Building on Sean McDermott St.
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@Devin wrote:
Great record. An incredible amount was demolished around there at that time. If the guy who took the ‘now’ photos has access to negatives for the 1980 colour photos, it would be worth getting them digitally scanned. I’m presuming the photos on the site are just scans of 4″ x 6″ prints, which were always printed slightly out of focus anyway to conceal dust.
I’ll ask him. I have a feeling the photos were just found in a box, but you never know.
Can kinda blame the late Tony Gregory and Charlie Haughey (and the Gregory deal that was done) for the demolishment of these Georgian buildings and their replacement with the awful ‘suburban style’ social housing.
OK, folk in the inner city were living in squalor in these fine old but decrepit buildings (aka tenements) of yesteryear and they needed new homes, but architectural appreciation went out the window, as it would in the hands of the culturally ignorant idiots Fianna Fail and Tony Gregory.Their track records on understanding the architectural fabric, old and new, of Dublin City was appalling!
Hence we have Sean McDermott Street and Gardiner Street looking as they do today!
(Imagine something like that happening in Europe? ..Na, and any damage that was done there can be credited to the Luftwaffe and the RAF etc…. )
@GregF wrote:
Can kinda blame the late Tony Gregory and Charlie Haughey (and the Gregory deal that was done) for the demolishment of these Georgian buildings and their replacement with the awful ‘suburban style’ social housing.
OK, folk in the inner city were living in squalor in these fine old but decrepit buildings (aka tenements) of yesteryear and they needed new homes, but architectural appreciation went out the window, as it would in the hands of the culturally ignorant idiots Fianna Fail and Tony Gregory.Their track records on understanding the architectural fabric, old and new, of Dublin City was appalling!
Hence we have Sean McDermott Street and Gardiner Street looking as they do today!
(Imagine something like that happening in Europe? ..Na, and any damage that was done there can be credited to the Luftwaffe and the RAF etc…. )
There wasn’t much appreciation of decaying Georgian Dublin within the general body of the architecture profession neither from what I have heard. An old urban design lecturer I had reckoned his whole class in the 60s in UCD hated the monotony and twee uniformity of the georgian terrace as they saw it. The same guy lived in a damp basement on upr Mount st at the time and wanted the whole D2 georgian core pulled down on health and safety grounds alone:rolleyes: I appreciate that is a bit of a stretch of a generalisation but it makes sense when you think of the protests by student architects against the destruction of Dublin are associated with the 80s onwards.
How practical would it be in the future to tear down the current detritus and re-build new Georgian streets with a number of apartments in each “house” With 4 or 5 stories are they not be a medium density elegant solution to Dublin. A common design standard could be agreed to accurately replicate the original stock with door and window dimension specs, material specs etc with stringent sign off before anything is actually built. Over the course of 40/50 years we could recreate elegant streets and clear out all the present junk allowing beautiful modern buildings to be built in outlying areas such as East Village, SoHe etc?
@pulp wrote:
How practical would it be in the future to tear down the current detritus and re-build new Georgian streets with a number of apartments in each “house” With 4 or 5 stories are they not be a medium density elegant solution to Dublin. A common design standard could be agreed to accurately replicate the original stock with door and window dimension specs, material specs etc with stringent sign off before anything is actually built. Over the course of 40/50 years we could recreate elegant streets and clear out all the present junk allowing beautiful modern buildings to be built in outlying areas such as East Village, SoHe etc?
This is where I feel the Henrietta st comp. went amidst they deserved to win but how much more valuable would an off the shelf kit planning /Georgian passive standard/ fire cert and a price calculator? I think the black men and swans know how to do row housing it just needs to be tweaked.
The Planning Department could put together a standard set of designs.
A plan put together for Dublin for redevelopment of the cities streets; as and when the buildings come up for renewal they would be replaced with these new stock buildings. The interiors could have fantastic purpose designed apartments with high ceilings. If the street furniture and greenery etc was designed similarly these could become a real urban alternative to commuting. Many of the streets could be closed to through traffic or possibly or even better have parking at the back of the the buildings with no traffic at the front whatsoever.Yes they would be mock or fake but the original Georgian buildings are simple and elegant and enchance the city why try and create something else.
Heresy, folks, heresy – and dangerous talk; this sounds too much like a streetscape. And you’ll soon have the modernistas in hot pursuit…
John, I presume by Streetscape mean artificial replicated the whole way along the street similar to what was put into Mountjoy Square and yes I agree they were of poor quality with miniature doors, incorrect materials etc but does the square not look better than if suburban legoland had been placed on one side instead.
What im advocating is a replication of what was originally there with the design standards agreed in the city centre. Pull down the ESB building and replace with excellent quality mock Georgian, once the buildings have weathered a bit the street will look far better and consistent, likewise S Mc Dermott who looks truely hideous now. The city centre could again become a beautiful place to live. There are vast parts of the city that could be residentised again.
Areas such as the Docks can be developed for the more mainly commercial use, where bigger floor plans are needed and where the imagination is allowed to excel.
pulp: I’m very much on your side, but except in very restricted circumstances I’m not a fan of ‘quality mock Georgian’ or any kind of ‘mock’ anything. That’s going down the wrong road, but building something based on ‘Georgian’ principles in terms of scale, proportion, quality of materials, relationship to context, etc. is an altogether different thing.
A good example of how not to do it is Grand Canal Square, which is capricious beyond words, but ‘works’ because of its context; located in the Georgian core it would simply be too naff and ill-mannered. A better example is the ‘Queen Anne’ development of flats on Marlborough Street built in the early 1990s; it’s not great architecture but it doesn’t insult the street either.. There are vast parts of the city that could be residentised again.
I agree with the sentiment .
We could effectively end the sprawl , bring higher density to the inner city while at the same time restoring large swathes of what are now near derelict townhouses.
How do you think we could achieve this?
Johnglas we are not totally in disagreement but the problem i see with being against mock Georgian or any other style is that the replacement would need to be better. Georgian is a simple, elegant and of medium density, and I would think very hard to improve upon. The Queen Anne development you mention is an example of why I believe this, it doent improve on the original design. The proportality but also the actual size as well as the materials used.
As the state will be coming into vast tracks of land over the next few months, it would opportune to select an area in the city, designatt a heritage conservation areas and put a master plan with street grid etc into place with very specific guidelines. Then either each street could be designed and built much as surbabn housing estates are now. The mix could include private and social units but with very high standards of maintenance. There should be a rate system which would finance maintenance and an intitial high level of security. This could be relaxed as the concept becomes accepted. As the state comes into ownership of lands a decision will have to be made what to do with them.
A developer ( if there are any left) could also instigate a development of this nature although they would need a lot of guidance.
pulp: it’s an interesting idea, but it needs to be pursued very vigorously so people will take notice. A denser but human scale of inner-city development, totally dumping Corbusian principles (these have had a long-enough run-out, with disastrous consequences) is the Holy Grail of development.
I walked along the back of this building, i.e. Railway street, yesterday and it can only be described as surreal.
I challenge anyone on this site to come up with a better example of urban dereliction from anywhere in Europe.
I walked the whole area between Buckingham street, Summerhill, Gardner street and lets be honest, it’s a massive derelict site, anything new that has been built there is worse than any Georgian slum tenement.
There are no Georgian terraced houses left, bar a few at thee beginning of Gardner street. The few left standing are basically filthy wrecks. Those photos that Tommyt send move me like they have other people.
Precise copies of these houses should have been rebuilt, or else complete restoration. This is not a serious proposition of course. What we are left with is a urben decay and dereliction that would have rivalled the Bronx in the 70’s.
As you go uptown to Hardwicke place and the church there, you will pass one slum street after another. Parnell street is the filthiest street in the world. Go up Hill street and it’s just weird, were there actually Georgian houses where those flats are ?
I have always loved Dublins derelict sites and run-down urban decay feel. But what was done to this part of Dublin is the biggest crimes against architecture and culture ever committed in in the British Isles. Phew, got that of my chest, feels good.
@shaun wrote:
I walked along the back of this building, i.e. Railway street, yesterday and it can only be described as surreal.
I challenge anyone on this site to come up with a better example of urban dereliction from anywhere in Europe.
I walked the whole area between Buckingham street, Summerhill, Gardner street and lets be honest, it’s a massive derelict site, anything new that has been built there is worse than any Georgian slum tenement.
There are no Georgian terraced houses left, bar a few at thee beginning of Gardner street. The few left standing are basically filthy wrecks. Those photos that Tommyt send move me like they have other people.
Precise copies of these houses should have been rebuilt, or else complete restoration. This is not a serious proposition of course. What we are left with is a urben decay and dereliction that would have rivalled the Bronx in the 70’s.
As you go uptown to Hardwicke place and the church there, you will pass one slum street after another. Parnell street is the filthiest street in the world. Go up Hill street and it’s just weird, were there actually Georgian houses where those flats are ?
I have always loved Dublins derelict sites and run-down urban decay feel. But what was done to this part of Dublin is the biggest crimes against architecture and culture ever committed in in the British Isles. Phew, got that of my chest, feels good.
I agree wholeheartly with your comments. The area is an absolute disgrace, as is much of the North Georgian Core.
There’s a photo in Dublin City Council’s Archive of Rutland Street Area, which shows the original building in the background.
There also one in the RTE archive taken from street level in 1953:
https://stillslibrary.rte.ie/indexplus/image/3005/024.htmlWikipedia page started with more information here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_Presbyterian_Church,_Dublin
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