Scott Tallon Walker ever design anything that isn’t in box form? Do they employ primary school kids to do all their work for them or something?

Catch 22 – Awards ups wrong thread

By the way the HengPeng illustration is particularly crude with poor attempt to resolve the photoshop photo pasteup at the base.

I agree

There is no way that two of the four entries shortlisted would have got this far without previous awards.

Originally posted by shadow
By the way the HengPeng illustration is particularly crude with poor attempt to resolve the photoshop photo pasteup at the base.

It is nice to see a baddie shoved in now and again, it is more human. . .

Not everything should come up to spanking new and best Bolton Street/Queens/UCD best CADCO standards.

🙂

Be a very strange world if it did.

The best visualisation isn’t the best visualisation – it is the ‘good enough’ visualisation – the same one that took 4 hours instead of 4 weeks, cost nothing and still got some of the point across.

What has happened to people nowadays, because freehand rendering has gone.

Everything has to be paid professional nowadays…. the most of that being done by Phillipinos in sweat shops now, under cutting prices over here. THey are brilliant at that in Asia – it is all the hours they spend glued to playstations.

Nasty, old world the CG visualisation thing is getting.

The first 2 are quite striking ….the last 2 are just ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
Typical of Scott Tallon Walker …what a horrendous proposal.

null

refering to the four pictures above… the top two are more interesting yes. as for the bottom two, bland and boring. it would be a waste if we saw either of the bottom two go up. the area is a good location for a landmark structure. let us hope that they make good use of the area and that the final results are something we can be proud of. you are right greg f when you say zzzzzzzzzz in relation to the last two pictures. lol

christ, i know its a pier and all the rest, but could anyone go beyond the concept of lashing a boatish structure up there?liebeskinds is predictable, merrills is too trendy (rip off of liebeskind) tallons is ghastly and too simplistic, and heneghan pengs looks underdeveloped. i’d say give it to them all for another 6 months and let them create a proper building.

and is it just me or does the side of merrills look like a grossly enlarged bitmap rather than windows and texture of any significance?

One of the submissions which was discarded had been modelled on an old style ship equiped with funnels and all!!! There was an article in the Irish Times outlining how they had requested information on why their project was disregarded!!

Is the sky in Dun Laoghaire like that all the time?
How about an overcast day and buildings speckled with seagull droppings…

The way Libeskind’s rises from the water is very effective – immediately it’s no longer a conventional pier.
It’s impossible to differentiate between it and Skidmore & Co without more surface/material detail.
The worst aspect of Scott Tallon Walker’s is the chunky conventional base, clad in granite no doubt.
What’s to go into this pier, is the hotel still part of it?

With this competition it must be remembered that the design competition forms only one part of a comprehensive urban renewal strategy.

The vision behind the Dunlaoirghe stategy was to use the Southern French model based upon seafront development.

An attempt to harness the leisure potential of the sea as catalyst for ancilliary development.

In this context I think both Liebskind and Skidmore have designed very good submissions. As they are both cutting edge modern while keeping an overall maritime theme.

The setting is traditional maritime and to design anything less striking would fail to give the building a landmark status.

Both designs are excellent and have highlighted the lack of ambition amongst some of the largest practices in Ireland.

Between the redevelopment of the park into the pavilions and this project Dunlaoighre is finally re-emerging is Dublins most important suburb.

Originally posted by Diaspora

Between the redevelopment of the park into the pavilions and this project Dunlaoighre is finally re-emerging is Dublins most important suburb.

Diaspora, I really think that the Pavillion is not as much of a good thing as you seem to think. The park, which as the town becomes more built up over the years would have served as an important public space, was obliterated for the benefit of what is mainly private gain. As I stated in an earlier reply to this thread, I really think that the lack of truly public facilities in this development is going to work against the development of the Carlisle Pier.

I am not normally in favour of the elimination of public spaces such as parks. But in the case of Dunlaoighre it is a well planned victorian town with an abundance of public open spaces.

The major mistakes that Dunlaoighre made over the past decade has been that DLRCC did not provide sufficient commercial space in the heart of Dunlaoire to provide a viable employment cluster.

The granting of permission for apartments at Salthill and the former harbour market site were critical errors. Both of these sites should have been zoned office and thus provided both a rates base and employment to support local businesses. In the absence of this Sandyford which is not well served by public transport has fullfilled this role. I would contend very badly.

I welcome the pavillion because it provided commercial space in what is an area with little or no development land remaining.

I do however agree that a substantial level of access to this project is essential. But as it stands the Carlisle pier provides 0% access and 0% amenity.

Both buildings appear quite flexible in their permissable use, it would of course be essential that public access be provided by way of observation space and I would imagine that any cafe would be a commercial success on an unprecedented scale.

I am not sure as to which spaces you are referring to, but for example the green space on front of the Royal Marine Hotel is highlighted in the latest development plan as being suitable for development. This is private land so the owners are entitled to do this as long as they get permission. My point about the Pavillion is that although the commercial space has been a success in uniting the town with the seafront, the building of the apartments as part of the overall scheme was an error in that it disposed of the green space which had the most potential for rejuvenation within the town.

The impatient developer is a dangerous thing, I agree that this was not the ideal spot for apartments, the pavillion as you pointed out united Dunlaoighre harbour with the town again.

Which was entirely necessary as the stock of buildings on Marine Road did little to attract pedestrian traffic.

I have seen similar schemes in other places although on a smaller scale and generally in much warmer climates.

They have all provided a high degree of public access as recreational retail tends to dominate this type building. It is for that reason that I am confident that access will not be a problem, as the rents acheivable from cafes and bars would exceed any other use.

I would imagine the only way to live in this scheme would be to arrange a long term rate in the inevitable hotel in the scheme. This space would be too expensive for large numbers of apartments.

With these computer skills I may even get a job designing the images for this competition:D

😮

😉

Very dodgy Computer

Dodgy Computer

Celeron 500

From The Irish Times…..

Public to get say on plan for Carlisle Pier
Tim O’Brien

Scale models of the four shortlisted proposals for the redevelopment of Dún Laoghaire’s Carlisle Pier are to go on public display in the port on Friday.

During the exhibition, visitors will be asked to fill in comment cards indicating their preference and the cards and other submissions will then be assessed and a recommendation made to the harbour board.

The board will also consider the recommendation of a panel of experts and a final decision on the winning project is to be made in March.

Why not all get down to the exhibition and have your say…
I dunno how much sway the publics opinion will have with the judges but I suppose there’s no use complaining afterwards if a crowd of conservatives have attended the expo and we end up with a box!!

Sorry that last paragraph was mine!

the pictures in the times article are different and show that the som design has a public walk along the roof, which i have to say is really cool.

Notjim, the picture of the SOM project in the Irish Times is confusing me slightly. It makes it appear as though there is a marina behind it, which there is not. It is very hard for me to explain, but if you look at it closely you will see what I mean. I am not talking about the marina which presently exists on the other side of St. Michaels Wharf, I am talking about the space between the Carlisle Pier and the East Pier. If you look at the photo, the space behind it looks odd. It does not look like what is really there. Maybe the negative for the photo got reversed!?

your right phil, if you look at the hennigan-peng you can see the backgrounds are mirror images.

Are you suggesting Phil, Skidmore’s may not be too familiar with the site. That would explain the ghosted image of St Marks behind their scheme on the website?

http://www.pixar.com/featurefilms/index.html

I’ve been trying to think what the Libeskin proposal reminds me of……it’s the shark with the complex in “Finding Nemo”

Very appropriate.

It is an extremely adventurous design.

It would not be unfair to compare it to a shark, but the one quality it has, is that the structure appears to interact with the water very well. Both STW and HP designs feature a plinth design which neither got right.

It also looks like a bow of a boat

………once, while fishing off Inishturk a basking shark past beneath the bow of my boat.

Biggest fucking thing I ever saw.

It was not my intention to suggest that, but I really cannot make head nor tail of that photo. Where did you see the photo with St Marks in the background? Was it on the SOM web page, because I could not find the project on their webpage, or was it on the Dun Laoghaire Harbour page?

Alan, Just looked at the picture on the Dun Laoghaire Harbour Website. Is what you were referring to as St Marks possibly the Town Hall Clock Tower (which is Venetian in its design)?

Originally posted by alan d
………once, while fishing off Inishturk a basking shark past beneath the bow of my boat.

Biggest fucking thing I ever saw.

same happened to me off ballycotton. cept my boat was 12 feet long and i swear to god it took 30 seconds for the thing to swim by. hoooooj

I simply think Phil, that Skidmore’s proposal as shown on the attached web image is so non site specific that it could indeed be St. Marks in the background.

“Quick shove in the tower, lads”

Is that also the sun setting in the south?

Do ya think sw101, it could have been the same big b***ard? Scary innit?

The web image at the start of this thread that is, Phil.

…that almost all the proposals are a sort of alike. They are ship shapes. Is that a coincidence, or it’s just request.

Alan, on closer inspection I think you have a point. The tower is in the completely wrong place and is completely out of scale. I am going to reserve my final judgement, however, until I see the models and get more information on Friday.

Good idea to wait, Phil. I think also that the Hennigen.Peng scheme must surely be better when you see the full presentation.

Though the Scott Tallon Walker proposals look dull and insensitive to the location, don’t know how that can improve by seeing the total presentation, myself.

Ship shapes, eh? for a pier? and a shark? who’d have thought it?

when will the presentation be published?

The models are going on display in the Ferry Terminal in Dun Laoghaire on Friday I think.

oh my god…

just saw the images…

the SOM design… well, did i miss something, but when did they start copying libeskind? maybe after they lost the WTC..

as for libeskinds It is REPULSIVE. nuff said

STW, never thought i’d say this, but from the renderings it’s my favourite. if it was executed well then it could be beatiful, however i have no faith in STW to execute it well.

H.penn, from the baby infants rendering its hard to say whats going on

to be fair, i’m only judging from one image per project, but all signs point to either
a) mediocrity
b) a ‘daring, new design statement’ which is in fact only a nod to design trends that were fashionable 10 years ago

shame

I really like the SOM submission and I too would like to see it clarified both in relation to what the outer cladding is and it’s relationship with the town hall.

I would hope that the models can give a better feel than a picture from one angle.

But I think both SOM and Liebskinds designs are great and would if they provided access be a very welcome addition both as a recreational amenity and to the built environment.

Libeskind’s and SOM’s proposals could be anywhere, Diaspora. Indeed Skidmore’s walk on roof is almost ten years old and a rip off of Piano’s copper fronted science centre in Amsterdam.

Cliche, cliche cliche.

Henegan. Peng are the team, despite the poor graphics……… unless of course Ireland and Scotland are more alike than I first thought and you would rather gift it to a celebrity or an international architect third team than the “local” architects.

Be brave……. tell the other two to fuck off and Scott Tallon Walker, hard luck.

Looking at Hennigan Peng again it does have a certain quality and I like the materials used on the usable floors.

But the green pediment puts me off it completely, I also don’t like the way it appears to be divided into 16 sections.

It is also unclear if the green base is usable or not.

I don’t mean to be over critical as it is good and a lot better than most of the other entries I am sure.

I like the SOM & Liebskind submisions be they influenced by a high quality building in Amsterdam or not.

Bus, can we set up a vote for this?

i for one would support the Heneghan Peng proposal. anyone with me?>

I can see a connection with the context and the town in Hennegan. Peng that I certainly cannot see in either Libeskind’s or Skidmore’s.

I think there is a story attached to the green base and that interests me, Diaspora.

hennigan_peng: the image does look very childish but then again who cares at the end og the day. it’s the design that matters. not too sure about the block formats. a close up might reveal something smart.

s/t/w: i actually like this. i know they do this block format a lot but if behind the glass shell they did something interesting then it would be very good. has potential.

libesking: it does look like the shark alan was talking about. it’s a very busy building. but i like. internally and how the spaces work that will be the judge. it may start a revolution in dun laoghoire.

skidmore: trying to hard to be gehry without the understanding. if the front of the ship was just a structure that the building was placed behind then we may be talking. has some potential but i don’t think should win it.(ok i meant gehry like not like his work itself)

just my little opinion…agree/disagree at will!

All the entries need further clarification, I think it is a real pity that the SOM proposal didn’t link their drawings better.

I am not sure that Dunlaoire has a very rigid context. It could probably accomodate any one of those designs.

The real question is which one best suited?

It makes a refreshing change having the option to discuss this standard of project

I am not sure if that link with the town which is in the Henegen Peng design is realistic or not. It looks a little impossible, but again I am going to have to wait to see the models on Friday.

Yeah I support you sw101

In my view, if Skidmore’s or Libeskind did a pier proposal for Oban, or Margate or Melbourne or Baltimore or Wigan it would look like this.

Got to mean something more to the town. I think

Originally posted by alan d

Got to mean something more to the town. I think

I agree with you Alan

it’s true it probably fits anywhere in the world. it doesn’t take from the design though. and i dunno if it needs to reflect to the town though. sometimes it’s best to start again. they want a landmark so why link it? i’m not saying that it has to be different just putting across that something completely different might be the order of the day. a building like this may open people’s minds to change/difference. and it’s true they need to show more than the images before we can really take each building seriously.

Do any of the proposals relate to the existing setting?

I thought the idea was to create a landmark building that would attract attention and create a new focal point.

I don’t know any of the other towns listed but I would very much doubt that any of them would have a harbour the size of DunLaoirghe.

By reason of the harbour scale I think that both designs would work well regardless of where the buildings were designed.

yeah sw101, i think i may have to go with libeskind for the time being. hopefully stw will be able to create some strange shapes in their glass box but i think that is unrealistic unfortunately.

Diaspora, I think Dun Laoghaire is one of the largest artificial harbours in Europe. It was at one stage anyway, not too sure anymore

It is certainly the best harbour of its type I’ve ever seen. Credit must go to the Harbour redevelopment board for the project.

I think that a quality landmark building is an absolute must for Dunlaoirghe. Something to give a leisure bias back to the harbour. Because as it stands it is the Ferry terminal that dominates.

Fair play regardless of which design is selected I am sure that atleast three of the four will win many admirers.

Dunlaoirghe is the real winner

I can see a connection with the town in the Hennegen Peng and I suppose the Scott Tallon Walker scheme. In proportion and mass and segmentation.

Oh, I’m not saying that it has to mirror the town but it should suggest to you that it is in someway intellectually or physically connected. The town, landscape, seascape, landform should act as stimulus. It is unique.

Sorry lads, but im my view it reduces the standing, quality and rigour of creating a landmark building for a particular place if it could be replicated in any number of locations.

For what it is worth, here is what the Council set out as being the building they are looking for on the Carlisle Pier.

“Due to the unique importance of the location of the disused Carlisle Pier, it is an objective of the Council, that the redevelopment of this site will result in an exceptional landmark building of international architectural quality that regenerates and enlivens the waterfront. The landmark building must incorporate uses that will bring significant cultural, social,
recreational and economic benefits to the Nation and to Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown. The landmark building must include a major public cultural attraction of National importance. The landmark building must provide for significant public accessibility and permeability, with walkways, viewing areas and public spaces throughout. The landmark building should integrate with the immediate built environment and should provide improved accessibility between the development and Dun Laoghaire town centre. The architectural character of the landmark building should be such that the image it portrays would be a reflection of its use and unique maritime setting and become a symbol of both the Nation and Dun Laoghaire.”

i guess from the little i’ve seen i am attracted to the som and the hennigan-peng because they are the most permiable, all the buildings include public access and public use, but only these two have outdoor open access along the pier.

It should be remembered that the process also included for a development at zero cost to the authority. The cost of redeveloping the pier (significant cost for repair alone) means that all of the schemes are over wrought.

As for the poll, can we have a “none of the above” option?

Was there any other entry that you feel should have been included in the shortlist?

i think that maybe my office…someone else sent around an internal email saying to vote so everyone logged on at the same time

are they!!! hmmm… not my particular choice…how and ever… 🙂

no asked around..doesn’t seem to be us….

they look a hell of a lot better but still not my choice

I think they give an unrealistic view of the finished product as they are all effectively aerial shots. It may just look like an ordinary flat faced office block from the ground level!!

All of the submissions are disappointing. The brief is very open and i am concerned that this is the best that can be come with.

The STW proposal is really boring, and is all the more so as Michael Scotts own house an interesting peice of 1950s is across the bay. Not much of an epitaph. The HP scheme has real merit but does not understand the site. From the top down it looks great, but it is slab like from both side and as such will look huge and dominating so it’s a right off. The SOM design is again a large unbroken slab albeit pointy at one end. The DL proposal is the best but again lacks real vision, and is quite gimmicky.

I have read all the conversations about Dun Laoghaire, and for any of you that know it. It was a hole up until recently, and now it is expressing the confidence in itself to become perhaps a great centre for architectural and urban heritage in Ireland. So roll on imaginative and good architecture.

The one comment i would make is that Dun Laoghaire is a town dominated by spires, and hence it’s skyscape is really relevant. I would have like to have seen a building that had greater points of height. I hardly dare say it but why not something like sails aka Utzon Sydney Opera house but brought up to date.

I think that the area just outside the entrance to the Stena terminal always seems very empty and unused. Nobody seems to use the seating area.
I also think that the town seems very devoid of life at night. It reminds me of the IFSC once the office workers have left!

Just a note about the visuals contained on the site – I think Scott Tallon Walker is best because it looks more realistic. Not that I’m an actual fan of the building they’ve come up with – but the vosual is more grounded in reality than the others.

The others are very cartoony and I don’t think provide a goob visual basis with which to judge them.

That revised Heneghen.peng image is stunning. Why did they submit the other rendering it bears no relation to the latest.

Liebskind’s looks very user freindly if not a little gimmacky in the second rendering. I am dissapointed by the aditional angles supplied by SOM as they don’t clarify many of the questions raised in the first rendering. It is still a great design although HP has closed the gap a lot. STW still in the blocks I’m afraid for me.

Originally posted by Diaspora

Dunlaoirghe is the real winner

Having lived in the Borough for the last twenty odd years, it still gets under my skin when people refer incorrectly to Dún Laoghaire. I commend you Diaspora for coming up with a version combing Bearlachas and bad spelling that I have not seen before.

Reminds me a couple of foreigners coming off the boat mystified at the road signage. “How the fuck did the get Done Leary out of that?”

tigger, never confuse bad spelling with ignorance.

Relax a little Trigger it is still better than Kingstown!!;), I have lived there for 25 years, and I too prefer the proper spelling but as I am a terrible speller myself I find I can never give out about it too much.

I quite like the Libskind design and the Henegen.Peng design. They both seem to give real open public space as part of their proposal. My only problem is that when I was looking at the Libskind design I noticed that one of the buildings within it is called ‘the sail’. For some reason this really bothers me. The only problem with the Henegen.Peng design for me is that it seems to ignore the existance of the seafront road as it makes its link to Moran Park. The Libeskind design seems to be the only one which as really thought about this link in a realistic manner by the use of a bridge. I think, however that the extra building within the Park takes away from the Libskind design a little.

phil, i couldn’t see from the pictures where the libskind provided open public space, have you seen the models? how does public space work out for the libskind design.

Yeah, Notjim I went to look at the models the other day. The pictures don’t give a realistic vision of what the projects look like. I thought, for example, that the Libskind and SOM projects looked quite similar until I saw the models. The Libskind one is made up of a few separate structures with open space in between them, where as the SOM one is a large scale structure with public access to the roof!

The Carlisle Pier competition is a DEVELOPMENT competition as opposed to a purely architectural one. The winning scheme will have to be financially viable while giving an income stream to the harbour authority as well as keeping the public happy – I exclude Richard Boyd Barrett and his mates from ‘the public’ as they wont be happy unless a shrine to marxist ideology is placed on the pier.

Here are a few issues worthy of debate above and beyond the aesthetic ping-pong that this board loves indulging in…

1.
the SOM scheme appears to be twice as dense as the others. Do the supporters of this scheme want to write a blank cheque to the developers? We might get a funky rooftop walkway but it looks like the developers get about 300 apartments which would likely retail for half a mil each – you do the math…

2.
has anyone noticed that the Liebeskind scheme extends way beyond the development ‘red line’ and is nearly twice as wide as the other schemes? Remember, the reason for the baths debacle was as a result of the winning scheme ignoring the site boundary hence allowing the losing shemes to threaten legal actions. Also, is it a coincidence that this is the only scheme without a contractor on board? Landmarks are great except when you have to pay for them (Scottish Parliament for eg) and the harbour company need to be really really sure that the scheme can be built for the budget proposed. Finally, can anyone see a ‘diaspora museum’ attracting sufficient numbers to be self financing? Again the harbour company want a viable cultural attraction, not an albatross around their necks.

3.
The STW scheme is indeed boring but you can bet your last euro that its eminently ‘buildable’. The development mix seems appropriate also.

4.
The HP scheme also has a sensible development mix and is a more attractive building than the STW scheme although i think the design needs some more development. I like the permeability of the scheme – its the only one that allows the pier to remain a pier.

just to re-iterate, the Liebeskind and SOM schemes (and to a lesser extent HP’s design) will no doubt appeal visually to the people visiting the exhibition but he decision is not going to be based principally on design. The current public consultation is potentially cosmetic to a large extent as the assessors will be making a decision based on commercial considerations in the main. If Im right its a straight decision between the STW and HP schemes and if all other things are equal the HP design will win out cos its more attractive.

The real world is a harsh place…..

Pragmatist, that is a good point you make about the Diaspora Museum. I too have doubts about its viability. With regards to the public consultation being cosmetic, I am not sure if the outcome would be either of the two you mentioned. Just remember who they originally had to draw up plans!

Are the developers with Libskind not called Heritage Properties?

Phil,

the harbour company didnt have Liebeskind draw up the original plans – heritage properties ‘took a punt’ and made a proposal to the harbour company which ultimately triggered the competition. Heritage have not built anything of this scale before and are best known as the developer of smithfield apartments. At least there is some cetainty that Laing O’Rourke, Pierse and Sisk can deliver the other schemes and are sure to have seriously scrutinised the costs/programmes involved. Heritage cannot be said to have the same capability as the above contractors and if I was on the assessment panel I would be worried about this given that theirs is easily the most complex scheme from a construction point of view.

That’s fair enough Pragmatist. I was under the impression that the board sought after the proposal originally. I stand corrected.

The link below, and the link which follows from it, seems quite relevant to the Carlisle Pier.

http://canada.archiseek.com/news/2004/000044.html

I went along to view the entries on Saturday and have a few comments:

1. The so called cultural component of each entry is nearly farcical!! diaspora museum, centre for irish culture and rehousing the maritime museum. In my opinion none of these would attract significant numbers into the developments leaving the private offices and hotel to the money paying customers! (just as the developers would want!!)

2. The scale of the STW and HP entries is far too large and would only serve to split the seafront, destroying the view out over the bay for most of dunlaoghaire.

3. The amount of public spaces in each was dissapointing, the Liebeskind and SOM have integrated good usable spaces into their designs and linked them back to Morans park across Queens Road, ideal for (small) concerts etc.

4. the STW entry was as as innovative as any five story box down the IFSC! time to think outside the box lads!! On this basis I would disagree that some of the entries do not reflect the style of the area. Dunlaoughaire hasnt got any predominant style through it – its a mish mash of bad planning and unimaginative architecture!

Has anyone else visited the exhibition and seen the full presentations? BTW the foreign entries had far superior presentations and models, which may sway the public opinion.

Originally posted by Ocean33
Dunlaoughaire hasnt got any predominant style through it – its a mish mash of bad planning and unimaginative architecture!

Although there are some significanly terrible pieces of and unimaginative examples of architecture such as the shopping centre, the town itself is well layed out. There are also some excellent examples of architecture in the town such as:

The original Railway terminal (Presently Restaurant Na Mara), Royal Irish Yacht Club, the original Town Hall building and the extension to the town hall building.

I agree with you that the foreign presentations and models are alot better. At the time that I was there I noticed how few people seemed to be looking at the STW submission.

i think people are getting sick of seeing boxes. i know i am.

I stood at the STW model for a while on Saturday and the first word out of the mouths of a lot who passed was ‘boring. In fact one person even apologetically said, “I’m sorry but this is boring!”

Isn’t that some progress for the Country to be able to class that design as boring.

I agree that the STW design is the most muted of the four, and is against the other three ‘boring’.

But if someone proposed that before thye competition I wonder how many people would have said no you can’t build that its boring.

Honest and unambitous would be fairer I think.

Just a question on the SOM proposal. Will the sloped public area on the roof not be extremely dangerous?

I can just see people careering all over this in wet or icy weather. And what about access for the disabled? This would be almost totally inaccessable for a wheelchair bound person. (I know I wouldn’t like to be perched at the high end with bad brakes.)
This was actually my favourite design. I liked the ideas but I don’t know how they will work in reality.

The STW was like a shoebox and the internal layout of the apartments and hotel bedrooms looked as if it was an effort to squeeze in as many as possible. They are all box shaped and exactly the same.

Overall I was disappointed that car parking was allowed in the scheme.
For a second when I saw the SOM proposal I thought it was a glorified multi-storey carpark.
I think with the DART so close by they should promote that for access to the centre

emf, I was also thinking that. I went to see the exhibition on Saturday when it was blowing a force 9 gale in Dun Laoghaire. I emmedietly started to think about that. It is difficult not to get blown away on the seafront in Dun Laoghaire sometimes as it is, so with people elevated that high in the air they will be completely exposed to the wind no matter what its direction is. A good indication of the force of the wind in Dun Laoghaire at times is the shape of some of the trees on the seafront; in the area around the east pier they have all bent towards the town because of northerly winds over the years.

Technichally speaking, it would have been possible until recently to bring the Dart in to what ever project got the go ahead. However the tunnel from the Railway line to the Carlisle Pier is half blocked now because of strenghtening work. It probably would have been too big an aspect of the project to have been worth it anyway, considering how close the station is.

Just another bad example of what computer are likely to generate as designs. Sort of like radio friendly tunes in music – sometimes computers images are very seductive.

http://www.nikclark.com/uploader/uploads/cubist.jpg

To quote Radiohead “Just because you feel it doesn’t mean it’s there”.

Ah a music head! 🙂

Young architects are often major big into their music, and despite being around architects for a large portion of my life – i am tone deaf – meaning this world of music is something I know nothing about.

Although the Poll is showing Henegen.Peng and Libeskind as clear favourites amongst people who view this site, what do people think is the most likely scheme to get the go ahead? I personally think that realistically speaking the Libeskind design will be chosen. I think this because he is presently, whether we like it or not, a ‘household name’ of architecture. the design brief sets out that the building has to be an “exceptional landmark building of international architectural quality that regenerates and enlivens the waterfront.”
I think that the fact that it aims for the building to be internationally recognised indicates that it will chose an international hard hitter. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying it should win, I am just trying to see exactly what it is that they are looking for. The other way of looking at it is that Henegen.Peng are presently building a strong international reputation and the Harbour Company might decide that it would be a good idea to promote their work. I also realise, as Pragmatist pointed out, that the Libeskind design goes over the specified limit by widening the pier, so is likely to come under scrutiny from the public and other areas. The reality of it though is that which ever project is chosen is likely to be very controversial.

Sorry nothing exceptional here from any perspective

Et tu, Brute

what I think, is that the likes of Gehry, Libeskind, Koolhaas and other ‘big named architects’ having created a very recogniseable form of expression – have basically had to go and trawl about the globe looking for nice old urban settings into which to place there designed objects.

I.e. That the big named architects really do subsist upon that nice prime corner site, on a grand old river, in an historic old urban context, somewhere in Europe or elsewhere, to really become the most fitting ‘mantlepiece’ for one of their cool looking hand made presentation models.

We as cities around Europe and elsewhere have facilitated these architects with very nice ‘mature sites’ to build these objects on. You will find a lot less going in the opposite direction, (Europe to America) except perhaps Zaha Hadid attempting to build in Cinncinati city centre or something.

Which is really a ‘second prize’ for someone who is quite a good architect, but has to travel around the ‘hinterlands’ and remote outposts of the architectural world in search of things/places to build.

Not discounting that Cinncinati were glad to get a profiled public figure such as Hadid to build in their city – I compare the situation in modern architecture at the moment, to when ‘gladiators’ were banned in Rome – in the film after that same name.

Architects like Zaha Hadid in that sense have become the ‘Russel Crowe Maximus’ characters of the empire – striped of their former ranks and busy fighting scraps in the remote colonies of civilisation just to stay alive, without a fitting stage for their talents.

I am thinking here in terms of the Cardiff competition etc, etc, etc. If that had been built, would the world of architecture now be a very different place? Recent signs like the Cairo project are promising I think.

EMF in his analysis of the SOM proposal asks the following question

“. And what about access for the disabled? This would be almost totally inaccessable for a wheelchair bound person.”

Could this really be true?

Yeah, it looks very steep all the way up and looks like it has steps as opposed to it being a ramp. It does not seem very practical. I must go and have another look, as I am not fully sure about it. I honestly think it looks a bit lethal. I would not fancy falling off the top of it!

http://www.stw.ie/projects/project.asp?id=84

Discuss

Computer & Window

http://www.archeire.com/unbuilt_ireland/dublin/carlisle_pier/hp/sunset_lge.html

I am not sure I can take any of this seriously.

Diaspora, I remember stumbling on that a while back. I did not realise it said ‘in 1989’ as its opening sentence. That would have been before the ferry stopped using it as its docking space. I had no idea this plan went so far back!

Thanks

Phil

It think that must be 1999 as the word Diaspora was not used in an Irish context before Mary Robinson first used it in 1996.

Scary design all the same,

I also note that the status is still ‘ongoing’

looks kinda similiar to their new entry too. concidence??????

I thought that it was meant to have been 1999 as well but then I looked closer to see that it still has most of the causeway which used to cross over the forecourt of the Royal St. George Y.C in order to bring cars on and off the ferry. By 1999 that was gone and the forecourt for the yacht club had been extended (1997). Still unsure if it is 1989 or 1999 though!

Sorry, I have just looked again, even closer and noticed that the STW designed Pavillion is included in that model (the steps are just about visable). So, Diaspora, it must be 1999 as you said.;)

i thought that libeskind did the design in 1999?

Who it going out there tonight to look at the exhibition? Anyone already been?

Fin, Libeskind did one in either 2001 or 2002, not too sure.

Garethace, I have been in to it but I think I will go again, maybe this evening.

I remember Hugh Pearman in 2001 writing in the Irish Times that Dublin now had a chance to trump London by getting a Libeskind project.

What happened, why is it now a competition and why have STW pulled out an earlier design from their bottom drawer?

Originally posted by phil

Garethace, I have been in to it but I think I will go again, maybe this evening.

Always useful – your first impressions aren’t always as reliable as one might wish.

Alan, I think that STW design is just an old design that happens to still be on their website.

For the sake of DunLaoire it is lucky that it is only on their website and that the competition process intervened to take it off the agenda.

It is a pathetic design i.e. The 1999 design,

all of the current finalist’s designs have significant merit.

I think it proves the benefits of architectural competitions as the finer points of each design can be examined much more thoroughly once direct comparibles exist.

It also proves that all the consortia to this process rejected the 1999 design. 🙂

Silence, all is silent…. Where are all the comments? The exhibition ended on Sunday. The works only confirmed the shallowness of the approaches. Scary, but SOM looked the strongest and was illiciting the most positive views. Certainly from a massing point of view it deals with the local and Macro issues. Some of the technical submissions were woeful. Also few seemed to consider how appropriate it would be to provide open decked areas in one of the most windy places in Ireland.

Quote “The works only confirmed the shallowness of the approaches”

I too liked SOM but the models did nothing to clarify my two concerns:

1. I think the cladding could be the best ever or the worst ever depending on the materials used.

2. I couldn’t ascertain if it was fully complient with disability rights of access to all public areas.

Still all four were better than the Heuston Gate model

My views on the matter. 🙂

https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2744