British Symbolism on Buildings in Ireland
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In the Custom House in cork, the Sign for the Customs office clearly has the Prefix “HM” in recently removed letters.
Also Much of the Naval base maintains its Royal Naval heritage(and rightly so) including the sign for the Royal Naval Hospital, and the Housing with streets named after famous Royal Naval Warships.
The quite interesting issue mentioned earlier about whether or not the indigenous Irish could have surpassed the architecture of the British, seems to me to have been answered in stone.
The Bank of Ireland building, the Custom House, the Four Courts, the Kings Inns, our magnificent City Hall and formerly the Royal Exchange, domestic Georgian Dublin, the foresight of the Wide Street Commissioners..all this was the work of an Irish parliament, Irish people and Irish associations.
Anglo-Irish perhaps and Protestant by definition..but does that detract from the Irish nature of the work or the Irish nature of those hwo commissioned much of it? Does anyone here consider these buildings-these wonderous buildings-as anything other than ours?@fergalr wrote:
Anglo-Irish perhaps and Protestant by definition..but does that detract from the Irish nature of the work or the Irish nature of those hwo commissioned much of it? Does anyone here consider these buildings-these wonderous buildings-as anything other than ours?
That question demands (or perhaps risks?) a response that could be construed as political. Firstly, I do not agree with your statement that “Anglo-Irish†is Protestant by definition. In that era there were many Catholic Anglo-Irish, disparagingly called shoneens or West Brits, for their views that were seen as anti-nationalistic.
I always have believed that the reason Ireland has such a poor “Big House†stock is that the vast majority of landlords transferred most of their income/loot/ill-gotten gains (pick according to your persuasion) to maintain their lifestyle and estates off this island, particularly since the Act of Union. The subsequent lack of style in rural Ireland led to a bleakness in rural architecture; anyone who had the wherewithal to better himself had nothing to emulate or model his aspirations on. Think of the manor houses or those of yeomen in Sussex, for example, and the design impact they had on the local built environment. In the Irish vacuum there also was punitive taxation (Hearth Tax, Window Tax, Tithes, etc.), an equally punitive legislation (Penal Laws and no fixity of tenure for leaseholders) so there was not much incentive to build even a modest house. Add to that the frequent risings, invasions, rebellions, etc., and there was no incentive at all.
I agree that the great buildings from that era metaphorically are “ours†regardless of class or creed because we have inherited them in trust, to be preserved and passed on in similar or better condition. Many literally are ours because we have fought to preserve them with little or no help from anyone. It is regrettable that many Irish people rejoiced when the built heritage was burned in 1922 and there are many today who would pull down what remains because their twisted outlook regards that as a sign of British Imperialism…. it’s not so long since the “patriots” took sledge hammers to the cast-iron Victoria Fountain in Dun Laoghaire and tried to blow up the obelisk on the seafront. Not to mention poor old Nelson.
KB2Ah for all the talk of poor Nelson..it looked like a dumpy oul’ thing and, I’ll be honest, I prefer the Spike.
The statue itself would have been moved by now if not for the bombing. Nelson has no relevance to Irish people or culture. It was suggested at one stage to replace Nelson with President Kennedy or the Sacred Heart!
What does the Spire represent again? :confused:
The arms on Monaghan (?) Court House are interesting in that they show the arms used between the arrival of the Elector of Brunswick-Lueneburg in England in 1714 to the separation of Hanover from England, Ireland and Scotland in 1837.
The arms are the usual: England, Scotland, England and Ireland. Superimposed are the arms of the Duchies of Brunswick and Lueneburg and those of the Principality of Calenberg. Superimposed on these is the Crown of Charlemange indicating that the Elector of Brunswick-Lueneburg was also Arch-Treasurer of the Holy Roman Empire
Attached is a picture of the arms which are probably more German than British.
I was just musing on this topic since I read it recently and was wondering, if you took the view that buildings that were built/commisioned by/associated with an occupier or conqueror were to be demolished what effect it would have on other countries of the world. This is the likely scenario:
1. The UK.To start with we would have the removal or destruction of the baths in Bath, Hadrians Wall (Roman),Durham Cathedral and scores of other religous buildings, the Tower of London and a score of other castles-(Norman).
2.Spain:The Alhambra,The Mosque in Cordoba,Medina el Zahra,The Aljafiera in Zaragosa,The Tower of gold in Seville (to name only 5 complexes out of many).All built by Muslim conquerors
3. All the Ottoman structures in The Middle East and Eastern Europe outside of Turkey.
4.The Serbian-built, Orthodox monasteries (Sopocani. etc) of Kosovo.
5.Everything built by the Mongol Yuan Dynasty in China
7.The Taj Mahal and the thousands of other Moghul-and earlier-buildings in India.
8. The entire centre of Helsinki..built under Russian rule.Not to mention other buildings in Estonia, Latva and Lithuania like Vilnius
Cathedral,Presidential Palace and Town Hall.
9.The Hispanic Churches and palaces in Mexico at Oaxaca, Mexico City,Gualadlupe etc etc
10. Many buildings in Budapest .especially the Castle
11. Most buildings in Prague including the University,St.Nicholas in Mala Strana and most of the churches.
12. The Castel Nuovo (and doubtless other buildings in Southern Italy) constructed by The Spanish and many churches in Naples built by the French.
13. A vast numbers of buildings in South Africa..and that’s just the beginning of the possible list!
@Praxiteles wrote:
The arms on Monaghan (?) Court House are interesting in that they show the arms used between the arrival of the Elector of Brunswick-Lueneburg in England in 1714 to the separation of Hanover from England, Ireland and Scotland in 1837.
The arms are the usual: England, Scotland, England and Ireland. Superimposed are the arms of the Duchies of Brunswick and Lueneburg and those of the Principality of Calenberg. Superimposed on these is the Crown of Charlemange indicating that the Elector of Brunswick-Lueneburg was also Arch-Treasurer of the Holy Roman Empire
Attached is a picture of the arms which are probably more German than British.
Yep that is Monaghan Court House – taken before the Shinners burned it down (in an attempt to rid the building of its arms I believe)
@KerryBog2 wrote:
In the Irish vacuum there also was punitive taxation (Hearth Tax, Window Tax, Tithes, etc.), KB2
I was talking about this with the da a while back when we entered an old house with a very low doorway. While I argued that this was because people were smaller in those years due to poorer nutrition, he argued that there was a door tax. Is this right?
And how did you tax a hearth? By its homeliness?
@PTB wrote:
I was talking about this with the da a while back when we entered an old house with a very low doorway. While I argued that this was because people were smaller in those years due to poorer nutrition, he argued that there was a door tax. Is this right?
And how did you tax a hearth? By its homeliness?
At the rate of 2/- a hearth. See this for some general info.
@PTB wrote:
I was talking about this with the da a while back when we entered an old house with a very low doorway. While I argued that this was because people were smaller in those years due to poorer nutrition, he argued that there was a door tax. Is this right?
And how did you tax a hearth? By its homeliness?
Not sure about door tax but there certainly was a window tax!
People were a lot smaller – one only has to look at suits of armor to realize how small they were.
I’m not aware of there ever being a tax on doors.
Window tax was introduced in 1697. It was actually a tax on houses, scaled according to the number of windows in the house. Initially the occupier was charged 2s per year, or 4s for those with 10-20 windows, and 8s for those with more than 20 windows. In 1747 the charges were: 10-14 windows at 6d per window, 15-19 windows at 9d, and 20 or more windows at 1s. In 1825 houses with less than 8 windows became exempt. In 1851 the tax was abolished. Window tax avoidance can sometimes explain blocked windows, but blind windows could be a design feature of Georgian houses, springing from the passion for symmetry.
From http://www.building-history.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Buildings/Houses.htmKB2
they should remove all british symbols because its an absolute joke that another country has them on your own national buildings. It just highlights how deformed some of the people are in the political establishment here.
I guess everyone is forgetting Fusiliers Arch better known as “Traitors Gate” in the early 1900s. Traitors gate is the entrance to St. Stephens Green at the Grafton ST. end. This was erected to the Royal Dublin Fusiliers who fought with the British empire (1899-1902) in the second Boer war.
Like Maskhadov said…The wellington monument in the Phoenix Park. This celebrates the British victory at waterloo and it stands at 205 feet tall. The four bronze plaques are from cannons captured at the battle of Waterloo. They were then melted down and cast for this monument.
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